A whiff of Cordite

[Flash Gordon]

Interesting conversations about player transfers. What nobody is talking about is the impact on culture. Flannery and O'Callaghan talked about the lack of passion in the current Munster team. That team was built on a culture rooted in the province. Hard work, physicality and more than a little bit of chippiness and dislike for Leinster and what they perceived we stood for. It's hard to foster emotion around a them vs us culture when them are amongst us.

[D4surfer]

Interesting conversations about player transfers. What nobody is talking about is the impact on culture. Flannery and O'Callaghan talked about the lack of passion in the current Munster team. That team was built on a culture rooted in the province. Hard work, physicality and more than a little bit of chippiness and dislike for Leinster and what they perceived we stood for. It's hard to foster emotion around a them vs us culture when them are amongst us.

Thankfully, there's not too many of THEM amongst US to f*ck up our culture. Sean Cronin is the only one that I can think of.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Interesting conversations about player transfers. What nobody is talking about is the impact on culture. Flannery and O'Callaghan talked about the lack of passion in the current Munster team. That team was built on a culture rooted in the province. Hard work, physicality and more than a little bit of chippiness and dislike for Leinster and what they perceived we stood for. It's hard to foster emotion around a them vs us culture when them are amongst us.

Thankfully, there's not too many of THEM amongst US to f*ck up our culture. Sean Cronin is the only one that I can think of.

You’re having a laugh right??

[glenageary]

You need Munster men to dislike Leinster and vice versa?? - rubbish

Felipe Contepomi and his love of Munster puts pay to that argument

Donnacha Ryan will love turning over Munster too - I am sure the Leinster ex-pats in the other provinces love playing us

What is a valid argument is that dysfunctional rivalry has been strongly dialled down due to the harmonization in the interest of the national cause and maybe that has taken away some of the Munster "us against the world " attitude. But also technical capability/skills and game planning now counts more than emotion - you cant compensate with only Heart anymore.

[ronk]

Interesting conversations about player transfers. What nobody is talking about is the impact on culture. Flannery and O'Callaghan talked about the lack of passion in the current Munster team. That team was built on a culture rooted in the province. Hard work, physicality and more than a little bit of chippiness and dislike for Leinster and what they perceived we stood for. It's hard to foster emotion around a them vs us culture when them are amongst us.

Competition is a big part of our culture. It drives everyone on. There’s rotation AND reward for results.

Moving players who are competing, weakens our competition. It creates an alternative where your agent gets you game time not your actions on the pitch.

It does the same for the teams gaining the players. The new guys are handed chances and the young guys lose out without thinking they have a shot. Whether you’re coming from Dublin or Durban, the effect is the same.

It doesn’t have to have anything to do with preserving rivalry.

[Ruckedtobits]

A thoughful piece in The42 Rugby this morning. A reasonable comparison with the Dubs progression and a decent analysis of the challenge which Leo faces each week.

https://www.the42.ie/leinster-dublin-4962552-Jan2020/

Nervous that there have been no shocks so far this weekend. Let's hope it occurs in Paris.

[Twist]

A thoughful piece in The42 Rugby this morning. A reasonable comparison with the Dubs progression and a decent analysis of the challenge which Leo faces each week.

https://www.the42.ie/leinster-dublin-4962552-Jan2020/

Nervous that there have been no shocks so far this weekend. Let's hope it occurs in Paris.

Disagree with the comparison for the reasons outlined in this comment;

“They’re becoming more like the Kilkenny of the 2000′s than the Dubs, as they’re competing against teams with similar budgets or even higher ones

Don’t @ me Dubs fans thanks”

Dublin got an assisting wind worth €17 million from the GAA (next highest was Cork on €1.1 million). Leinster get no such advantage over their rivals, and frequnetly lose players they’ve invested in to their competitors

[CiaranIrl]

A thoughful piece in The42 Rugby this morning. A reasonable comparison with the Dubs progression and a decent analysis of the challenge which Leo faces each week.

https://www.the42.ie/leinster-dublin-4962552-Jan2020/

Nervous that there have been no shocks so far this weekend. Let's hope it occurs in Paris.

Disagree with the comparison for the reasons outlined in this comment;

“They’re becoming more like the Kilkenny of the 2000′s than the Dubs, as they’re competing against teams with similar budgets or even higher ones

Don’t @ me Dubs fans thanks”

Dublin got an assisting wind worth €17 million from the GAA (next highest was Cork on €1.1 million). Leinster get no such advantage over their rivals, and frequnetly lose players they’ve invested in to their competitors

At the risk of derailing the thread, that's not true. Dublin the county/city got that funding for The gajillion clubs full of kids. If you have ever brought a kid to GAA on a Saturday morning, you see where that money goes. The actual county team has had a similar amount of money to any other county team.

In 2016, Mayo were the biggest spenders on their county teams with €1.6 million. Behind them, Dublin spent €1.5 million, with Cork, Galway, Tipperary, and Roscommon all over €1 million.

In 2017, Cork were the biggest spenders on their intercounty teams with €1.7 million spent, again closely followed by Dublin, with Mayo, Galway, Limerick, Tipperary and Kerry all over €1 million.

In 2018, it was Galway who topped the list with €1.8 million.

[wixfjord]

The actual county team has had a similar amount of money to any other county team.

That's not really true. The senior Dublin team has greatly benefitted from being by far the biggest recipients of both grants and sponsorship over the last decade. Their sponsorship figure alone is 2/3x other teams.

I believe those senior team spent figures are also obscured by the fact they don't include things like food which Dublin don't 'spend' on but are provided by a corporate partner.

Unlike in Irish rugby, in GAA there's a massive financial disparity between the most successful team who wear blue and the rest!

[Twist]

Years of investment in coaching helps the performance of the senior team - as anyone who watches Leinster knows! Also paying for that frees up funds elsewhere

There’s no way to examine the issue without concluding that Dublin recieved a big financial advantage over their competitors. If the money really made no difference, isnt that a colossal waste?

[Laighin Break]

The actual county team has had a similar amount of money to any other county team.

That's not really true. The senior Dublin team has greatly benefitted from being by far the biggest recipients of both grants and sponsorship over the last decade. Their sponsorship figure alone is 2/3x other teams.

I believe those senior team spent figures are also obscured by the fact they don't include things like food which Dublin don't 'spend' on but are provided by a corporate partner.

Unlike in Irish rugby, in GAA there's a massive financial disparity between the most successful team who wear blue and the rest!

This is obviously a topic for the GAA thread but I hate seeing the whole 'financial doping' thing being thrown around (I'm aware OP didn't use that exact term)

All that sponsorship money is not just going to the Dublin senior team! Dublin invest a huge amount into underage football, and the results speak for themselves. Other counties have wasted money on centres of excellence and such.
Dublin gets more than other counties as it has the biggest population. For the same reason, Dublin is also treated as a province so doesn't receive money from Comhairle Laighean, whereas other counties get funding from the provincial comhairlí (which is then ignored in the amounts GAA give directly to counties).

And lastly food. Most county teams get meals after training. I've a friend that plays Christy Ring hurling and they get meals after training.
Dublin's 'corporate partner' that provides food is Philly McMahon, one of their players. I'm sure players on every county team help out their team mates where they can.

[wixfjord]

The actual county team has had a similar amount of money to any other county team.

That's not really true. The senior Dublin team has greatly benefitted from being by far the biggest recipients of both grants and sponsorship over the last decade. Their sponsorship figure alone is 2/3x other teams.

I believe those senior team spent figures are also obscured by the fact they don't include things like food which Dublin don't 'spend' on but are provided by a corporate partner.

Unlike in Irish rugby, in GAA there's a massive financial disparity between the most successful team who wear blue and the rest!

This is obviously a topic for the GAA thread but I hate seeing the whole 'financial doping' thing being thrown around (I'm aware OP didn't use that exact term)

All that sponsorship money is not just going to the Dublin senior team! Dublin invest a huge amount into underage football, and the results speak for themselves. Other counties have wasted money on centres of excellence and such.
Dublin gets more than other counties as it has the biggest population. For the same reason, Dublin is also treated as a province so doesn't receive money from Comhairle Laighean, whereas other counties get funding from the provincial comhairlí (which is then ignored in the amounts GAA give directly to counties).

And lastly food. Most county teams get meals after training. I've a friend that plays Christy Ring hurling and they get meals after training.
Dublin's 'corporate partner' that provides food is Philly McMahon, one of their players. I'm sure players on every county team help out their team mates where they can.

Dublin gets far more proportionally than any other county, and has done for a sustained number of years even taking into account the population.

The senior team gets the benefit of this money both directly and indirectly (through better coaching of players coming through).

Most county teams get meals after training, but that money is included in their spend as has been mentioned above.
For Dublin, this isn't the case as the food is sponsored and doesn't come out of the budget mentioned above.
The food partner for the senior team is Gourmet Food, not Philly McMahon.

[Jonny tight lips]

All this complaining about the advantages of the Dublin GAA team sounds like the Shelbyvilians complaining about us over in Shelbyville ..... how many times can we fit the word population into our whinging.

[curates_egg]

Salanoa off to Connacht and more auctioning off Leinster players in dIndo:
https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 56601.html

We're losing a 7, 8 and 10 according to Ruadhri O'Connor.

[bluemagic]

Salanoa off to Connacht and more auctioning off Leinster players in dIndo:
https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 56601.html

We're losing a 7, 8 and 10 according to Ruadhri O'Connor.

It’s absolute f%~king bullshit at this stage.

We’ve already lost our best 10 prospect to our biggest rivals. Where would we send a 10 to? To Munster again where they had a talented youngster in Johnston who they shipped off to Ulster? Connacht have two talented tens and Ulster now have burns and Johnston?

Munster have Stander and the supposedly brilliant O’Donoghue at 8, why do they need another one? Ulster have Coetzee and another player of ours in Murphy who can play 8 as well as another Leinster player in Greg Jones. Only place it would make sense is Connacht but they won’t get Heineken cup rugby next season so how can a player develop?

Again with 7s Munster have a long list of backrowers who they can play there including O’Donoghue, O’Donnell and Cloete. Ulster a bit weaker at 7 but Reidy is having a great season this year and Murphy is good there when he plays. Again the gap is at Connacht.

The most frustrating part about all this is that not only do Leinster produce all these talented players and spend time training them we also give these players way more minutes than other provinces do. Look at players like Casey or Wycherley in Munster who are given next to no chance and compare that to players like Penny, Connors, Deegan, Doris, Kelleher in Leinster.

The IRFU are going to keep doing this until we have 4 competitive provinces in Europe but who will never be good enough to actually win the thing. They’ll also probably keep picking coaches who play Munsters style of rugby of not attacking and trying to apply “pressure” which like Munster fail on the big stage.

[Jonny tight lips]

Salanoa off to Connacht and more auctioning off Leinster players in dIndo:
https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 56601.html

We're losing a 7, 8 and 10 according to Ruadhri O'Connor.

That’s not what the article says at all, it says Connacht are interested is saying Aloa to Salanoa and also that the IRFU would prefer if the lads were playing more which could be a way for Munster and ulster to bridge the gap.

That’s a far cry from what you wrote and your after really winding up poor bluemagic who up until now was probably the most Zen guy in the classroom.

[joooooe]

The most frustrating part about all this is that not only do Leinster produce all these talented players and spend time training them we also give these players way more minutes than other provinces do. Look at players like Casey or Wycherley in Munster who are given next to no chance and compare that to players like Penny, Connors, Deegan, Doris, Kelleher in Leinster.

This is the part that gets me too. I didn't have any great objection when Ulster signed Jack McGrath as it was clearly his call to try to get into a WC squad (note to other players contemplating a departure: how did that go for him?). Ulster had clearly tried to bring through a couple of young props and they just didn't show the sort of promise they needed at that stage (though they haven't given up on them).

Munster took Carbery mid-contract and his signing blocked the progress of Hanrahan and Johnston (and Healy, it could be argued). The one that always gets me though was Albie Matthewson; parachuted in ahead of Williams, Hart, Cronin and Casey, then kept on for over a year and now they have poor back up whenever Murray can't play.

Next they'll probably sign 2 South African world cup winners who will block the progress of Arnold, Daly, Scannell, Holloway, Kleyn and Wycherly. Give it a year: one of Snyman or de Allende will be absent for injury or international call ups and Munster will decry the fact that they have to play Earls at centre or Botha at 5 as they have nobody to step in. Then Ruadhrí O'Connor will write a piece about how Baird, Ryan, Dunne, T O'Brien, C O'Brien and O'Loughlin aren't getting champions cup exposure.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

[curates_egg]

Salanoa off to Connacht and more auctioning off Leinster players in dIndo:
https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 56601.html

We're losing a 7, 8 and 10 according to Ruadhri O'Connor.

That’s not what the article says at all, it says Connacht are interested is saying Aloa to Salanoa and also that the IRFU would prefer if the lads were playing more which could be a way for Munster and ulster to bridge the gap.

That’s a far cry from what you wrote and your after really winding up poor bluemagic who up until now was probably the most Zen guy in the classroom.

I didn't realise the paraphrasing police were on patrol today!

I stick by my paraphrasing being the essential guts of the article, and I don't doubt it at all.
I also trust that bluemagic can also read the article, and share his analysis, which most people on here probably do.

I don't want to lose any player, but I can understand if players in congested positions decide to move.
However, if the IRFU meddles and takes another 10 from us, while we are in the process of developing them, I will be really fecked off.

Likewise for Connacht. If they want to try and take a tighthead (because they need one), fair enough. But not a guy we have invested serious energy in developing - before we have seen any fruit from that. Much as I love him, I wouldn't begrudge Bent leaving or them going for him.

[Jonny tight lips]

Salanoa off to Connacht and more auctioning off Leinster players in dIndo:
https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 56601.html

We're losing a 7, 8 and 10 according to Ruadhri O'Connor.

That’s not what the article says at all, it says Connacht are interested is saying Aloa to Salanoa and also that the IRFU would prefer if the lads were playing more which could be a way for Munster and ulster to bridge the gap.

That’s a far cry from what you wrote and your after really winding up poor bluemagic who up until now was probably the most Zen guy in the classroom.

I didn't realise the paraphrasing police were on patrol today!

I stick by my paraphrasing being the essential guts of the article, and I don't doubt it at all.
I also trust that bluemagic can also read the article, and share his analysis, which most people on here probably do.

I don't want to lose any player, but I can understand if players in congested positions decide to move.
However, if the IRFU meddles and takes another 10 from us, while we are in the process of developing them, I will be really fecked off.

Likewise for Connacht. If they want to try and take a tighthead (because they need one), fair enough. But not a guy we have invested serious energy in developing - before we have seen any fruit from that. Much as I love him, I wouldn't begrudge Bent leaving or them going for him.

We’re loosing a 7, 8 and 10 according to Ruadhri ... he didn’t say or imply that. Connacht are interested in Salanoa is a far cry from Salanoa off to Connacht. Your not paraphrasing your just embellishing what he said to try create a hysteria. Mission accomplished with the next poster. Date I say fake news?

[curates_egg]

This is the Whiff of Cordite thread and that was precisely the purpose of O'Connor's article.
But, whatever floats your boat.