A whiff of Cordite

[blockhead]

Heres the problem though. Taking the positions mentioned above

We have 4 number 7s - Leavy, vd Flier, Connors, Penny

We have 3 number 8s - Conan, Deegan, Doris

We have 4 outhalves - Sexton, Byrne, Frawley, Byrne

We play 32 games.

The problem is that we don't have enough games for the players we have. Now, 12-15% of players will be injured at any one time, that provides opportunities but it isn't something you can plan a career around.

The other big opportunity is as much a problem as it is an opportunity. International windows. There is gametime available during international windows. But for many of the players listed above - in fact probably for all but two or three, that opportunity to play is a negative, because it means you haven't made the national squad. And if one of the reasons you feel you haven't made the squad is because you haven't had enough gametime and exposure, then it becomes a loop of disgruntlement. No matter how professional the players are, and they are, they're going to be pissed off.

And the reality of Irish Rugby is that we exist to service the national team.

Another problem is that amongst the many things Nucifora is demonstrably sh!t at, is managing this process in a way that doesn't create resentment like the way it was done when Carbery was moved, or the way it's being done now

How many games did Bill Johnston get down in Munster before he was shipped out to Ulster? Why would Harry Byrne coming in get any more game time?

The reality is the best place for players to develop is at Leinster because they have the best coaching and are afforded more game time than any other province.

If players are forced to move on it should be players like McFadden, Adam Byrne, Bent rather than the young guys we are developing.

Also, as a young player how many of the moves to different teams have been a success? Maybe Conway?

Conway got 2 winners medals in the last 8 day's of his Leinster career. Then he disappeared for about 4 years before slowly becoming the palyer he is now, that's 4 years lost.
Tadgh Beirne's career blossomed when he went to Scarlets, played some wonderful stuff, has not really done it down south though.
Cooney played in a heino final before joining Connacht, I can't remember him playing for them tbh.
Joey, dear oh dear.

[curates_egg]

Salanoa off to Connacht and more auctioning off Leinster players in dIndo:
https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 56601.html

We're losing a 7, 8 and 10 according to Ruadhri O'Connor.

That’s not what the article says at all, it says Connacht are interested is saying Aloa to Salanoa and also that the IRFU would prefer if the lads were playing more which could be a way for Munster and ulster to bridge the gap.

So, here is Andy Friend stating that they are actively approaching various members of the Leinster squad https://www.the42.ie/andy-friend-connac ... 4-Jan2020/.
More scaremongering by me, no doubt.

Maybe Munster could take Doris and send Jack O'Donoghue to Connacht and O'Sullivan to Ulster...that seems to be how the IRFU is doing things these days.

[colster]

Salanoa off to Connacht and more auctioning off Leinster players in dIndo:
https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 56601.html

We're losing a 7, 8 and 10 according to Ruadhri O'Connor.

That’s not what the article says at all, it says Connacht are interested is saying Aloa to Salanoa and also that the IRFU would prefer if the lads were playing more which could be a way for Munster and ulster to bridge the gap.

So, here is Andy Friend stating that they are actively approaching various members of the Leinster squad https://www.the42.ie/andy-friend-connac ... 4-Jan2020/.
More scaremongering by me, no doubt.

Maybe Munster could take Doris and send Jack O'Donoghue to Connacht and O'Sullivan to Ulster...that seems to be how the IRFU is doing things these days.

I find it pretty weird that a coach can talk about another teams players like this. I can only imagine the uproar if Cullen said something similar.

[Dave Cahill]

How many games did Bill Johnston get down in Munster before he was shipped out to Ulster? Why would Harry Byrne coming in get any more game time?

The reality is the best place for players to develop is at Leinster because they have the best coaching and are afforded more game time than any other province.

If players are forced to move on it should be players like McFadden, Adam Byrne, Bent rather than the young guys we are developing.

Also, as a young player how many of the moves to different teams have been a success? Maybe Conway?

"I don't care about player development, thats somebody elses problem" - Irish Coach

The Irish coach couldn't care less about McFadden, A Byrne or Michael Bent. He is not concerned about the dirt trackers, he wants Furlong AND Porter playing every week. He wants Sexton and the Byrnes playing every week.


(thats an actual quote by the way - the coach has changed but the attitude hasn't)

[curates_egg]

Felipe starting the fightback that our young outhalves are better off staying at Leinster to develop: https://www.the42.ie/leinster-rugby-4965489-Jan2020/

To be fair, he's not wrong. Harry Byrne (our fourth choice) has already got 6 appearances this season.
Compare that with, say, Ben Healy at Munster - despite their injury crisis there. With Munster often going for a 6-2 split on the bench.
I hope no other Leinster back goes to Munster for 'development' purpose, when it is quite clear the opposite happens there.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

"I don't care about player development, thats somebody elses problem" - Irish Coach

The Irish coach couldn't care less about McFadden, A Byrne or Michael Bent. He is not concerned about the dirt trackers, he wants Furlong AND Porter playing every week. He wants Sexton and the Byrnes playing every week.


(thats an actual quote by the way - the coach has changed but the attitude hasn't)

We don't know that for sure. Repeating myself but my hope is that Farrell thinks that players are better off in Leinster so doesn't encourage players to leave.

I think it should be done on a case by case basis and I've no doubt that some players would benefit from a move, but how any coach/administrator could see how good we are at developing players and be eager to upset that is beyond me, especially when other moves haven't worked out so well.

[ribs]

Do the young players have to change university courses if they move provinces?

[LeinsterLeader]

"I don't care about player development, thats somebody elses problem" - Irish Coach

The Irish coach couldn't care less about McFadden, A Byrne or Michael Bent. He is not concerned about the dirt trackers, he wants Furlong AND Porter playing every week. He wants Sexton and the Byrnes playing every week.


(thats an actual quote by the way - the coach has changed but the attitude hasn't)

We don't know that for sure. Repeating myself but my hope is that Farrell thinks that players are better off in Leinster so doesn't encourage players to leave.

I think it should be done on a case by case basis and I've no doubt that some players would benefit from a move, but how any coach/administrator could see how good we are at developing players and be eager to upset that is beyond me, especially when other moves haven't worked out so well.

Interestingly enough their seems to be a growing opinion (amongst the media and ex players from other provinces) that the Leinster academy is just benefiting from players coming out of school already for Pro Rugby and less about the environment itself.

Basically, saying "well if the other academies had players this well preped coming in, they'd be successful to". I don't buy it but it is the way it's being sold.

[Flash Gordon]

"I don't care about player development, thats somebody elses problem" - Irish Coach

The Irish coach couldn't care less about McFadden, A Byrne or Michael Bent. He is not concerned about the dirt trackers, he wants Furlong AND Porter playing every week. He wants Sexton and the Byrnes playing every week.


(thats an actual quote by the way - the coach has changed but the attitude hasn't)

We don't know that for sure. Repeating myself but my hope is that Farrell thinks that players are better off in Leinster so doesn't encourage players to leave.

I think it should be done on a case by case basis and I've no doubt that some players would benefit from a move, but how any coach/administrator could see how good we are at developing players and be eager to upset that is beyond me, especially when other moves haven't worked out so well.

Interestingly enough their seems to be a growing opinion (amongst the media and ex players from other provinces) that the Leinster academy is just benefiting from players coming out of school already for Pro Rugby and less about the environment itself.

Basically, saying "well if the other academies had players this well preped coming in, they'd be successful to". I don't buy it but it is the way it's being sold.

Even if it were true, which I don't believe it is, the schools and clubs system from U-7 club minis to the Academy is part of the Leinster system. Our system is no secret, any club can copy it, the issue of which they are all aware is that it will take 10 years to catch up.

[Ruckedtobits]

"I don't care about player development, thats somebody elses problem" - Irish Coach

The Irish coach couldn't care less about McFadden, A Byrne or Michael Bent. He is not concerned about the dirt trackers, he wants Furlong AND Porter playing every week. He wants Sexton and the Byrnes playing every week.


(thats an actual quote by the way - the coach has changed but the attitude hasn't)

We don't know that for sure. Repeating myself but my hope is that Farrell thinks that players are better off in Leinster so doesn't encourage players to leave.

I think it should be done on a case by case basis and I've no doubt that some players would benefit from a move, but how any coach/administrator could see how good we are at developing players and be eager to upset that is beyond me, especially when other moves haven't worked out so well.

Interestingly enough their seems to be a growing opinion (amongst the media and ex players from other provinces) that the Leinster academy is just benefiting from players coming out of school already for Pro Rugby and less about the environment itself.

Basically, saying "well if the other academies had players this well preped coming in, they'd be successful to". I don't buy it but it is the way it's being sold.

Now THAT is the greatest load of unadulterated s#1te ever spouted. Between the S&C and skills work done in the Sub-Academy (now known as the Centre of Excellence) in Donnybrook ( sorry Energia Park) and the quality and competitive involvement with the Senior Squad when they graduate to Academy level, the players in the Leinster Academy get a hugely accelerated development pathway which has been very carefully prepared over the past 10 Seasons.

Anybody who thinks that putting a label saying "Finished Product on a player coming out of St Michael's, Blackrock, Clongowes or Belvedere is not only deluded but also has demonstrably no understanding of player development.

There are so many aspects to work on and the emphasis changes from player to player and from year to year.

I dare any journo to go back and track the composition of any Irish Schools or Irish U.18 Club Squad of the past 5-7 years and show that any Province, other than Leinster, has sufficiently managed their Player Development pathway.

The other three Provinces have not invested in identifying players, improving players in S&C and Nutrition or focussed on skill improvement and eradication of skill weaknesses. Those are the fundamentals of the work done in the Leinster Sub-Academy (Centre of Excellence). Other than the equipment within the building, there is nothing glamorous about this work - six days a week starting at 7 a.m. hail, rain or shine. But that's what's required and what no other Province has been prepared to emulate.

Easier to go to David Nucifora and tell him We've nobody coming through at 7, or 8, or 10 etc. But Leinster are stockpiling all the best guys in the position we need and we can give him gametime.. Not rocket science but that's what's happening. And unless the young player says No, I happy here and believe I'll win a slot on the Senior team, there's very little to prevent Nucifora allowing another Province to wave a Development Contract (worth roughly €40K at a kid aged 20 or 21 and pressure him and his parents into signing it.

And then the frustration starts and the absence of opportunity or encouragement. Those are the added values elements of young player development that each of the other Provinces have apparently ignored

[OTT]

Not sure where to put this but the discussion here leads it to be an appropriate place. With all the nonsense over the last few weeks about players moving I took a bit of an interest into the backrow in particular as it seemed to be an area where to me that we were managing the whole group pretty well with respect to games and minutes played for each player with the caveat that we have been missing Dan Leavy and Jack Conan who would demand a fair bit of game time when fit.

Over the four provinces 28 players have started in the backrow this season (45 starts available for each province for a total of 180 starts over the 4 provinces) . 9 at Munster, 7 at Leinster, 6 at Ulster and 6 at Connacht. 5 other bona fide backrowers got game time but have not started a game this season yet 3 at Ulster, 1 at Connacht and 1 at Munster. Guys who might have moved to the backrow in a game but have not started there this season are not incled eg Scott Fardy so the total backrow minutes will be very slightly off. Also a player like Josh Murphy also got game time starting in the second row, this appearance or game time was not included on this list. Minutes missed for yellow cards also not accounted for.

It is a big list so instead of just throwing it up as one I have seperated them by province and then numbered them by minutes played overall out of the 33 players.

Show Spoiler:

Leinster

6. Deegan 9(starts) + 4(subs)...819mins
9. Doris 9+3...674
14 Connors 7+1...473
16. Ruddock 6+1...418
20 VDF 5+1...383
21. Murphy 5+3...348
22. Penny 4+1...324

Leinster have chosen to rotate their squad and keep guys involved regularly but not over play them. League wise if you were picking a backrow of the season tomorrow it would not look out of place to have Josh Murphy and Connors flanking either Deegan or Doris at No8. twenty year old Scott Penny also has wracked up a fair few minutes with very positive contributions. All 7 players are IQ with 5 of them knocking on the door of this 6 nations and the other two Murphy and Penny potential future internationals.

With Leavy and Conan to come back into to fold how will the minutes work then.




Munster

1. JOD 11+3...948
10 Botha 6+5...547
11. Stander 7+0...537
12. TOD 7+1...518
13. POM 6+0...480
23. Cloete 4+4...297
26. JOS 1+3...116
27. Beirne 2+0...73
28 Coombs 1+2...81
31. Oliver 0+2...37

Munster have 10 backrowers included on the list, the most of any provinces (shocker!!). They leaned heavily on JOD, Botha and TOD when the internationals were away at the world cup but pretty much loaded up on POM and Stander's game time where ever possible/allowed once they got back they even moved Beirne in the backrow for the Saracens back to backs instead of going with the in form JOD (who is not as young as you would think, nearly 27). To be fair they have given 21 year old academy player Jack O'Sullivan some game time but there have been opportunities to give him a lot more, the same with Coombs. Wycherley who looks a very good prospect has played exclusively at lock this season despite his lack of height. Conor Oliver the Munster academy player of the year as a 20-21 year old who made 15 appearances that season has strangely become the invisible man. If at 24 he does not offer more then a broken down TOD who is winding down his career he never will.

They look like they could do with cutting one or two guys at the end of the season and backing Coombs and O'Sullivan. they will probably renew all contracts and throw in another one or two for good measure though. Hodnett a contemporary of Scott Penny's on the Irish 20s last season who plays 8 or 7 has not pushed through yet but he looked quality.





Connacht

2. Boyle 12+1...928
4. E. Masterson 11+3...861
7. Butler 9+1...742
18. Faingaa 6+1...402
19. Copeland 4+4...385
25. McKeon 3+1...212
32. S. Masterson 0+2 36

Connacht have come in for a bit of stick lately and some of it warranted but they have had a very injury disrupted season and they are down numbers compared to the other provinces. Is the quality there either? You take away Boyle, Faingaa (who is rumoured to be leaving at the end of the season) and Butler and it is not really for me. Eoghan Masterson looks further away from becoming an international then he ever has, Copeland is past his sell by date bar the odd heroic performance that might get him another contract. Eoghan McKeon another guy who has probably reached his peak without ever troubling the Irish selectors, eoghan masterson's brother Sean got two appearances off the bench but he is pushing 22 this month and they still only use when numbers make it a must so maybe he is not rated? SOB is obviously a guy who would add some serious quality to those options above and when he returns from injury it will be like a new signing but they still look like a man or two short and definitely short of quality.



Ulster

3. Reidy 12+2...909
5. Matty Rea 10+3...827
8. Coetzee 10+0...683
15. Murphy 6+0...457
17. Timoney 4+4...416
24. Jones 3+2...254
29. Marcus Rea 0+1...64
30. Ross 0+2...38
33. Azur Allisson 0+1...29

Ulster are running on a pretty tight ship they have 9 players involved but really have only used 6 for the main with Reidy doing a massive job for them at 7 where he had in previous seasons been seen as an 8 or 6. With only losing Murphy to the world cup they have been able to play their first choice team a lot and boy have they done that with 4 players sharing 38 of their 45 backrow starts. You feel guys like Timoney and Jones have been under utilised, the lightning quick Timoney has done a great job for them at 7 and 8 in past seasons and Jones is a very abrasive 6/8. 22 year old Marcus Rea gets a token sub appearance and Clive Ross looks like he will be out the door in the Summer, he is 30 amazing he has been kept around so long imo. he has never really shown the quality for me.

So my biased take home

Leinster have used their talent the best. Everyone must feel they have a shot at selection in the Monday afternoon meeting. Will two more star players fit into this next season?

Munster have loads of backrowers and more in the academy. A few they could probably do without like Cloete and TOD and a few they could do with playing like Oliver, Coombs, JOS and Hodnett and maybe giving Wycherley a chance in the backrow.

Connacht look lite imo. They have some guys of good potential like Boyle, SOB and Butler. They will lose Faingaa and probably could do with getting rid of McKeon, Masterson and Copeland but because of the Irish system that probably wont happen.

Ulster look like they have the players they just don't play them enough. I know it was McFarland's model last season where he kept a core group who played most of the rugby, maybe it is time to build on that they have some guys there who are undercooked and don't need to be and some young guys who could definitely benfit from some experience in the league.

[blockhead]

You can see why a narrative like this would be pushed forward.
A light has been shone on the other 3 provinces academy's like never before.
"How come the Leinster academy is so much better than yours ?" the great unwashed ask

Change the discussion to "Well they're not better, they're just lucky. It's the posh school system giving them mint in box pro rugby players every season. We don't have that."

Next step will be looking for equal access to these posh schools for their own academy's.

[LeinsterLeader]

You can see why a narrative like this would be pushed forward.
A light has been shone on the other 3 provinces academy's like never before.
"How come the Leinster academy is so much better than yours ?" the great unwashed ask

Change the discussion to "Well they're not better, they're just lucky. It's the posh school system giving them mint in box pro rugby players every season. We don't have that."

Next step will be looking for equal access to these posh schools for their own academy's.

Exactly!

In truth I don't think anyone really believes it. It's just another reason being put forward to ease consciences as to why it's okay to take the leinster talent.

[Ruckedtobits]

Great piece of both research and commentary @OTT.

Almost totally agree with your analysis about the pattern of usage / selection by each Coach. The one I think might yet throw up a different picture is Ulster where McFarland's selection and use of Timoney & Jones, in particular, looks like unfinished business. I wonder had he planned more rotation but just can't believe how effective Coetzee is?

But well done on stats & comments

[ronk]

Super post OTT.

Among other things its hard to say that we cant offer young players gametime when we are the best province at doing exactly that.

Young players can get the best development environment and the most gametime. We should be taking the best prospects from other provinces.

[riocard911]

Super post OTT.

Among other things its hard to say that we cant offer young players gametime when we are the best province at doing exactly that.

Young players can get the best development environment and the most gametime. We should be taking the best prospects from other provinces.

We're also the best at maximising their chances of playing for Ireland - the best and most recent example being Harry Byrne: first start in the Pro 14 vs Connacht before Xmas and already he's been called up to train with the national team!!!

[Peg Leg]

Super post OTT.

Among other things its hard to say that we cant offer young players gametime when we are the best province at doing exactly that.

Young players can get the best development environment and the most gametime. We should be taking the best prospects from other provinces.

Good chance of picking up the odd medal or two as well.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Good stuff OTT, thanks for that.

[Twist]

There's little point moaning about things like the draw that are out of their control. Some years you'll get a tough draw, some years easy no matter what seed you are going into it. They've also not had to face a full-strength Saracens side either and still ended up losing that head-to-head.

Yeah, you could say they had a golden opportunity to eliminate Saracens by taking them on at a time when they were weak, but made a mess of it

Would you rather face a full-strength Saracens in the semis or despatch a weakened Saracens in the group stage?

[Twist]

Superb work OTT