A whiff of Cordite

[Dave Cahill]

The Cheetahs are the most popular side in South Africa. It's very hard to imagine them not being involved.

[munster#1]

The league is a farce, and will remain a farce until we see teams regularly fielding their first choice, or even close to first choice squads.

The best of the Irish players play less than 1/2 of the regular season games, yet the Irish provinces have dominated the league almost every season since its inception.

Even the big inter pro games are played with weakened teams.

When you have teams fielding in excess of 50 players in a season, and still going undefeated you can be assured that the Pro 14 is a weak league.

[dropkick]

The league is a farce, and will remain a farce until we see teams regularly fielding their first choice, or even close to first choice squads.

The best of the Irish players play less than 1/2 of the regular season games, yet the Irish provinces have dominated the league almost every season since its inception.

Even the big inter pro games are played with weakened teams.

When you have teams fielding in excess of 50 players in a season, and still going undefeated you can be assured that the Pro 14 is a weak league.

Every league in Europe has weakened teams. Don't buy into the myth that it's only the pro14 that does it.

[munster#1]

The league is a farce, and will remain a farce until we see teams regularly fielding their first choice, or even close to first choice squads.

The best of the Irish players play less than 1/2 of the regular season games, yet the Irish provinces have dominated the league almost every season since its inception.

Even the big inter pro games are played with weakened teams.

When you have teams fielding in excess of 50 players in a season, and still going undefeated you can be assured that the Pro 14 is a weak league.

Every league in Europe has weakened teams. Don't buy into the myth that it's only the pro14 that does it.

Not to the same extent.

Teams like Leinster, Munster and Ulster can go through the full league campaign without fielding their strongest teams and still make the playoffs.

I can’t think of any other league where teams rarely or never play their best team until the knockout stage.

The likes of Sexton, Furlong, Henshaw, Earls, POM, Murray etc never get in to double digit appearances in the league.
Even the Munster V Leinster derby has been reduced to a non contest with 2 weakened teams playing against each other,

The Pro14 can not be considered a competitive league until all teams have to regularly field their first team in order to qualify for the knockout stages.

[dropkick]

The league is a farce, and will remain a farce until we see teams regularly fielding their first choice, or even close to first choice squads.

The best of the Irish players play less than 1/2 of the regular season games, yet the Irish provinces have dominated the league almost every season since its inception.

Even the big inter pro games are played with weakened teams.

When you have teams fielding in excess of 50 players in a season, and still going undefeated you can be assured that the Pro 14 is a weak league.

Every league in Europe has weakened teams. Don't buy into the myth that it's only the pro14 that does it.

Not to the same extent.

Teams like Leinster, Munster and Ulster can go through the full league campaign without fielding their strongest teams and still make the playoffs.

I can’t think of any other league where teams rarely or never play their best team until the knockout stage.

The likes of Sexton, Furlong, Henshaw, Earls, POM, Murray etc never get in to double digit appearances in the league.
Even the Munster V Leinster derby has been reduced to a non contest with 2 weakened teams playing against each other,

The Pro14 can not be considered a competitive league until teams have to regularly field their first team in order to qualify for the knockout stages.

The only way to do that is cut the amount of games to half. That would also limit opportunities for academy players.


Just counting the Saracens' premiership games played in the 2018/19 season. They all played less than 9 games for the 2019/20 season so I didn't bother with that.

George 14/24 games
Itoje 12
Farrell 12
Billy V 10
Mako V 9
Maitland 14
Daly 15


Theyre the internationals. Most other players like Goode, Koch and Barrett played about 15 games. So their internationals play roughly 50% of premiership games while most others play a maximum of 70-75% of game from what I saw.


Maybe the solution for the pro14 is a shortened season of 12 games and have a B tournament of some sort to fill the rest of the season but then that might cost money.

[munster#1]

Every league in Europe has weakened teams. Don't buy into the myth that it's only the pro14 that does it.

Not to the same extent.

Teams like Leinster, Munster and Ulster can go through the full league campaign without fielding their strongest teams and still make the playoffs.

I can’t think of any other league where teams rarely or never play their best team until the knockout stage.

The likes of Sexton, Furlong, Henshaw, Earls, POM, Murray etc never get in to double digit appearances in the league.
Even the Munster V Leinster derby has been reduced to a non contest with 2 weakened teams playing against each other,

The Pro14 can not be considered a competitive league until teams have to regularly field their first team in order to qualify for the knockout stages.

The only way to do that is cut the amount of games to half. That would also limit opportunities for academy players.


Just counting the Saracens' premiership games played in the 2018/19 season. They all played less than 9 games for the 2019/20 season so I didn't bother with that.

George 14/24 games
Itoje 12
Farrell 12
Billy V 10
Mako V 9
Maitland 14
Daly 15


Theyre the internationals. Most other players like Goode, Koch and Barrett played about 15 games. So their internationals play roughly 50% of premiership games while most others play a maximum of 70-75% of game from what I saw.


Maybe the solution for the pro14 is a shortened season of 12 games and have a B tournament of some sort to fill the rest of the season but then that might cost money.

Your second sentence sums up the league perfectly.
The Pro 14 is seen as a development league to develop players for the HC and ultimately team Ireland.
To be fair it is a very effective tool, but until we see the teams feeling the need to field better teams at a minimum for the derby games, we as fans will just have to accept the rightly placed criticism of the league.

[ronk]

Leinster won the league 3 times in a row because they rotate so well, not in spite of it.

Whatever team goes out, goes out to win. It's far better to watch than picking the stars to win at home against 2nd string.

Picking big names for little matches doesn't equate to big performances.

[leinsterforever]

Not to the same extent.

Teams like Leinster, Munster and Ulster can go through the full league campaign without fielding their strongest teams and still make the playoffs.

I can’t think of any other league where teams rarely or never play their best team until the knockout stage.

The likes of Sexton, Furlong, Henshaw, Earls, POM, Murray etc never get in to double digit appearances in the league.
Even the Munster V Leinster derby has been reduced to a non contest with 2 weakened teams playing against each other,

The Pro14 can not be considered a competitive league until teams have to regularly field their first team in order to qualify for the knockout stages.

The only way to do that is cut the amount of games to half. That would also limit opportunities for academy players.


Just counting the Saracens' premiership games played in the 2018/19 season. They all played less than 9 games for the 2019/20 season so I didn't bother with that.

George 14/24 games
Itoje 12
Farrell 12
Billy V 10
Mako V 9
Maitland 14
Daly 15


Theyre the internationals. Most other players like Goode, Koch and Barrett played about 15 games. So their internationals play roughly 50% of premiership games while most others play a maximum of 70-75% of game from what I saw.


Maybe the solution for the pro14 is a shortened season of 12 games and have a B tournament of some sort to fill the rest of the season but then that might cost money.

Your second sentence sums up the league perfectly.
The Pro 14 is seen as a development league to develop players for the HC and ultimately team Ireland.
To be fair it is a very effective tool, but until we see the teams feeling the need to field better teams at a minimum for the derby games, we as fans will just have to accept the rightly placed criticism of the league.

It's a bit pointless criticism unless there's a solution, which there isn't that I can see.

As I see it in a league that has four national teams drawn from it you can have one but not both of the following:

a. a league with about 20 regular season matches

b. first choice players playing all the time for provinces that play a total of 10-15 games a season

[Dexter]

There was a good discussion with Matt Williams (IMO) on OTB this week, maybe yesterday? He made the point about the Irish media running down the league at every possible opportunity - which then feeds into the public perception. The Pro14 has a different purpose to the English and French leagues.

[fourthirtythree]

Leinster won the league 3 times in a row because they rotate so well, not in spite of it.

Whatever team goes out, goes out to win. It's far better to watch than picking the stars to win at home against 2nd string.

Picking big names for little matches doesn't equate to big performances.

It's also the only way Leinster can win in the medium to long term. SUre there are "stars" to play now, but if we don't rotate the youngsters in during the season, in particular early on so that they are ready to play during the international windows when the stars aren't available, we won't have any "stars" in five years time. It's not a luxury option, it's what we are left with.

[munster#1]

The only way to do that is cut the amount of games to half. That would also limit opportunities for academy players.


Just counting the Saracens' premiership games played in the 2018/19 season. They all played less than 9 games for the 2019/20 season so I didn't bother with that.

George 14/24 games
Itoje 12
Farrell 12
Billy V 10
Mako V 9
Maitland 14
Daly 15


Theyre the internationals. Most other players like Goode, Koch and Barrett played about 15 games. So their internationals play roughly 50% of premiership games while most others play a maximum of 70-75% of game from what I saw.


Maybe the solution for the pro14 is a shortened season of 12 games and have a B tournament of some sort to fill the rest of the season but then that might cost money.

Your second sentence sums up the league perfectly.
The Pro 14 is seen as a development league to develop players for the HC and ultimately team Ireland.
To be fair it is a very effective tool, but until we see the teams feeling the need to field better teams at a minimum for the derby games, we as fans will just have to accept the rightly placed criticism of the league.

It's a bit pointless criticism unless there's a solution, which there isn't that I can see.

As I see it in a league that has four national teams drawn from it you can have one but not both of the following:

a. a league with about 20 regular season matches

b. first choice players playing all the time for provinces that play a total of 10-15 games a season

I’m not sure it is a problem that requires a solution, as the league is a development tool for the national teams, and it has been a very successful tool for the Irish national team, with good depth being developed in almost every position.

But having the positive of being a good development tool does not absolve it from criticism, and many detractors are correct when the slate the league.
It is a poor quality league, with many poor quality teams, and one that the best players rarely play in.

[joooooe]

"Leinster need to follow Munster’s lead and sign some marquee names": https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.4363775

Johnny Watterson is finally given his chance to fill in for Le Petit Generale GT and he blows it in the first six words of the headline.

The article itself is well-reasoned, even if it is (in my opinion) ultimately incorrect.

We've been here before (see about 90% of the comments since the final whistle last weekend) but personally I love the Athletic Bilbao nature of Leinster these days and would far prefer to win a Pro14 with a largely home-developed pool of players than tag on another star with a team full of mercenaries.

He also missed a chance to make a pun on the word "star" in the headline. "Want stars? Go get some stars" or "5 star Leinster will require international constellation". Gerry got into a fist fight with the sub-eds when he asked for "les etoiles".

[Oldschool]

"Leinster need to follow Munster’s lead and sign some marquee names": https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.4363775

Johnny Watterson is finally given his chance to fill in for Le Petit Generale GT and he blows it in the first six words of the headline.

The article itself is well-reasoned, even if it is (in my opinion) ultimately incorrect.

We've been here before (see about 90% of the comments since the final whistle last weekend) but personally I love the Athletic Bilbao nature of Leinster these days and would far prefer to win a Pro14 with a largely home-developed pool of players than tag on another star with a team full of mercenaries.

He also missed a chance to make a pun on the word "star" in the headline. "Want stars? Go get some stars" or "5 star Leinster will require international constellation". Gerry got into a fist fight with the sub-eds when he asked for "les etoiles".

In actual fact Munster need to follow Leinster's lead.
Without reading the article-
Marquee names that would suit our needs are George Kruis or someone of his ilk.
Success is all relative.
Making the QF of the HCC is success.
Making the SF of the HCC is success.
Actually winning the HCC is a milestone.
Winning it move than once is exceptional.
Winning the HCC usually involves one really big get out of jail purple patch, the Northampton Final.
Or blind bit of luck Ulster in 2018 SF.
We've had all that, why would we want to change our go it alone self sufficiency which ultimately damages our own long term prospects not to mention the national team. Keep giving our own lads their chances.
The only reason we should be signing niq players is to help fill gaps because of international demand on our players. Fardy, Thorn and Hines being exceptional examples.

[dropkick]

It's a bit pointless criticism unless there's a solution, which there isn't that I can see.

As I see it in a league that has four national teams drawn from it you can have one but not both of the following:

a. a league with about 20 regular season matches

b. first choice players playing all the time for provinces that play a total of 10-15 games a season

I’m not sure it is a problem that requires a solution, as the league is a development tool for the national teams, and it has been a very successful tool for the Irish national team, with good depth being developed in almost every position.

But having the positive of being a good development tool does not absolve it from criticism, and many detractors are correct when the slate the league.
It is a poor quality league, with many poor quality teams, and one that the best players rarely play in.

I know all this talk is because of leinster losing the match but Ireland and Wales have won the 6 nations 3 times each in the last decade. If the league was as poor as being made out, those wins would be impossible. Its moved beyond being a development tool at this stage because where a team finishes can make or break players and coaches' careers.


It has problems and could be better but there are still good matches every week. If the 4 South African heavyweights join then the standard will increase and it would be no harm for the irish teams to be challenged more often. You would then have Zebre and Dragons (and usually another Welsh team) as poor quality teams out of 16.

[Xanthippe]

"Leinster need to follow Munster’s lead and sign some marquee names": https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.4363775

Johnny Watterson is finally given his chance to fill in for Le Petit Generale GT and he blows it in the first six words of the headline.

Ouch, and even oucher is that BOD agreed with him!!! Said we need a Rocky Elsom, Brad Thorn or Beanz because good as Fardy is we need our 'enforcer' to be starting EVERY game.

[Ruckedtobits]

Although the title line of this thread would not have been his style, I wonder has anybody got any news as to whether Peter O'Reilly is still with the Sunday Times? Although today's mediocre, cut-price size, Sports Supplement contains reports on two Irish Provincial games, there's no sign of O'Reilly's by-line. Stephen ($h!t€) Jones reports on Munster's back-from-the-dead encounter in Wales and Sean Fallon celebrates (rightly) the Connacht triumph in Galway, but there's a total absence of commentary or coverage of Leinster or discussion of the upcoming Irish panel selection by Andy Farrell.

The ST has become a parody of a serious broadsheet in any event but total abstinence from any considered rugby coverage will save a wasted €3.20 every week.

[betty swallocks]

Couldn't agree more on the lack of an article on the upcoming international squad. Does the Sindo have anything today?

[backrower8]

I would expect him to tweet if he wasn’t working with Sunday Times. MIA 1 week. Hold fire.

[Laighin Break]

The42's description of Munster's comeback was a bit much:

"History has been filled with great comebacks, Elvis at Las Vegas, Liverpool at Istanbul. Now this"

They could have at least included the greatest comeback of all time.

[Peg Leg]

The42's description of Munster's comeback was a bit much:

"History has been filled with great comebacks, Elvis at Las Vegas, Liverpool at Istanbul. Now this"

They could have at least included the greatest comeback of all time.

Isa?