Steven Sykes

[gfo]

Am I the only one who thinks Courtney Lawes is the most over-rated player in England then?

I'll see your Lawes and raise you a Tom Croft

[wixfjord]

Croft is a very light 6 and completely over-rated.
Lawes on the other hand is an amazing physical specimen, and i think they're right to be hyping him, as his potential is huge if he grows a brain cell or two.
Witness the security of the Northampton ball in Thomond compared to last weekend, he's an excellent lineout jumper and a great carrier, with a lovely offload, something which Irish second rows seem unable to combine. He's an utter scummer though when it comes to late hits.

[Apocrypha]

Croft is a very light 6 and completely over-rated.
Lawes on the other hand is an amazing physical specimen, and i think they're right to be hyping him, as his potential is huge if he grows a brain cell or two.
Witness the security of the Northampton ball in Thomond compared to last weekend, he's an excellent lineout jumper and a great carrier, with a lovely offload, something which Irish second rows seem unable to combine. He's an utter scummer though when it comes to late hits.

D Ryan?

[ronk]

Croft is a very light 6 and completely over-rated.
Lawes on the other hand is an amazing physical specimen, and i think they're right to be hyping him, as his potential is huge if he grows a brain cell or two.
Witness the security of the Northampton ball in Thomond compared to last weekend, he's an excellent lineout jumper and a great carrier, with a lovely offload, something which Irish second rows seem unable to combine. He's an utter scummer though when it comes to late hits.

D Ryan?

Big Mal

[gfo]

He's an English player though when it comes to playing like an Englishman.

[wixfjord]

Croft is a very light 6 and completely over-rated.
Lawes on the other hand is an amazing physical specimen, and i think they're right to be hyping him, as his potential is huge if he grows a brain cell or two.
Witness the security of the Northampton ball in Thomond compared to last weekend, he's an excellent lineout jumper and a great carrier, with a lovely offload, something which Irish second rows seem unable to combine. He's an utter scummer though when it comes to late hits.

D Ryan?

To some degree, but not in the same league in my opinion. Lawes hands and spring are fantastic.

[wixfjord]

Croft is a very light 6 and completely over-rated.
Lawes on the other hand is an amazing physical specimen, and i think they're right to be hyping him, as his potential is huge if he grows a brain cell or two.
Witness the security of the Northampton ball in Thomond compared to last weekend, he's an excellent lineout jumper and a great carrier, with a lovely offload, something which Irish second rows seem unable to combine. He's an utter scummer though when it comes to late hits.

D Ryan?

Big Mal

Hmmm I fairly strongly disagree with that one, not in the same league anyway.

My main point is I think that while the English big up some of their players, we are sometimes in danger of going the opposite way. Despite his personality, Lawes is an amazing prospect and should be a Lions tourist next time around, injury and tackling permitting.

[ronk]

Big Mal

Hmmm I fairly strongly disagree with that one, not in the same league anyway.

My main point is I think that while the English big up some of their players, we are sometimes in danger of going the opposite way. Despite his personality, Lawes is an amazing prospect and should be a Lions tourist next time around, injury and tackling permitting.

Your point is well illustrated in your assessment of O'Kelly.

Lawes has the individual gifts to become a World Class lock, especially in cases where you want your lock to be more of a backrow. Lawes will have to do it on the pitch before he's starting for the Lions.

[brummie-leinster-man]

he's an excellent lineout jumper and a great carrier, with a lovely offload,

Are you looking at the same Courtney Lawes I'm looking at? I've lost count of the amount of try scoring opportunities I've seen him murder for saints because of his clumsiness with the ball

[brummie-leinster-man]

Am I the only one who thinks Courtney Lawes is the most over-rated player in England then?

I'll see your Lawes and raise you a Tom Croft

Yea Croft doesn't get talked about as much as Lawes though. He gets praise when he deserves it. Lawes gets talked up even if he plays like a tool. Plus Croft was pretty good for the Lions so you could say he's earned the praise he gets. I'm yet to see the Lawes that sky sports and the like seem to dribble on about

[wixfjord]

Big Mal

Hmmm I fairly strongly disagree with that one, not in the same league anyway.

My main point is I think that while the English big up some of their players, we are sometimes in danger of going the opposite way. Despite his personality, Lawes is an amazing prospect and should be a Lions tourist next time around, injury and tackling permitting.

Your point is well illustrated in your assessment of O'Kelly.

Lawes has the individual gifts to become a World Class lock, especially in cases where you want your lock to be more of a backrow. Lawes will have to do it on the pitch before he's starting for the Lions.

Well I've had my head bitten off before for daring to question the great Mal, and you seem like the type of poster who would do that, and I've no wish to get into that. To say he was the same league as Lawes for handling, carrying and athleticism as Lawes is incorrect imo.

Back on topic, Lawes would be a great addition but we'll never get him.

Sharpe would be my choice of the possibly available.
Could be the making of Flanagan though.

[bails]

Am I the only one who thinks Courtney Lawes is the most over-rated player in England then?

I'll go for Alex Goode of Saracens.

[brummie-leinster-man]

Am I the only one who thinks Courtney Lawes is the most over-rated player in England then?

I'll go for Alex Goode of Saracens.

He gets rated??

Though Owen Farrell was the only player that matters in Watford

[hugonaut]

Well I've had my head bitten off before for daring to question the great Mal, and you seem like the type of poster who would do that, and I've no wish to get into that. To say he was the same league as Lawes for handling, carrying and athleticism as Lawes is incorrect imo.

Back on topic, Lawes would be a great addition but we'll never get him.

Mal O'Kelly got 92 caps for Ireland and was selected for two Lions tours in an era when there was no end of excellent second-rows about in the NH. He was a legitimately world class second row in his prime, and arguably Ireland's most athletic ever second row [Jerry Davidson and O'Connell would have their champions].

He played in three RWCs over 12 seasons of international rugby and there were a lot of good second rows around in Ireland at the time – Davidson, O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Cullen, Paddy Johns, Gary Longwell, Bob Casey, Mick O'Driscoll to name just some of them.

Lawes is a great prospect, looks the part and has the tattoos, but he's more infamous for his cheap-shots and big hits on midget scrum-halves than for anything he's yet done as a player. The proof of the pudding came in the World Cup, when he was couldn't make it on to the QF team ahead of Tom Palmer or Louis Deacon, neither of them second rows of any great international pedigree. Indeed Simon Shaw was the sub second-row for that game, with Lawes coming on as a blindside for Tom Croft.

Here are some highlights of Mal, btw ... make a believer of you yet!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQsZ_1KN ... re=related

[bails]

Its not that long ago that Sky were declaring Alex Goode as the next Lions full back. Shows you what shite eminates from Murdoch's festering studios.

[brummie-leinster-man]

Its not that long ago that Sky were declaring Alex Goode as the next Lions full back. Shows you what shite eminates from Murdoch's festering studios.

I must have missed that

Yea I'd take what they say on sky with a pinch of salt!

[macboomba]

Well Leo is confirmed for surgery today so he'll be gone until mid March as earliest.

We'll do well to have him back for HC qtr final. Flanagan is going to get a bit of game time this 6 nations.

[slum]

Well Leo is confirmed for surgery today so he'll be gone until mid March as earliest.

We'll do well to have him back for HC qtr final. Flanagan is going to get a bit of game time this 6 nations.

That's great news

[ronk]

Hmmm I fairly strongly disagree with that one, not in the same league anyway.

My main point is I think that while the English big up some of their players, we are sometimes in danger of going the opposite way. Despite his personality, Lawes is an amazing prospect and should be a Lions tourist next time around, injury and tackling permitting.

[/quote]

It wasn't a question of biting your head off over Mal (though I do disagree with you), it was pointing out the apparently unintended irony as highlighted in your post.

Lawes is someone who makes more contributions to the highlights reel than to the winning of the game. I don't think that he's special just because he has a party trick of looking for opportunities to get blindside hits in that he happens to be good at.

[wixfjord]

Hmmm I fairly strongly disagree with that one, not in the same league anyway.

My main point is I think that while the English big up some of their players, we are sometimes in danger of going the opposite way. Despite his personality, Lawes is an amazing prospect and should be a Lions tourist next time around, injury and tackling permitting.

It wasn't a question of biting your head off over Mal (though I do disagree with you), it was pointing out the apparently unintended irony as highlighted in your post.

Lawes is someone who makes more contributions to the highlights reel than to the winning of the game. I don't think that he's special just because he has a party trick of looking for opportunities to get blindside hits in that he happens to be good at.[/quote]


Yes that's exactly what I'm saying, thanks for illustrating it! Many on here see Lawes for his tackles and tattoos, and obviously automatically think he's a showboater. For a 22 year old to be as good as he is is very rare in my book, but obviously you can't see past the hatred, which is the point I was trying to make. He's no world beater yet, and he's not nearly as good as Sky make out, but here is some middle ground to the argument.

I can guarantee that if he were Irish we'd be creaming ourselves over him. Take the recent Mark Flanagan performance for instance, and multiply that by an international cap, or the continuing hype of Andrew Conway!