Leinster Squad 19-20

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blockhead
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Re: Leinster Squad 19-20

Post by blockhead »

mildlyinterested wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 11:56 am
The same could be said of Ruddock. You'd have to think both are prime candidates to leave in 2021.
I really hope Deegan stays, he adds something different than the rest but needs to beef up.
Ruddock is a prime candidate to leave I agree.
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Re: Leinster Squad 19-20

Post by CiaranIrl »

blockhead wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 12:35 pm
mildlyinterested wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 11:56 am
The same could be said of Ruddock. You'd have to think both are prime candidates to leave in 2021.
I really hope Deegan stays, he adds something different than the rest but needs to beef up.
Ruddock is a prime candidate to leave I agree.
I'd be gutted if Ruddock left. Much more so than Deegan personally. He's our only top quality out and out 6, and the experience he brings is a really big deal. With Conan and Doris, we're well stocked at 8 for the long term, and I just don't think Deegan will push past them. I'm also unconvinced that he could make a success of 6 or 7.

Ruddock is only 29, and easily has another 5 years in him.
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Re: Leinster Squad 19-20

Post by Jonny tight lips »

If Dorris establishes himself at six and Josh Murphy coming along nicely you wouldn’t begrudge Rhys if he wanted to move on if it didn’t look like he was gonna get his starting spot back.

While you imagine one of the back rows will move on I think it will probably be a 7. Four is too many and neither of them pop up at 6 or 8. A lot will depend on how Leavy comes back during the 20-21 season. Not sure who I’d like to see leave but I think there’s a lot to come from Penny so would hate to see him leave.
Last edited by Jonny tight lips on September 15th, 2020, 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Leinster Squad 19-20

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

CiaranIrl wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 12:53 pm
blockhead wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 12:35 pm
mildlyinterested wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 11:56 am
The same could be said of Ruddock. You'd have to think both are prime candidates to leave in 2021.
I really hope Deegan stays, he adds something different than the rest but needs to beef up.
Ruddock is a prime candidate to leave I agree.
I'd be gutted if Ruddock left. Much more so than Deegan personally. He's our only top quality out and out 6, and the experience he brings is a really big deal. With Conan and Doris, we're well stocked at 8 for the long term, and I just don't think Deegan will push past them. I'm also unconvinced that he could make a success of 6 or 7.

Ruddock is only 29, and easily has another 5 years in him.
This is a funny time and we had to get ready for the Pro14 final and the European knockouts so it’s understandable that the coaches can’t give everyone a fair run but I do wonder if selection is impacted by trying not lose players in the future.

Rhys is one of my favourite players though, hope he stays. I’d have had Deegan on the bench last weekend, think he deserved it.

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Re: Leinster Squad 19-20

Post by ronk »

2 prep matches and up to 5 knockouts. It was never going to be feasible to get everyone up to speed at once. In a few weeks a whole different problem starts, how to manage without internationals for months.

We shouldn’t talk up players leaving until after then.

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Re: Leinster Squad 19-20

Post by Jonny tight lips »

ronk wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 3:06 pm
2 prep matches and up to 5 knockouts. It was never going to be feasible to get everyone up to speed at once. In a few weeks a whole different problem starts, how to manage without internationals for months.

We shouldn’t talk up players leaving until after then.
That’s a fair point

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Re: Leinster Squad 19-20

Post by Serb »

Feel for Deegan and Ruddock alright.

I think it’s 100% guaranteed at least two of our back row players will leave at the end of next season. I felt that pushing Doris to 6 was an attempt to make room for Deegan to battle it out with Conan at 8. I think we can make the case for him to stay.

Ruddock is most likely to leave. While he’s still young enough, I think Doris already offers more than him, and I don’t think he’ll be happy to sit on the bench / not feature at all for the big games.

As mentioned above, I think the other departures will be one or two of our 7s. Hard to call which ones. I don’t think any of them will want to leave, but it’s likely Penny or Connors will be offered to Connacht, and then moved to Munster.

From there, we’ll have to wait and see on Leavy — can he get back to pre-injury levels? Hard to know really, but coaches seem to be happy with his progress. If he can’t break back into the team, I’d say he’ll move on too.

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Re: Leinster Squad 19-20

Post by riocard911 »

There is one aspect, which rarely gets mentioned when the question of whether one or other Leinster player should endure the uncertainty of squad rotation in Dublin or leave in order to gain more game time further afield. The cases in which leaving has led to a player's career or chances of selection to the Irish national team or the BIL improving are few and far between. Personally, I can only think of two off the top of my head - Tadhg Beirne and Andrew Conway. All others that occur to me - incl. J10 at Racing - their careers seem to have gone backwards. In Leinster players get a chance to shine. Everywhere else not so much. Jordi breaking his balls up in Belfast week in, week out for Ulster? Already passed out in the Ireland pecking order by Will Connors, when the latter hadn't even played one minute of Heino rugby. Madigan, Marty Moore, Jack McGrath, Carbery, Nick McCarthy - what have they achieved since they left? Not much, if anything at at all. What with the high injury rate in modern rugby, IMO, anyone who's within a shout of the Leinster matchday 23 should stay where they are - unless of course they're offered big bucks to get flogged somewhere else and that's what they want to do.

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Re: Leinster Squad 19-20

Post by Up Wexford »

riocard911 wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 4:01 pm
There is one aspect, which rarely gets mentioned when the question of whether one or other Leinster player should endure the uncertainty of squad rotation in Dublin or leave in order to gain more game time further afield. The cases in which leaving has led to a player's career or chances of selection to the Irish national team or the BIL improving are few and far between. Personally, I can only think of two off the top of my head - Tadhg Beirne and Andrew Conway. All others that occur to me - incl. J10 at Racing - their careers seem to have gone backwards. In Leinster players get a chance to shine. Everywhere else not so much. Jordi breaking his balls up in Belfast week in, week out for Ulster? Already passed out in the Ireland pecking order by Will Connors, when the latter hadn't even played one minute of Heino rugby. Madigan, Marty Moore, Jack McGrath, Carbery, Nick McCarthy - what have they achieved since they left? Not much, if anything at at all. What with the high injury rate in modern rugby, IMO, anyone who's within a shout of the Leinster matchday 23 should stay where they are - unless of course they're offered big bucks to get flogged somewhere else and that's what they want to do.
+1 +1 +1

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Re: Leinster Squad 19-20

Post by blockhead »

riocard911 wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 4:01 pm
There is one aspect, which rarely gets mentioned when the question of whether one or other Leinster player should endure the uncertainty of squad rotation in Dublin or leave in order to gain more game time further afield. The cases in which leaving has led to a player's career or chances of selection to the Irish national team or the BIL improving are few and far between. Personally, I can only think of two off the top of my head - Tadhg Beirne and Andrew Conway. All others that occur to me - incl. J10 at Racing - their careers seem to have gone backwards. In Leinster players get a chance to shine. Everywhere else not so much. Jordi breaking his balls up in Belfast week in, week out for Ulster? Already passed out in the Ireland pecking order by Will Connors, when the latter hadn't even played one minute of Heino rugby. Madigan, Marty Moore, Jack McGrath, Carbery, Nick McCarthy - what have they achieved since they left? Not much, if anything at at all. What with the high injury rate in modern rugby, IMO, anyone who's within a shout of the Leinster matchday 23 should stay where they are - unless of course they're offered big bucks to get flogged somewhere else and that's what they want to do.
And Conway only after years in the wilderness and even now he'll be replacement or injury cover fine player that he is. Beirne got out and really made a go of it tbf but even he has, at best, stagnated since leaving that brilliant Scarlets team.
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Re: Leinster Squad 19-20

Post by OTT »

I totally get and buy into the whole Leinster have better coaches/culture mindset. What also drives the team/squad on is the ability and competitiveness of the playing personnel.

What player who was involved in 16 of our first 19 wins this season would be happy to just be a 'brother' and take a back seat to another 'brother' who was injured all year and has gone straight into the team ahead of him. That guy thinks he should be playing in the big matches I guarantee you and if he does not he should not be at Leinster and he would not be. There will come a point that he will have to decide if he is happy getting passed out or if he backs himself to go to a team where he might not have the same access to the same resources but he will have access to the big games where he can show what he is worth.

It is easy for me or anyone here to say yeah but Doris is better or Conan is better, I doubt Deegan thinks he is inferior to the other backrows.
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Re: Leinster Squad 19-20

Post by Up Wexford »

I suppose, not trying to be smart, the definition of "brother" is when you remove the quotation marks and essentially behave how you describe in the paragraph.

While it might sound like insincere mumbo jumbo it is something that some of the top top coaches in the world work on. It is manifested most recently in the "breathers" thing with the younger members of the squad and I could guarantee it is something Stuart especially works on - the concept of "more than a team". Scott Robertson with the Crusaders is very big on this - you could pick it up with many of the interviews O' Gara did in Irish media when he worked with him. The All Blacks work on this constantly - if you get a chance the book Legacy by James M Kerr is essentially their 9-point manifesto on how to become more than a team (tolerance to the biz development jargon may vary). Off the top of my head the "Ubuntu" Celtics of '08 and the omerta of Jim Gavins Dublin would be two more examples.

If it means anything to Deegan remains to be seen but I would say the psychological aspect of cohesion in a team is not overlooked by Leo and Stu.

Jordi lifting the cup, and latterly Ferg and Rob - is this worth Deegan staying on the "margins" as percieved by those outside the group for a year or two until form and injury works his way again? Bearing in mind of course he is top class player and would walk on to most other teams.
Last edited by Up Wexford on September 15th, 2020, 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Leinster Squad 19-20

Post by ronk »

OTT wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 4:34 pm
I totally get and buy into the whole Leinster have better coaches/culture mindset. What also drives the team/squad on is the ability and competitiveness of the playing personnel.

What player who was involved in 16 of our first 19 wins this season would be happy to just be a 'brother' and take a back seat to another 'brother' who was injured all year and has gone straight into the team ahead of him. That guy thinks he should be playing in the big matches I guarantee you and if he does not he should not be at Leinster and he would not be. There will come a point that he will have to decide if he is happy getting passed out or if he backs himself to go to a team where he might not have the same access to the same resources but he will have access to the big games where he can show what he is worth.

It is easy for me or anyone here to say yeah but Doris is better or Conan is better, I doubt Deegan thinks he is inferior to the other backrows.
Did Munster and Ulster give more chances when the season resumed to the Pro14 stalwarts? Not on your life.

It’s really easy to see the problem inside the Leinster bubble and miss that the problem would be worse elsewhere.

Leinster actually gave Ross Byrne the start for the Pro14 final. Bent got one too rather than flog Porter (or patch up Furlong).

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Re: Leinster Squad 19-20

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Up Wexford wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 5:44 pm
I suppose, not trying to be smart, the definition of "brother" is when you remove the quotation marks and essentially behave how you describe in the paragraph.

While it might sound like insincere mumbo jumbo it is something that some of the top top coaches in the world work on. It is manifested most recently in the "breathers" thing with the younger members of the squad and I could guarantee it is something Stuart especially works on - the concept of "more than a team". Scott Robertson with the Crusaders is very big on this - you could pick it up with many of the interviews O' Gara did in Irish media when he worked with him. The All Blacks work on this constantly - if you get a chance the book Legacy by James M Kerr is essentially their 9-point manifesto on how to become more than a team (tolerance to the biz development jargon may vary). Off the top of my head the "Ubuntu" Celtics of '08 and the omerta of Jim Gavins Dublin would be two more examples.

If it means anything to Deegan remains to be seen but I would say the psychological aspect of cohesion in a team is not overlooked by Leo and Stu.

Jordi lifting the cup, and latterly Ferg and Rob - is this worth Deegan staying on the "margins" as percieved by those outside the group for a year or two until form and injury works his way again? Bearing in mind of course he is top class player and would walk on to most other teams.
Playing in a winning environment where the teamwork is so strong that any individual can shine on any given day is a huge attraction. That's its the team just down the road which your family and you have always supported and from which your boyhood heroes emerged, unbalances the argument. And then you look at those who did move in search of national recognition or big bucks - not too many strong examples of personal attainment of goals, particularly from Leinster.

So despite how easily speculation can run onto the page, or the screen, there is no automatic resolution for ambition. For some the itch is overpowering. For others, advice from advisers, family or others, or a rational plan laid out by a Coach who has proved his trustworthiness, maybe the ideal solution, particularly when he has outlined the specific areas you need to work on and how he will measure your future progress.

Should Max go or should he stay? Is there anywhere else he would love to be? Is there somewhere else he would get the opportunity to improve and fulfill all his objectives? Max and his Agent are among the few people who can answer those questions. For the rest of us, the opinions are pure speculation, just shooting the breeze.

I believe he should stay because I can't see any team, who have a chance of winning a major trophy in the immediate future, which would give him a chance to play international rugby at No 8 in the coming season. If he improves in a couple of specific areas, and his physique is one aspect, he would be strong competition for Conan and Stander by the start of the 2021-22 seaso. - less than 12 months away.

But its just my opinion and everyone is entitled to an opinion.

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Re: Leinster Squad 19-20

Post by Jonny tight lips »

With Doris getting a run at 6 he’s probably second in at 8. He’s more of a chance to dislodge Conan at leinster than Stander in Munster or Coetzee at Ulster so where is he gonna go if he wants to play for Ireland.

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Re: Leinster Squad 19-20

Post by Jonny tight lips »

With Injuries and potential international call ups it might be an idea to keep RK/ Ferg or both around until Christmas if they could be convinced.

mildlyinterested
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Re: Leinster Squad 19-20

Post by mildlyinterested »

Jonny tight lips wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 9:06 am
With Injuries and potential international call ups it might be an idea to keep RK/ Ferg or both around until Christmas if they could be convinced.
thats clearly not happening.. plenty of young lads in the academy should they be needed.

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Re: Leinster Squad 19-20

Post by joooooe »

mildlyinterested wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 9:11 am
Jonny tight lips wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 9:06 am
With Injuries and potential international call ups it might be an idea to keep RK/ Ferg or both around until Christmas if they could be convinced.
thats clearly not happening.. plenty of young lads in the academy should they be needed.
Yeah, we already have the largest first team squad (even without McFadden and Kearney) of the Irish provinces (leaving aside the argument that we need a bigger squad as we have more internationals). Unless the two lads want to play as amateurs!? Kearney has another big contract in him somewhere but Ferg has said this is it. Perhaps if he really wants to cement his status as a Leinster legend he could play on as an amateur?!

(that was tongue in cheek btw)

(but please consider it, Ferg)

(Ah go on go on go on...)

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