10 Year Magners League attendances chart

[Leinsterman]

So rugby in Leinster will forever be tainted with the slur on uninclusiveness and of having a class divide because thousands of people who are relatively new to the game had a great time watching one of the best rugby teams but haven't yet made any sandwiches down your local rugby club. These things take time, but they'll take a lot longer if they're not welcomed by the people who want to get them involved in rugby.

Of course they'll take time, I fully appreciate that and people will always be welcomed at their local rugby club. I have a feeling that some of them think they won't be welcome if they turn up and offer to help.

I don't really get how you can go to the RDS and see so many kids really enjoying the experience, trying to shake Leo's hand, getting their face painted, getting a few autographs, hanging around with some other kids, sampling the atmosphere and maybe some ice-cream or even be one of the lucky few who get to play mini rugby in front of over 10k people, and then turn that around so that somehow it's not a good thing for the game (if not a bad thing in itself).

I never said it was a bad thing.
I'd have loved something like that to exist when I was a kid but Leinster Rugby back then consisted of a couple of games a year in a windswept Lansdowne Road in front of a handful of people.
What I don't like is how people claim to be die-hard rugby fans and claim to "bleed Leinster" and have been fans "through the hard times", i.e. 2006-2007.
My worry is that a lot of those people will drift away again if/when the cycle of results and talent wheels away form us for a few lean years. I'd just like to see some of them contribute more to the development of the game... it'll help sustain the success we're all becoming accustomed to.

[Dave Cahill]

Of course they'll take time, I fully appreciate that and people will always be welcomed at their local rugby club. I have a feeling that some of them think they won't be welcome if they turn up and offer to help.

So how are the clubs addressing this? If this is peoples perception, and in a lot of cases it is, what are the clubs doing to change it? The OLSC have tried repeatedly to connect with clubs in order to guide 'unaligned' supporters towards their local club, and you'd have more luck getting a eunuchs baby to sh!t gold quite frankly.

[awaaf]

There must be some way to leverage the LR success to help the clubs. I think using some revenue to majorly subsidise something a la the gaa cul camps would be a good move. The cul camps are the cheapest summer kids gig. Once the kids are hooked in the gaa are great a making even non-gaa parents feel welcome. Stand still near a pitch and you get a job pretty quick. Do a job once or twice and suddenly you are part of the coaching team. A voucher distributed late season at the RDS for a cheap summer camp at your local club would likely be used. A BBQ on the last night to include the parents with a free pint voucher for a couple of autumn league matches thrown in. Cost subsidised by LR would not be much - result who knows but worth a try?

[Leinsterman]

-

Of course they'll take time, I fully appreciate that and people will always be welcomed at their local rugby club. I have a feeling that some of them think they won't be welcome if they turn up and offer to help.

So how are the clubs addressing this? If this is peoples perception, and in a lot of cases it is, what are the clubs doing to change it? The OLSC have tried repeatedly to connect with clubs in order to guide 'unaligned' supporters towards their local club, and you'd have more luck getting a eunuchs baby to sh!t gold quite frankly.

From our own experience, we've physically contacted parents of our underage players and asked them for help. We've had ONE parent help us on a couple of occasions.
I can't recollect any previous attempts of communication between the OLSC and our own club but I'd be absolutely delighted to discuss it with the OLSC next season and see how we can try and get people in my club's area more involved with the club.
However, I do remember some emails sent to my club email address regarding showing matches etc so it's certainly something that can be built on.
Perhaps something I'll talk to you about a bit more offline! I need to dig back through some older emails first.


EDIT: of course, we may just have to face up to the fact that people just aren't interested in club rugby.

[combatlogo]

LM/Dave, I take both your points but I will say that prior to the HEC win in 2009, many clubs exhibited indifference at best and outright hostility at worst to the pro game. One of my best memories of the Glorious Second of May was 'Rock whining to Thornley about their paltry ticket allocation. After the debacle of Black Sunday, what did they expect?

LM, Unidare is in leafy Glasnevin, surely?

[Leinsterman]

LM/Dave, I take both your points but I will say that prior to the HEC win in 2009, many clubs exhibited indifference at best and outright hostility at worst to the pro game. One of my best memories of the Glorious Second of May was 'Rock whining to Thornley about their paltry ticket allocation. After the debacle of Black Sunday, what did they expect?

LM, Unidare is in leafy Glasnevin, surely?

We've been trying bloody hard for years. I feel the pro game can exist in harmony to the amateur game, particularly if games are scheduled correctly. We're only looking for a couple of hours of people's time during the week and maybe in the morning in the weekend. Thankfully the Branch have now cottoned on to the fact that many amateur players actually want to watch/attend the pro games and the schedules are adjusted to reflect this.


As for Glasnevin? Nope ... proudly Ballymun now. We may even by playing our games on a pitch in the centre of Ballymun next season if all goes well.


EDIT: actually, a mod might want to split part of this thread and stick it in the domestic section of the forum .... that's if any of them are around tonight and not on the p1ss!

[Dave Cahill]

-

Of course they'll take time, I fully appreciate that and people will always be welcomed at their local rugby club. I have a feeling that some of them think they won't be welcome if they turn up and offer to help.

So how are the clubs addressing this? If this is peoples perception, and in a lot of cases it is, what are the clubs doing to change it? The OLSC have tried repeatedly to connect with clubs in order to guide 'unaligned' supporters towards their local club, and you'd have more luck getting a eunuchs baby to sh!t gold quite frankly.

From our own experience, we've physically contacted parents of our underage players and asked them for help. We've had ONE parent help us on a couple of occasions.
I can't recollect any previous attempts of communication between the OLSC and our own club but I'd be absolutely delighted to discuss it with the OLSC next season and see how we can try and get people in my club's area more involved with the club.
However, I do remember some emails sent to my club email address regarding showing matches etc so it's certainly something that can be built on.
Perhaps something I'll talk to you about a bit more offline! I need to dig back through some older emails first.


EDIT: of course, we may just have to face up to the fact that people just aren't interested in club rugby.

A lot of it has been around matches. We had a meeting with David Ross to discuss how best to leverage our reach and social media presence to best benefit the clubs, and his suggestion was that we encourage people to go to their local club (clubhouse where present, or if a pub is a club sponsor etc) to watch away matches, instead of just heading to their local. Before every away HEC match (and some of the bigger ML away games) we email every club in the province to enquire about their plans, if any, for the game and to let them know that we will promote these plans to our over 7k facebook and 3k + twitter followers and through the OLSC section of the Leinster Rugby site. We generally get two or three replies out of the circa 70 clubs in Leinster.

[Leinsterman]

A lot of it has been around matches. We had a meeting with David Ross to discuss how best to leverage our reach and social media presence to best benefit the clubs, and his suggestion was that we encourage people to go to their local club (clubhouse where present, or if a pub is a club sponsor etc) to watch away matches, instead of just heading to their local. Before every away HEC match (and some of the bigger ML away games) we email every club in the province to enquire about their plans, if any, for the game and to let them know that we will promote these plans to our over 7k facebook and 3k + twitter followers and through the OLSC section of the Leinster Rugby site. We generally get two or three replies out of the circa 70 clubs in Leinster.

I'll have to see what happened here with my own club WRT that.
I'm not knocking any work the Branch and OLSC did and I don't want the thread going down that path.
However, there is a great untapped resource out there and despite work from clubs, OLSc and Branch, many people won't get involved with local clubs.
I can understand why a lot can't but what about the rest? I'd hate to think many people in the RDS were event junkies and would like to think they could help contribute to the game at all levels.

[ronk]

Event junkies?

[MelbourneRebel]

Funny that in 03/04 our attendance was ~2.5k. In April we sent that many to Thomond for the league game.

Seems to be a trend for almost every team in the ML and the Premiership (that chart is there now).

I guess that during the World Cup not too many fans wanted to come out and see weakened sides in action during the Rugby World Cup.

[jezzer]

I never said it was a bad thing.
I'd have loved something like that to exist when I was a kid but Leinster Rugby back then consisted of a couple of games a year in a windswept Lansdowne Road in front of a handful of people.
What I don't like is how people claim to be die-hard rugby fans and claim to "bleed Leinster" and have been fans "through the hard times", i.e. 2006-2007.
My worry is that a lot of those people will drift away again if/when the cycle of results and talent wheels away form us for a few lean years. I'd just like to see some of them contribute more to the development of the game... it'll help sustain the success we're all becoming accustomed to.

The answer is the kids. Get the kids playing minis at the club and the volunteerism will spring from there. The adult Leinster fans that aren't connected to any clubs and whose playing days are behind them are a lost cause to a greater extent.

But their kids are how you get families back into the club system.

[Lar]

But their kids are how you get families back into the club system.

Do you really think that will happen? My young lad is playing club rugby in the same club I played in and generations before me etc etc. But that isn't where its at for loads of the people I know who are bringing their kids to the RDS. They don't have any club affiliations and see following Leinster as entertainment for the family. I can't ever see any of them looking to either support club rugby or become involved in the game at ground level.

There is one guy one who regularly brings his 11 year old son. He is going to a rugby school next September when he starts Senior school and even though his son is a mad keen follower of Leinster, neither of his parents want him to take up rugby in school.....

[ronk]

But their kids are how you get families back into the club system.

Do you really think that will happen? My young lad is playing club rugby in the same club I played in and generations before me etc etc. But that isn't where its at for loads of the people I know who are bringing their kids to the RDS. They don't have any club affiliations and see following Leinster as entertainment for the family. I can't ever see any of them looking to either support club rugby or become involved in the game at ground level.

There is one guy one who regularly brings his 11 year old son. He is going to a rugby school next September when he starts Senior school and even though his son is a mad keen follower of Leinster, neither of his parents want him to take up rugby in school.....

There'll always be people like that. When I was in school it was the same even though the Heineken Cup hadn't even started then. People don't suddenly start sweeping changing rooms after a J4 match just because they like watching Brian O'Driscoll in the RDS, not many anyway. Even the people who do give their time generally started for their own reasons.

I still play for my club, and I've noticed people coming back to the game after years out of it. They wouldn't normally say themselves but I'm inclined to think that the professional game coaxed them back into played to some extent.

When I started secondary school I knew nothing about rugby except that I could expect to be beaten up. I had zero interest, but when everyone else was doing it I went along and found it fun. Rugby is a hard sell, the downsides of the violence and time commitments are obvious while the upsides are longer term and harder to quantify. It's hard for me to explain to some people (even some Leinster season ticket holders) why I keep going back when I'm showing them my bruises and moving gingerly.

Rugby is not and never will be a sport for everyone, especially when it comes to playing and it has moved further in that direction since professionalism. It's still a huge participatory sport, but it's a bigger spectator sport and I don't really see that process reversing itself. Especially now that clubs missed the boat so badly when it comes to tag rugby.

[CiaranIrl]

There must be some way to leverage the LR success to help the clubs. I think using some revenue to majorly subsidise something a la the gaa cul camps would be a good move. The cul camps are the cheapest summer kids gig. Once the kids are hooked in the gaa are great a making even non-gaa parents feel welcome. Stand still near a pitch and you get a job pretty quick. Do a job once or twice and suddenly you are part of the coaching team. A voucher distributed late season at the RDS for a cheap summer camp at your local club would likely be used. A BBQ on the last night to include the parents with a free pint voucher for a couple of autumn league matches thrown in. Cost subsidised by LR would not be much - result who knows but worth a try?

This is a good idea. You see, the problem is that people tend to complain and feel sorry for themselves instead of asking for ideas or listening to suggestions.

Imagine a nice evening in the RDS in September, when everyone is rugby mad because of the world cup. Clubs could be invited to set up stands on the grass - like societies in college or companies at career fairs. They could have information about the club and any relevant promotional material. They could give away vouchers for a barbecue or a kid's sports day or a table quiz or any one of a million other things to get people in to see the place.

[gfo]

There's an awful lot of leinster fans now with zero connection with local clubs. We basically have the opposite problem to the welsh teams.

Also, Guinnesses isn't a rugby team, it's a traveller family fued in a field

[Proudleinsterman]

Would like to see the Aviva used a bit more, I would definitely have Bath and Montpellier there. With the bandwagon growing the majority are much more likely to want to make a day of it in the plush surroundings of HQ rather than a unreserved, uncovered seat in the tacky RDS. PS- I am not only speaking with my finance hat on. Have seen all Leinsters matches at HQ and have enjoyed every occassion, but I have to admit I am not a STH who has had their seating arrangements messed around in the move or conned into taking up some of the worst seats in the house.

[Leinsterman]

Also, Guinnesses isn't a rugby team, it's a traveller family fued in a field

[cormac]

Would like to see the Aviva used a bit more, I would definitely have Bath and Montpellier there. With the bandwagon growing the majority are much more likely to want to make a day of it in the plush surroundings of HQ rather than a unreserved, uncovered seat in the tacky RDS. PS- I am not only speaking with my finance hat on. Have seen all Leinsters matches at HQ and have enjoyed every occassion, but I have to admit I am not a STH who has had their seating arrangements messed around in the move or conned into taking up some of the worst seats in the house.

Leinster Rugby are obliged to play 13 matches a season at the RDS under the current contract. We only have 14 home matches in the regular season (excluding play-off games) and the only reason we're now able to move two matches in the regular season to the Aviva is because the Leinster Schools' Cup Final counts as one of the 13 games. So we won't be playing any more than two league or HEC pool games in the Aviva until we get a new arrangement with the RDS and the first possible break in that contract won't happen until the start of the 2017/18 season.

[Dexter]

Would like to see the Aviva used a bit more, I would definitely have Bath and Montpellier there. With the bandwagon growing the majority are much more likely to want to make a day of it in the plush surroundings of HQ rather than a unreserved, uncovered seat in the tacky RDS. PS- I am not only speaking with my finance hat on. Have seen all Leinsters matches at HQ and have enjoyed every occassion, but I have to admit I am not a STH who has had their seating arrangements messed around in the move or conned into taking up some of the worst seats in the house.

Leinster Rugby are obliged to play 13 matches a season at the RDS under the current contract. We only have 14 home matches in the regular season (excluding play-off games) and the only reason we're now able to move two matches in the regular season to the Aviva is because the Leinster Schools' Cup Final counts as one of the 13 games. So we won't be playing any more than two league or HEC pool games in the Aviva until we get a new arrangement with the RDS and the first possible break in that contract won't happen until the start of the 2017/18 season.

Personally I think the balance is just right at the moment. I love the RDS but it's great to have the odd big game at LR.

[Flash Gordon]

I never said it was a bad thing.
I'd have loved something like that to exist when I was a kid but Leinster Rugby back then consisted of a couple of games a year in a windswept Lansdowne Road in front of a handful of people.
What I don't like is how people claim to be die-hard rugby fans and claim to "bleed Leinster" and have been fans "through the hard times", i.e. 2006-2007.
My worry is that a lot of those people will drift away again if/when the cycle of results and talent wheels away form us for a few lean years. I'd just like to see some of them contribute more to the development of the game... it'll help sustain the success we're all becoming accustomed to.

The answer is the kids. Get the kids playing minis at the club and the volunteerism will spring from there. The adult Leinster fans that aren't connected to any clubs and whose playing days are behind them are a lost cause to a greater extent.

But their kids are how you get families back into the club system.

Think that's right. The scale opportunity is bringing kids through the system - many Dublin clubs have 200+ kids down every Sunday morning playing rugby with their mum's and Dad's. The reason those kids are there is because of Leinster and Ireland's success in popularising the game. So the province is the recruitment driver.

In my experience there is absolutely no problem getting people to pitch in and support their clubs. We have 8 coaches in under 12's - with all but two having had no connection with the club previously. We have dad's holding tackle bags if needs be and we had other dad's help organise tours etc. We have fantastic attendances at quiz nights, BBQ's etc So people are helping build the future, pitching in and getting involved. At our club, that's not an issue at all and everything would appear rosey for the future.

However, once the kids finish under 13's, the club effectively shuts down as kids play schools rugby and are not allowed by IRFU rules to play for their club. Hence, for 6 years they lose the connection with the club and its likely that once that's gone for that long, it will be broken for good (the numbers say that's what happens). That has to be addressed in my mind to build the bond with the club over a lifetime.

I also think that, with the exception of an handful of top rugby schools they'd learn more and be better playing club league rugby rather than in a schools cup competition but that's another day's work.