A whiff of Cordite

[nc6000]

Thornley managed the impressive feat of squeezing “a la” into yesterday’s and today’s IT. Easy to find him in the pub anyway - “A la, ou?” “At bar”

Wouldn't that mean Gerry was breaching the table service only Covid19 guideline? He'd hardly do that.

[Blue not red blood]

Didnt see the paper today but oh how I miss,

" The 7.35 kick off time is always conducive to a great atmosphere under lights at HQ "

What he really means is everyone is half pissed

[Ruckedtobits]

It's nice to read about the same game as you watched and Thornley produces another of his excellent reports in the IT. Good report, observant comments, emotionless but accurate.

Enjoy.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.4353701

[EarthGorilla]

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 27606.html

Just reading the latest in the line of "pRiVaTe ScHoOlS r bAsIcAlLy pRo" and BUT POPULATION derp whingefests about how utterly terrible it is for us to be so good. The solution of course is for the other 3 provinces try to mirror our culture? Don't be silly. It is drafts and further dilute the provincial game by dragging Leinster down to be as bad as the rest of them. You know, for the good of Irish rugby. Genius. At this point I'm convinced all this excuse mongering and whining about "provate" schools is just indicative of defeatist loser mentality.

I'd love to go back to around 12th April 2009 when defending Heinken Cup champs Munster, who look sure to stroll to 3 from 4 European Cups, have just pumped the Ospreys in a 1 sided European QF, 1 week on from pumping Leinster in Thomond Park. They are preparing for an effortless procession in Croke Park, they merely need to show up. I'm sure the balanced media coverage was all about drafts and how this is very very bad for Irish rugby? Anyone remember?

[Blue not red blood]

The usual cr@p about it not being fair while failing to acknowledge the hard work and attention to details that brings its own rewards,
Standards are never allowed to be dropped and the kids in the sub academy know they will be given every chance.
The pathetic cr@p coming from some quarters is frankly embarrassing .
As a big Dublin fan I have nothing but admiration for the way Kerry have taken their defeats in recent years. They are developing a super young team that will win more than one All Ireland in the coming years.
No whinging or trying to sign Dublin players ( which they cant ) but a realisation that to compete they had to develop their young players. They know it wouldnt bring success immediately but will over time.
Maybe Munster rugby should ask them for advice

[blockhead]

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 27606.html

Just reading the latest in the line of "pRiVaTe ScHoOlS r bAsIcAlLy pRo" and BUT POPULATION derp whingefests about how utterly terrible it is for us to be so good. The solution of course is for the other 3 provinces try to mirror our culture? Don't be silly. It is drafts and further dilute the provincial game by dragging Leinster down to be as bad as the rest of them. You know, for the good of Irish rugby. Genius. At this point I'm convinced all this excuse mongering and whining about "provate" schools is just indicative of defeatist loser mentality.

I'd love to go back to around 12th April 2009 when defending Heinken Cup champs Munster, who look sure to stroll to 3 from 4 European Cups, have just pumped the Ospreys in a 1 sided European QF, 1 week on from pumping Leinster in Thomond Park. They are preparing for an effortless procession in Croke Park, they merely need to show up. I'm sure the balanced media coverage was all about drafts and how this is very very bad for Irish rugby? Anyone remember?

You get articles like that from time to time when a certain teams dominance over their rivals is disscussed immeadiately after yet another success. However, its nearly always written as a tribute to a wonderful team, a team to be lauded and cherished in a "we may never see their likes again" type eulogy.
But with Leinster and the Dubs in the gah, its something to be worried about, "it'll ruin the game if this type of stuff continues", "sure they have an unfair advantage", and so on. In fact that article could easily be reused for the Dubs 6-in-a-row, just change a few key words.
Calls for the break-up of the teams, or stripping of their talent is loud and frequent for both teams. Some prominent sh!thead from Meath wants the Dubs to be split in 4 FFS! To ensure they can't win again I presume.
It's bregrudery, fup em all.

[riocard911]

Ruaidhrí O'Connor in the Indo calling our Pro 14 final victory over Ulster "facile" is pure begrudgery.

[EarthGorilla]

I wouldn't mind as much but we had our successful run from 09-14 or so and then a few years of being also rans, albeit good ones. We had the conveyor belt back then, MOC just refused to play them and bemoaned not being able to fill his squad with a who's who of international rugby. An awful appointment all around. Nobody was talking about drafts and population then, of course.

What did we do? Leo came in, it got worse before it got better, because he stripped it down and built it back up using youth. All of a sudden, we are too good and it is awful. I'm convinced that when we declined in 2014 the others assumed their next cycle was next up and they'd get a chance to catch up on the trophy count. Instead the next successful cycle was us again and they just cannot handle it. I expect it from them. But to see reputable journalists lazily trotting out this cr@p, as if players just develop themselves, or as if this is a given, and totally forgetting the MOC years, is a disgrace. Nucifora is doing enough damage to the provinces on his own without this nonsense.

IMO right now Munster are starting to finally come out of where we were under MOC. They just did it for longer, ie the definition of madness. They have tried to cut corner and fast track success because it kills them that the team winning when they arent, is us. And they are reaping what they sow for it. But it is us who get criticized, for being too good. It's a joke. Small mentality all around.

[hugonaut]

Meh. O'Connor has to write a couple of articles a day, some of these are bound to crop up. Clearly Leinster set the standard at the moment, just as Ulster [in the 80s] and Munster [for much of the 00s] previously set the standard.

I say this pretty frequently [so apologies for repeating myself], but if demographics were the be-all and end-all of success, the Auckland Blues would have won 10 Super Rugby titles, not Canterbury. That's the best example, but there are others – France hasn't won the Six Nations in a decade, despite having five times as many registered male senior players as Ireland [3 titles] and an even higher multiplier compared to Wales [3 titles]. Demographics don't make successful teams; culture makes successful teams.

I am not saying that Leinster don't have advantages in some areas over the other provinces. That's the way the cookie crumbles. We heard for well over a decade how knowledgable and rugby-smart Munster teams were, how strong Munster club rugby was compared to Leinster club rugby, and how popular and ingrained rugby was in the culture of Munster. They have failed to use that lever effectively.

[Ruckedtobits]

Meh. O'Connor has to write a couple of articles a day, some of these are bound to crop up. Clearly Leinster set the standard at the moment, just as Ulster [in the 80s] and Munster [for much of the 00s] previously set the standard.

I say this pretty frequently [so apologies for repeating myself], but if demographics were the be-all and end-all of success, the Auckland Blues would have won 10 Super Rugby titles, not Canterbury. That's the best example, but there are others – France hasn't won the Six Nations in a decade, despite having five times as many registered male senior players as Ireland [3 titles] and an even higher multiplier compared to Wales [3 titles]. Demographics don't make successful teams; culture makes successful teams.

I am not saying that Leinster don't have advantages in some areas over the other provinces. That's the way the cookie crumbles. We heard for well over a decade how knowledgable and rugby-smart Munster teams were, how strong Munster club rugby was compared to Leinster club rugby, and how popular and ingrained rugby was in the culture of Munster. They have failed to use that lever effectively.

+1
Well said Hugo.

Those behind 'the Leinster Way' had many models to review and examine and among them was Kilkenny hurling. From Brian Cody they learned that the most unique motivation within a Squad of players is the competition for places on the team-sheet.

Leo himself saw this in action in Rugby at two earlier times in his career. First there was the second-row merry-go-round at National level under Eddie O'Sullivan when Donncha, Paulie, Mick O'Driscoll were vying with Leo & Mal O'Kelly and even the odd Ulsterman.

Then there was Leo and Shane Jennings' experience in Leicester Tigers where the toughest encounter of the week - including match-day - was always Tuesday and the Best and the Rest sometimes played four quarters of Rugby League before the Coaches selected their weekend team on Wednesday. Those Tuesday sessions were legendary, not because they happened but because they produced the toughest, and one of the most successful, teams in English Club rugby.

When Robbie Henshaw plucked off an intercept of Burns' pass last Saturday, I instinctively felt that he and Josh had rehearsed intercepting a pass bound for Coetzee. Robbie didn't see it as a pass from a particular Ulster player. He saw it as an inevitable pass to a particular player. That is part of how Leinster train and prepare to compete.

The players and the backroom brains try to put themselves into the minds of their opponents and look for any scap of information or insight that gives them an advantage.

To revert to the Kilkenny hurling analogy, when Tipp appointed Sheedy as their Manager he didn't look for any shortcuts to immediate success. He told his players that if they wanted an All-Ireland medal, they'd first have to figure out how to work harder and smarter than Kilkenny. Because if they couldn't do that they'd never win a McCarthy Cup. He then reminded them they'd also have to be fitter, smarter and better hurlers than Squads from Cork, Clare and Waterford before they even got a shot at Kilkenny.

Motivation is the key starting point and keeping it going is even harder than finding it in the first place. That's why what Leo and Stuart have achieved thus far is both extraordinary, and, potentially, sustainable for as long as Leinster can keep unearthing new talent and allowing them free competition with the incumbents.

Enough said. Really looking forward to Part 5 on Saturday. The last one in this Series for which the script was written even before we started the first one.

[ormond lad]

Meh. O'Connor has to write a couple of articles a day, some of these are bound to crop up. Clearly Leinster set the standard at the moment, just as Ulster [in the 80s] and Munster [for much of the 00s] previously set the standard.

I say this pretty frequently [so apologies for repeating myself], but if demographics were the be-all and end-all of success, the Auckland Blues would have won 10 Super Rugby titles, not Canterbury. That's the best example, but there are others – France hasn't won the Six Nations in a decade, despite having five times as many registered male senior players as Ireland [3 titles] and an even higher multiplier compared to Wales [3 titles]. Demographics don't make successful teams; culture makes successful teams.

I am not saying that Leinster don't have advantages in some areas over the other provinces. That's the way the cookie crumbles. We heard for well over a decade how knowledgable and rugby-smart Munster teams were, how strong Munster club rugby was compared to Leinster club rugby, and how popular and ingrained rugby was in the culture of Munster. They have failed to use that lever effectively.

But in France at age grade do kids(many) have access/coaching like what happens here in Ireland? No. Schools dont play in France.
Culture makes successful teams and yes demographics dont but they certainly help a lot.
In all the time Munster clubs were winning AIL etc Leinster were still miles ahead at most age grade levels.
Leinster can afford to not put as much work into the top schools with their pro staff as they dont need to and can concentrate on smaller schools and the clubs. Other provinces have to try do both and dont have resources in terms number of development officers either so gap is only going to get bigger

[ronk]

France have a national academy that starts players on an effectively pro path much earlier than ours.

[Oldschool]

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 27606.html

Just reading the latest in the line of "pRiVaTe ScHoOlS r bAsIcAlLy pRo" and BUT POPULATION derp whingefests about how utterly terrible it is for us to be so good. The solution of course is for the other 3 provinces try to mirror our culture? Don't be silly. It is drafts and further dilute the provincial game by dragging Leinster down to be as bad as the rest of them. You know, for the good of Irish rugby. Genius. At this point I'm convinced all this excuse mongering and whining about "provate" schools is just indicative of defeatist loser mentality.

I'd love to go back to around 12th April 2009 when defending Heinken Cup champs Munster, who look sure to stroll to 3 from 4 European Cups, have just pumped the Ospreys in a 1 sided European QF, 1 week on from pumping Leinster in Thomond Park. They are preparing for an effortless procession in Croke Park, they merely need to show up. I'm sure the balanced media coverage was all about drafts and how this is very very bad for Irish rugby? Anyone remember?

I can vaguely remember the SF that season.

[Oldschool]

Ruaidhrí O'Connor in the Indo calling our Pro 14 final victory over Ulster "facile" is pure begrudgery.

Well it was a bit too easy wasn't it.

[neiliog93]

Big French clubs also have 'espoir' teams of teenagers, who are in a much more professional set-up at that age than our guys. It is part of the reasons that they tend to be noticeably bigger than our guys at under-20 level (as well as demographics), but not at senior pro level.

[Peg Leg]

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 27606.html

Just reading the latest in the line of "pRiVaTe ScHoOlS r bAsIcAlLy pRo" and BUT POPULATION derp whingefests about how utterly terrible it is for us to be so good. The solution of course is for the other 3 provinces try to mirror our culture? Don't be silly. It is drafts and further dilute the provincial game by dragging Leinster down to be as bad as the rest of them. You know, for the good of Irish rugby. Genius. At this point I'm convinced all this excuse mongering and whining about "provate" schools is just indicative of defeatist loser mentality.

I'd love to go back to around 12th April 2009 when defending Heinken Cup champs Munster, who look sure to stroll to 3 from 4 European Cups, have just pumped the Ospreys in a 1 sided European QF, 1 week on from pumping Leinster in Thomond Park. They are preparing for an effortless procession in Croke Park, they merely need to show up. I'm sure the balanced media coverage was all about drafts and how this is very very bad for Irish rugby? Anyone remember?

There are a limited number of sub academy and academy positions. If you want a draft system, start looking to the input rather than the output. If the semi-professional set up in Leinster private schools is so good then, scout it. Leinster will get their first preferences for academy hires, but if there is an over supply, then have at it, they would fall through the cracks otherwise.
Commit to developing youth in your own provinces by developing the structures in the schools. I think I heard Jerry Flannery suggesting that schools should combine their resources to hire a professional coach. Use the over supply of Leinster schools players to shore up the pipeline whilst the development structures get up and running. I am sure there are lots of other ways of doing it, but that's a start and its far more effective than pissing and moaning about fairness.

[joooooe]

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 27606.html

Just reading the latest in the line of "pRiVaTe ScHoOlS r bAsIcAlLy pRo" and BUT POPULATION derp whingefests about how utterly terrible it is for us to be so good. The solution of course is for the other 3 provinces try to mirror our culture? Don't be silly. It is drafts and further dilute the provincial game by dragging Leinster down to be as bad as the rest of them. You know, for the good of Irish rugby. Genius. At this point I'm convinced all this excuse mongering and whining about "provate" schools is just indicative of defeatist loser mentality.

I'd love to go back to around 12th April 2009 when defending Heinken Cup champs Munster, who look sure to stroll to 3 from 4 European Cups, have just pumped the Ospreys in a 1 sided European QF, 1 week on from pumping Leinster in Thomond Park. They are preparing for an effortless procession in Croke Park, they merely need to show up. I'm sure the balanced media coverage was all about drafts and how this is very very bad for Irish rugby? Anyone remember?

There are a limited number of sub academy and academy positions. If you want a draft system, start looking to the input rather than the output. If the semi-professional set up in Leinster private schools is so good then, scout it. Leinster will get their first preferences for academy hires, but if there is an over supply, then have at it, they would fall through the cracks otherwise.
Commit to developing youth in your own provinces by developing the structures in the schools. I think I heard Jerry Flannery suggesting that schools should combine their resources to hire a professional coach. Use the over supply of Leinster schools players to shore up the pipeline whilst the development structures get up and running. I am sure there are lots of other ways of doing it, but that's a start and its far more effective than pissing and moaning about fairness.

But why put structures in place when you blow a million quid on 2 world cup winners? The short-term success-at-any-cost model has pervaded the thinking in all provinces at one stage or another (with the possible exception of Connacht). Ulster and Leinster have come out the other side and determined that the real value is investing in structures, not people (or at least not in high profile players).

A lot of accounts of De Allende and Snyman said that their salaries have been heavily subsidised by private investment. In Leinster the private investment was spent on a new training base and offices rather than an all black or a world cup winner. Priorities.

[FLIP]

The latest wheeze from this side of the Irish sea is that the Pro14 should have a salary cap. This is coming straight faced from English rugby supporters.

I doubt any one province would have been anywhere near above the average salary level in the prem pre-covid.

[cormac]

The latest wheeze from this side of the Irish sea is that the Pro14 should have a salary cap. This is coming straight faced from English rugby supporters.

I doubt any one province would have been anywhere near above the average salary level in the prem pre-covid.

I'd imagine Leinster's total salary costs are higher than most English clubs. You don't get a squad of internationals on the cheap.

[mildlyinterested]

The latest wheeze from this side of the Irish sea is that the Pro14 should have a salary cap. This is coming straight faced from English rugby supporters.

I doubt any one province would have been anywhere near above the average salary level in the prem pre-covid.

I'd imagine Leinster's total salary costs are higher than most English clubs. You don't get a squad of internationals on the cheap.

Yeah leinster's squad isn't cheap. difficult to make a one to one comparison though.