Change to NIQs

[Doc]

There is zero chance of of this falling foul of EU law.

Discrimination happens all the time in all businesses and can be perfectly legitimate - e.g. a movie director hiring a person for a particular role may want a tall black male, that doesn't mean I can sue them for not hiring me.

The provinces are part of the IRFU, whose mandate is running the game here, including developing players for the national team. They're perfectly within their rights not to employ whatever limited number of NIQ players they want.

[QBer]

merely giving inadequately prepared players game time wouldn't have improved the situation at all.

There is a presumption that giving IQs more gametime, by not having NIQs in certain positions, will improve them in most if not all cases. This is inconsistent with the Player Management Programme which reduces the number of games which Irish internationals play. The IRFU are ostensibly operating 2 contradicting policies are they not?

[Hippo]

There is zero chance of of this falling foul of EU law.

Discrimination happens all the time in all businesses and can be perfectly legitimate - e.g. a movie director hiring a person for a particular role may want a tall black male, that doesn't mean I can sue them for not hiring me.

This is an entirely separate argument, about something else.

[Doc]

There is zero chance of of this falling foul of EU law.

Discrimination happens all the time in all businesses and can be perfectly legitimate - e.g. a movie director hiring a person for a particular role may want a tall black male, that doesn't mean I can sue them for not hiring me.

This is an entirely separate argument, about something else.

Its not really. The IRFU is quite entitled to require their playing employees to be Irish, and there would be no more chance of a successful lawsuit than there would be someone taking us to task because you have to be an Irish citizen to be president.

[Hippo]

The requirement that the President be an Irish citizen is a Constitutional one, it has nothing to do with discriminatory employment practices.

[CiaranIrl]

You can be absolutely certain that Eddie Wigglesworth & Philip Browne were absolutely certain that they were legally safe before they made this decision. We're hardly the only geniuses to have thought this up.

[Donny B.]

You can be absolutely certain that Eddie Wigglesworth & Philip Browne were absolutely certain that they were legally safe before they made this decision. We're hardly the only geniuses to have thought this up.

Are you sure? The same pair of clowns were probably equally 'certain' that Irish rugby fans would pay €100 for international matches.

[cormac]

You can be absolutely certain that Eddie Wigglesworth & Philip Browne were absolutely certain that they were legally safe before they made this decision. We're hardly the only geniuses to have thought this up.

Under the Bosman case it was deemed illegal to place limits on numbers of EU nationals in football squads. Why do you think this doesn't apply to rugby? The provinces are highly unlikely to take a case but the provision is still contrary to EU law and would have to be withdrawn or amended to stipulate non-EU/Kolpak citizens were it ever to be challenged.

[Doc]

You can be absolutely certain that Eddie Wigglesworth & Philip Browne were absolutely certain that they were legally safe before they made this decision. We're hardly the only geniuses to have thought this up.

Under the Bosman case it was deemed illegal to place limits on numbers of EU nationals in football squads. Why do you think this doesn't apply to rugby? The provinces are highly unlikely to take a case but the provision is still contrary to EU law and would have to be withdrawn or amended to stipulate non-EU/Kolpak citizens were it ever to be challenged.

It is not that it doesn't apply to rugby - it is that it doesn't apply here, because the provincial teams are not separate commercial entities from the union. In the same way the union is perfectly entitled to run a professional national team with no NIQ players on it, it is allowed do the same (or some diluted version as it does) at provincial level. If the provinces were completely separate private entities, it would be different - although practically speaking as long as the union is subsidising the teams, then it can choose how it goes about that.

[[Jackass]]

This will affect Leinster the worst imo, as we have the most to lose, and I can see our hands being tied that if we want to nail down a slot of urgent requirement (like tighthead or lock) we'll have to give away an awful lot to secure it. You can get a much higher price from a rich man, and I don't know anyone who likes to haggle more than a pikey.

In reality, in the medium term, we only need tight-head (which there's no way we'll get, as punishment for producing Hagan), lock (which we should get one spot, but imo we may need two. At least one utter world class lock, a "Howlett" signing of a lock, like feckin Mattfield or someone!) and a right winger (we need to keep Nacewa, but probably wont get this as punishment for producing Rob Kearney, Fitzgerald, Dave Kearney, Carr, Conway to name a few in recent years, or as punishment we'll be required to "compensate" each of our rival provinces with ample quality so they wont need this spot)...

Basically, we bring just about everything to the market, and to get any concessions, we're going to have to pay big.

Leinster A might as well start playing in Thomond now.

[munster#1]

This will affect Leinster the worst imo, as we have the most to lose, and I can see our hands being tied that if we want to nail down a slot of urgent requirement (like tighthead or lock) we'll have to give away an awful lot to secure it. You can get a much higher price from a rich man, and I don't know anyone who likes to haggle more than a pikey.

In reality, in the medium term, we only need tight-head (which there's no way we'll get, as punishment for producing Hagan), lock (which we should get one spot, but imo we may need two. At least one utter world class lock, a "Howlett" signing of a lock, like feckin Mattfield or someone!) and a right winger (we need to keep Nacewa, but probably wont get this as punishment for producing Rob Kearney, Fitzgerald, Dave Kearney, Carr, Conway to name a few in recent years, or as punishment we'll be required to "compensate" each of our rival provinces with ample quality so they wont need this spot)...

Basically, we bring just about everything to the market, and to get any concessions, we're going to have to pay big.

Leinster A might as well start playing in Thomond now.

You have a very myopic view of things. As it stands, necewa is going to be the reason munster will not be able go re-sign the greatest niq to play for a province. IIRC necewa is here till 2014? If that is not enough time for at least 1 of your listed players to step up, then the coaching setup has failed.

Imo munster are in a good position everywhere bar prop. We have put together a scrum that has been a wepon in most games this season. This is gone next season, as afoa will have the t/h spot.

If anything munster will lose out the most in the short term, we will more than likely lose dave foley and/or nagle with no chance of getting a th in return, unless wee managed to tempt ross back home, which is unlikely.

The benifit of this, is the provinces are now forced to put time into homegrown talent, where the haven't, and will be forced to look harder for the best project players.

[Big-alster]

This will affect Leinster the worst imo, as we have the most to lose, and I can see our hands being tied that if we want to nail down a slot of urgent requirement (like tighthead or lock) we'll have to give away an awful lot to secure it. You can get a much higher price from a rich man, and I don't know anyone who likes to haggle more than a pikey.

In reality, in the medium term, we only need tight-head (which there's no way we'll get, as punishment for producing Hagan), lock (which we should get one spot, but imo we may need two. At least one utter world class lock, a "Howlett" signing of a lock, like feckin Mattfield or someone!) and a right winger (we need to keep Nacewa, but probably wont get this as punishment for producing Rob Kearney, Fitzgerald, Dave Kearney, Carr, Conway to name a few in recent years, or as punishment we'll be required to "compensate" each of our rival provinces with ample quality so they wont need this spot)...

Basically, we bring just about everything to the market, and to get any concessions, we're going to have to pay big.

Leinster A might as well start playing in Thomond now.

You have a very myopic view of things. As it stands, necewa is going to be the reason munster will not be able go re-sign the greatest niq to play for a province. IIRC necewa is here till 2014? If that is not enough time for at least 1 of your listed players to step up, then the coaching setup has failed.

Ruan Pienaar has never played a game for Munster. Its kind of you for calling him the greatest niq signing to play for a province though.

[Hippo]

I'm assuming that the IRFU has introduced these rules safe in the knowledge that any NIQs are realistically going to be from the Southern Hemisphere and therefore beyond the reach of EU law, because I don't think they'd withstand a challenge in Luxembourg.

It's been suggested here that a failure to produce quality Irish players subsequent to the introduction of the rules would represent a failure on the part of the coaching set-up. That would possibly be true, but it's also arguable that such a failure could also represent the absence of enough raw material, which would be nothing to do with the coaches. Either way, the provinces are going to be the poorer for this. The national team may or may not benefit.

[crumlinbob]

Is this the end for Connacht? The other three teams will be looking for Irish qualified players so the first place to look is Connacht. Duffy, O'Connor, Muldoon, McCarthy etc. are all handy players with a lot of experience. The fact they have not moved to the 'bigger' teams yet may be bacause they were not needed as foreign players filled the gaps. Now these players will be tempted to move to Munster / Linster / Ulster which will kill any chance of Connacht ever being competitive again. I really feel this is an attempt to even up the talent available to each team. Eventually this will benefit Ulster at the expense of Leinster and possibly Munster as the 'blazers' decide who plays where. With all our teams becoming uncompetitive in the Heineken Cup how long before the French or English teams persuade our brightest talents to go play for a winning side. This will be the death of Irish succcess in the Heineken Cup which is the future if the game. Browne talks about World Cups as though they are the be all and end all. They aint. The world cup is a distraction every four years from the real thing, the Heineken Cup, Pro 12 and 6 Nations. Are we to sacrifice everything for the bloody world cup?

[ceemec]

It's not the older lads that people will be looking at. Munster will be all over the likes of Griffin and TOH when they near the end of their contracts. If Michael Kearney does well, Leinster will try to tempt him back home. With Connacht's great work at underage level, they'll become the first thing the other provinces look at when it comes to plugging a gap in their squads.

[munster#1]

It's not the older lads that people will be looking at. Munster will be all over the likes of Griffin and TOH when they near the end of their contracts. If Michael Kearney does well, Leinster will try to tempt him back home. With Connacht's great work at underage level, they'll become the first thing the other provinces look at when it comes to plugging a gap in their squads.

Isn't developing players connacht's purpose? It was announced a few months ago that connacht will be used as a tool for the other 3 provinces. This is probably the sole reason why connacht (who run at a loss, which is a cost to the irfu) are still playing pro rugby.

[munster#1]

I'm assuming that the IRFU has introduced these rules safe in the knowledge that any NIQs are realistically going to be from the Southern Hemisphere and therefore beyond the reach of EU law, because I don't think they'd withstand a challenge in Luxembourg.

It's been suggested here that a failure to produce quality Irish players subsequent to the introduction of the rules would represent a failure on the part of the coaching set-up. That would possibly be true, but it's also arguable that such a failure could also represent the absence of enough raw material, which would be nothing to do with the coaches. Either way, the provinces are going to be the poorer for this. The national team may or may not benefit.

I sugested that if leinster fail to produce a replacement for isa, out of carr(was a great try scorer with a poor team), conway(one of the most promising underage players to play for ireland), d kearney( tipped by many as a hc winger already), mcfadden(has been capped on the wing) etc. then the coaching team will have failed.

Leinster fans have said many times how great leinster is at producing back 3 players, so within 2 yrs, if leinster haven't found a hc standard replacement i will be shocked

[Cianostays]

It's not the older lads that people will be looking at. Munster will be all over the likes of Griffin and TOH when they near the end of their contracts. If Michael Kearney does well, Leinster will try to tempt him back home. With Connacht's great work at underage level, they'll become the first thing the other provinces look at when it comes to plugging a gap in their squads.

Isn't developing players connacht's purpose? It was announced a few months ago that connacht will be used as a tool for the other 3 provinces. This is probably the sole reason why connacht (who run at a loss, which is a cost to the irfu) are still playing pro rugby.

That can't be right

Why would someone like John Muldoon stay at Connacht if their only purpose is to be a feeder province? It will be a disaster for Connacht if the other 3 provinces start raiding their native players and musn't happen.

[ronk]

This will affect Leinster the worst imo, as we have the most to lose, and I can see our hands being tied that if we want to nail down a slot of urgent requirement (like tighthead or lock) we'll have to give away an awful lot to secure it. You can get a much higher price from a rich man, and I don't know anyone who likes to haggle more than a pikey.

In reality, in the medium term, we only need tight-head (which there's no way we'll get, as punishment for producing Hagan), lock (which we should get one spot, but imo we may need two. At least one utter world class lock, a "Howlett" signing of a lock, like feckin Mattfield or someone!) and a right winger (we need to keep Nacewa, but probably wont get this as punishment for producing Rob Kearney, Fitzgerald, Dave Kearney, Carr, Conway to name a few in recent years, or as punishment we'll be required to "compensate" each of our rival provinces with ample quality so they wont need this spot)...

Basically, we bring just about everything to the market, and to get any concessions, we're going to have to pay big.

Leinster A might as well start playing in Thomond now.

You have a very myopic view of things. As it stands, necewa is going to be the reason munster will not be able go re-sign the greatest niq to play for a province. IIRC necewa is here till 2014? If that is not enough time for at least 1 of your listed players to step up, then the coaching setup has failed.

Imo munster are in a good position everywhere bar prop. We have put together a scrum that has been a wepon in most games this season. This is gone next season, as afoa will have the t/h spot.

If anything munster will lose out the most in the short term, we will more than likely lose dave foley and/or nagle with no chance of getting a th in return, unless wee managed to tempt ross back home, which is unlikely.

The benifit of this, is the provinces are now forced to put time into homegrown talent, where the haven't, and will be forced to look harder for the best project players.

The rules come in the season after next, if Howlett continues beyond that he'll be 35 early in his contract and Nacewa can be counted in another position so Howlett would still be able to get another position. Botha signed a two year contract, so he's around next season anyway, but he may not be allowed extend.

[Hippo]

I'm assuming that the IRFU has introduced these rules safe in the knowledge that any NIQs are realistically going to be from the Southern Hemisphere and therefore beyond the reach of EU law, because I don't think they'd withstand a challenge in Luxembourg.

It's been suggested here that a failure to produce quality Irish players subsequent to the introduction of the rules would represent a failure on the part of the coaching set-up. That would possibly be true, but it's also arguable that such a failure could also represent the absence of enough raw material, which would be nothing to do with the coaches. Either way, the provinces are going to be the poorer for this. The national team may or may not benefit.

I sugested that if leinster fail to produce a replacement for isa, out of carr(was a great try scorer with a poor team), conway(one of the most promising underage players to play for ireland), d kearney( tipped by many as a hc winger already), mcfadden(has been capped on the wing) etc. then the coaching team will have failed.

Leinster fans have said many times how great leinster is at producing back 3 players, so within 2 yrs, if leinster haven't found a hc standard replacement i will be shocked

My point was a general one. We'll see how it works in the tight five.