Change to NIQs

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Hippo
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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by Hippo »

ceemec wrote:
Hippo wrote:According to the 'Four Guiding Principles', "a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract". That seems fairly clear.
On Off The Ball last week, it was clarified that a player could be re-signed in a different position.
Fair enough. I look forward to the horse trading.
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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by sheepshagger »

Irish Times reporting today that Nacewa won't be offered a new contract when the current one ends (because of these changes) :? :(

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deco
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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by deco »

The pompous f'ing git:

"We have been around for 130 years and we have to be around successfully for another 130 years."

Well if they've fecked up to date, maybe they should exit stage left & let the success stories of Irish rugby get on with things.

This whole crazy idea is just a reflex reaction to getting beaten by Wales at the WC. The young lads are coming through, the provinces are playing them, but Judas (and Eddie before him) won't play them.
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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by simonokeeffe »

Maybe it's a sneaky way of encouraging the provinces to go with Irish coaches, downside is you can get a relic like Ulster did
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Flakey 16
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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by Flakey 16 »

sheepshagger wrote:Irish Times reporting today that Nacewa won't be offered a new contract when the current one ends (because of these changes) :? :(

crazy stuff......... IRFU are really going to feck up the provinces.......

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/extinct/4od#2922465

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=528HoWAprvo

Nacewa is the reason a lot of kids want to play rugby in this country.....

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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by BlueBlue »

Its going to be very difficult to manage. Also all signing are approved by IRFU , so the IRFU could have achieved this in a way that is not so heavy handed and unwieldy .
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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by Big-alster »

simonokeeffe wrote:Maybe it's a sneaky way of encouraging the provinces to go with Irish coaches, downside is you can get a relic like Ulster did
McLaughlin is a good coach, its just his supporting staff if non existant. He's basically got an idiot in Neil Doak as attack/skills coach and the very inexperienced, but highly rated Jonny Bell as defence coach.

Mclaughlin coaches the forwards

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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by cormac »

simonokeeffe wrote:Maybe it's a sneaky way of encouraging the provinces to go with Irish coaches, downside is you can get a relic like Ulster did
or you'll end up like the Welsh regions.
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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by enby »

Scenario: its 2014 and I'm the agent for a former French international tight head prop reaching the end of his career. I need to get him one last decent contract but all I can secure is a couple of unexciting offers from local clubs. Ulster's Irish tight head suffers a season-ending cruciate injury. Munster have a NIQ tight head contracted under the Wigglesworth scheme. I contact the Ulster management to say that my man is ready and willing (for some reason best known to himself!!) to move to Ravenhill only to be told that Ulster cannot even talk to me. I discover that this is because of the IRFU ban on the recruitment of NIQ players in positions that have been filled in other teams by another NIQ player. My local French lawyer tells me that this is a flagrant breach of EU law as my client, a citizen of a Member State of the EU, is denied, solely because of his nationality, the opportunity to work and earn a living in another EU State.

Do I (a) shrug my Gallic shoulders and mutter c'est la vie or (b) advise my man to sue the IRFU for the value of the contract denied to me by Wigglesworth and his mates??

Forking out money to a player for never playing (and of course the associated legal costs) will be a great use of IRFU resources.

Believe me, this will definitely happen unless of course the EU Commission takes steps first to prevent the IRFU from implementing this illegal and discriminatory scheme

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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by simonokeeffe »

Big-alster wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:Maybe it's a sneaky way of encouraging the provinces to go with Irish coaches, downside is you can get a relic like Ulster did
McLaughlin is a good coach, its just his supporting staff if non existant. He's basically got an idiot in Neil Doak as attack/skills coach and the very inexperienced, but highly rated Jonny Bell as defence coach.

Mclaughlin coaches the forwards
McLaughlin thinks Chris Henry is an openside wing forward and that Adam Darcy is a rugby player

Will definitely be harder to attract non Irish coaches with the player management program and this signings carousel, debatable whether it will help Irish coaches develop, more experience for them quicker but less experienced heads to learn from
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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by Hippo »

enby wrote:Scenario: its 2014 and I'm the agent for a former French international tight head prop reaching the end of his career. I need to get him one last decent contract but all I can secure is a couple of unexciting offers from local clubs. Ulster's Irish tight head suffers a season-ending cruciate injury. Munster have a NIQ tight head contracted under the Wigglesworth scheme. I contact the Ulster management to say that my man is ready and willing (for some reason best known to himself!!) to move to Ravenhill only to be told that Ulster cannot even talk to me. I discover that this is because of the IRFU ban on the recruitment of NIQ players in positions that have been filled in other teams by another NIQ player. My local French lawyer tells me that this is a flagrant breach of EU law as my client, a citizen of a Member State of the EU, is denied, solely because of his nationality, the opportunity to work and earn a living in another EU State.

Do I (a) shrug my Gallic shoulders and mutter c'est la vie or (b) advise my man to sue the IRFU for the value of the contract denied to me by Wigglesworth and his mates??

Forking out money to a player for never playing (and of course the associated legal costs) will be a great use of IRFU resources.

Believe me, this will definitely happen unless of course the EU Commission takes steps first to prevent the IRFU from implementing this illegal and discriminatory scheme
Like I said, I reckon the IRFU are assuming that given how few European players have plied their trade here it won't become a legal issue. It's clearly aimed at SH imports.
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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by Dave Cahill »

enby wrote: Believe me, this will definitely happen unless of course the EU Commission takes steps first to prevent the IRFU from implementing this illegal and discriminatory scheme
Let me assure you, of all the problems with this scheme, its legality under EU employment law is not one of them. The organisers of a national representative sporting side are quite entitled to discriminate - its actually inherent in what they do. The IRFU are delighted with how all the responses have focussed around this, because its not a problem for them.

Theres only one way to hurt them and make them think again, but heres the thing, for all the sturm und drang at the moment, when the 6 Nations tickets are being doled out, people will be after them like mickey grushie in a nunnery.
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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by slum »

enby wrote:Scenario: its 2014 and I'm the agent for a former French international tight head prop reaching the end of his career. I need to get him one last decent contract but all I can secure is a couple of unexciting offers from local clubs. Ulster's Irish tight head suffers a season-ending cruciate injury. Munster have a NIQ tight head contracted under the Wigglesworth scheme. I contact the Ulster management to say that my man is ready and willing (for some reason best known to himself!!) to move to Ravenhill only to be told that Ulster cannot even talk to me. I discover that this is because of the IRFU ban on the recruitment of NIQ players in positions that have been filled in other teams by another NIQ player. My local French lawyer tells me that this is a flagrant breach of EU law as my client, a citizen of a Member State of the EU, is denied, solely because of his nationality, the opportunity to work and earn a living in another EU State.

Do I (a) shrug my Gallic shoulders and mutter c'est la vie or (b) advise my man to sue the IRFU for the value of the contract denied to me by Wigglesworth and his mates??

Forking out money to a player for never playing (and of course the associated legal costs) will be a great use of IRFU resources.

Believe me, this will definitely happen unless of course the EU Commission takes steps first to prevent the IRFU from implementing this illegal and discriminatory scheme

The highlighted bit is actually not correct. He is not being denied purely because of his nationality, he is being denied because of his ineligibility to play for a national team under the IRB rules. Take Strauss for example... i believe they are within their rights.
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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by gfo »

I think its odd that people think less NIQs is a punishment for Leinster. It negates the advantage of our superior academy I suppose, but if Joe wanted to be cynical, he'd sign journeyman NIQs in positions important for Munster/Ulster just to cause them hassle.
Unless the IRFU are openly playing favourites, they'd have to sign one of the unnecessary Leinster players, causing a shortfall in the other provinces.
(I.E. if Leinster need 0 backrow players and Munster need 2, Joe would sign a cr@p backrow player just so Munster are forced to play an inferior Irish player.)


The IRFU should call a spade a spade and say they just want more Irish frontrowers.

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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by Norsider »

So the head honchos think that the way to make the Irish team better is to make sure that the second string players within the national team get more game time so that they improve as players and push the incumbent in the jersey onto better performances, dare I say it, like sexton and rog?

As an ambition i think this actually makes sense. However the way they're going about trying to achieve gos against the principal that underpins it, ie prevent pinar from playing at ulster as it will hold up marshals progress, rather than let pinar in and see if marshal lifts his game enough to live with him (I'm sure there are better examples than that). It gos without saying that you learn from your betters, do we want marshal and o'brien to lean their trade from the likes of pinar and rocky or from playing mediocre opposition in the league week in week out? Which scenario will make them better players?

As a plan to deliver quality this plan fails as it removes regular access to the best players In the world from a developing player. It is also dangerous.

Imagine for a minute it's in place now. Come the six nations we loose Healy and Ross to the national set up, we don't have heinke or White as munster and ulster are in greater need at prop position. We're then left with Hagan, no harm there, plus an other, plus two green acadamie props with no game time under their belt (remember messers Healy and Ross holding up their progress.....) on the bench. It would be great to think that every Irish teen ager is ready for pro 12 rugby, can't say I believe they are.

So even looking at props alone this succession plan does not work, and let's face it that's where it's aimed.

Now as were told the irfu has been around for 130 years, so let's look at a different way to improve a representative team performance. 10 years ago the words Dublin and hurling went all that often connected, without laughter. Then you started seeing kids all over Dublin walking around with hurls on a sat morning, and they stuck at it, rebuilding from the bottom up, now Dublin are performing a world away from where they were ten years ago, not yet playing in September but give them another five years and they might be. The irfu want an instant fix to a problem than cannot be fixed in an instant - they want their semi final and come he'll or high water they'll get it, only problem is they seem to think world class players can be created in 4 years. An exceptional talent can be turned into a world class player in four years, an average player cannot.

Maybe the compromise would be to identify the real talent in the academies or in the U20 squad and plan for their progress, create a plan whereby they are given as much game time as possible, be it within Ireland or outside it- but hey shur that would be loads of hard work, why not just blame johny foreigner for mucking up the results of the senior team, that'd be far easier now wouldn't it........

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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by glorob »

Dave Cahill wrote:
enby wrote: Believe me, this will definitely happen unless of course the EU Commission takes steps first to prevent the IRFU from implementing this illegal and discriminatory scheme
Let me assure you, of all the problems with this scheme, its legality under EU employment law is not one of them. The organisers of a national representative sporting side are quite entitled to discriminate - its actually inherent in what they do. The IRFU are delighted with how all the responses have focussed around this, because its not a problem for them.

Theres only one way to hurt them and make them think again, but heres the thing, for all the sturm und drang at the moment, when the 6 Nations tickets are being doled out, people will be after them like mickey grushie in a nunnery.
Most of the tickets for the 2012 6 Nations are already sold.

Maybe we should stay away from the November 2012 Internationals?

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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by jezzer »

If there's one thIng that the IRFU has gotten wrong in terms of squad management over the last decade it's the sense of entitlement there seems to be around centrally contracted players right to be picked for their provincial teams, irrespective of form.

With a player like Nacewa in the squad, Kearney, Fitz, Horgan, mcFadden all know their place is not safe and that they will not start every game regardless (and that's with IRFU influence already over provincial squads).

When the front liners have no top level foreigners to fight off and only have to worry about the younger pretenders, they're going to stroll into practice knowing that they more or less have to be picked. Sure joe will rotate, but the usual suspects will get the starting roles for the key games and there'll be fewer top level competitors to rock the boat.

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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by ronk »

Norsider wrote:So the head honchos think that the way to make the Irish team better is to make sure that the second string players within the national team get more game time so that they improve as players and push the incumbent in the jersey onto better performances, dare I say it, like sexton and rog?

As an ambition i think this actually makes sense. However the way they're going about trying to achieve gos against the principal that underpins it, ie prevent pinar from playing at ulster as it will hold up marshals progress, rather than let pinar in and see if marshal lifts his game enough to live with him (I'm sure there are better examples than that). It gos without saying that you learn from your betters, do we want marshal and o'brien to lean their trade from the likes of pinar and rocky or from playing mediocre opposition in the league week in week out? Which scenario will make them better players?

As a plan to deliver quality this plan fails as it removes regular access to the best players In the world from a developing player. It is also dangerous.

Imagine for a minute it's in place now. Come the six nations we loose Healy and Ross to the national set up, we don't have heinke or White as munster and ulster are in greater need at prop position. We're then left with Hagan, no harm there, plus an other, plus two green acadamie props with no game time under their belt (remember messers Healy and Ross holding up their progress.....) on the bench. It would be great to think that every Irish teen ager is ready for pro 12 rugby, can't say I believe they are.

So even looking at props alone this succession plan does not work, and let's face it that's where it's aimed.

Now as were told the irfu has been around for 130 years, so let's look at a different way to improve a representative team performance. 10 years ago the words Dublin and hurling went all that often connected, without laughter. Then you started seeing kids all over Dublin walking around with hurls on a sat morning, and they stuck at it, rebuilding from the bottom up, now Dublin are performing a world away from where they were ten years ago, not yet playing in September but give them another five years and they might be. The irfu want an instant fix to a problem than cannot be fixed in an instant - they want their semi final and come he'll or high water they'll get it, only problem is they seem to think world class players can be created in 4 years. An exceptional talent can be turned into a world class player in four years, an average player cannot.

Maybe the compromise would be to identify the real talent in the academies or in the U20 squad and plan for their progress, create a plan whereby they are given as much game time as possible, be it within Ireland or outside it- but hey shur that would be loads of hard work, why not just blame johny foreigner for mucking up the results of the senior team, that'd be far easier now wouldn't it........
They're aiming for flexibility. Hence one of the reasons they haven't explained how some of it will work. There are some good ideas there in terms of trying to pressurise provinces into developing positions, I just think it's flawed.

Going back to the prop thing is interesting. When Afoa's contract runs out will Munster be allowed sign a tighthead (because they'll have gone a year without one, in theory) or will Leinster. It doesn't really help develop props if we sign one when we otherwise mightn't have.

One of the funny things if that in terms of succession planning we could quite possibly manage without NIQs altogether (project players aside). Our NIQs are van der Merwe, Strauss, White, Sykes, Berquist and Nacewa. The project players aren't subject to this ruling (the IRFU couldn't be that stupid). McGrath is developing well and should be a perfectly acceptable backup in 2/3 years. Also, he's a big loosehead, that's something you see often in France and it's an idea that can be very productive in scrummaging terms. He can cover tighthead. White is temporary, we'll manage with Hagan and Ross. Sykes is a project. Berquist was a short term issue. Nacewa will be a loss, but we have the ability to manage.

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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by elfan »

Maybe been suggested already but I propose reps from olsc get together with counterparts from other provinces and threaten a boycott of buying international tickets until the proposals are reconsidered. I'm sure there would be wide support. What do people think? maybe too soon for this?
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Re: Change to NIQs

Post by Mauler »

It was interesting watching the Ulster v Munster match on RTE last night. Donal Leinhan seemed to share the views of most of the posters on here that it would not be a good thing for Munster / Leinster / Ulster. However, Frankie Sheehan seemed far more positive. Even going so far as to suggest that it would boost the earnings of Tight Head Props who are Irish Qualified. I wonder if he might have a vested interest in saying this?!?!?!
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