Change to NIQs

[cormac]

It was interesting watching the Ulster v Munster match on RTE last night. Donal Leinhan seemed to share the views of most of the posters on here that it would not be a good thing for Munster / Leinster / Ulster. However, Frankie Sheehan seemed far more positive. Even going so far as to suggest that it would boost the earnings of Tight Head Props who are Irish Qualified. I wonder if he might have a vested interest in saying this?!?!?!

I think Frankie should list all his clients before appearing as a pundit.

[crumlinbob]

Maybe been suggested already but I propose reps from olsc get together with counterparts from other provinces and threaten a boycott of buying international tickets until the proposals are reconsidered. I'm sure there would be wide support. What do people think? maybe too soon for this?

Damn good idea. I really believe these new rules will be the death of the provinces competing at Heineken Cup level. Its time we did something to show our disapproval.

[West Brit]

It's definitely a curate's egg of an idea.

[Dave Cahill]

It was interesting watching the Ulster v Munster match on RTE last night. Donal Leinhan seemed to share the views of most of the posters on here that it would not be a good thing for Munster / Leinster / Ulster. However, Frankie Sheehan seemed far more positive. Even going so far as to suggest that it would boost the earnings of Tight Head Props who are Irish Qualified. I wonder if he might have a vested interest in saying this?!?!?!

Well, for example, last night, Stephen Archer is a client of his. Indeed, in the pre match build up he only mentioned his clients.

[sheepshagger]

It was interesting watching the Ulster v Munster match on RTE last night. Donal Leinhan seemed to share the views of most of the posters on here that it would not be a good thing for Munster / Leinster / Ulster. However, Frankie Sheehan seemed far more positive. Even going so far as to suggest that it would boost the earnings of Tight Head Props who are Irish Qualified. I wonder if he might have a vested interest in saying this?!?!?!

I think Frankie should list all his clients before appearing as a pundit.

Agreed, normal for any 'pundit' on the likes of CNBC or Bloomberg TV to list any vested /potential conflicts of interests on screen so at least people know.

[mikerob]

BBC NI are also guilty of using someone with a conflict of interest... Ryan Constable who co-commentates is the owner of http://www.cornerflag.net and is the agent to most of the Ulster team as well as a number of players from other provinces as well.

[johng]

Maybe been suggested already but I propose reps from olsc get together with counterparts from other provinces and threaten a boycott of buying international tickets until the proposals are reconsidered. I'm sure there would be wide support. What do people think? maybe too soon for this?

Damn good idea. I really believe these new rules will be the death of the provinces competing at Heineken Cup level. Its time we did something to show our disapproval.

Feck all tickets go out through Leinster. There is an STH lottery but it's not many. Most go out through clubs. Leftovers go through IRSC, and if they REALLY don't sell, there is a public sale.

I can see a public sale for Italy tickets, and probably Scotland ones too. Wales will be like gold dust after the WC QF.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

BBC NI are also guilty of using someone with a conflict of interest... Ryan Constable who co-commentates is the owner of http://www.cornerflag.net and is the agent to most of the Ulster team as well as a number of players from other provinces as well.

I'm often astonished at how little former players actually know about the game and Constable is in that bracket, he's absolutely terrible. Same goes for Tyrone Howe. You can tell they're bluffing their way through the rules at times and when they haven't got a rashers what's going on they often have to resort to "it's a tough call for the referee" without offering any opinion themselves. Contable and Jim Neilly have a penchant for praising play that is actually terrible as well. At one stage yesterday Ulster created an overlap from two dreadful passes that were behind one player and at the feet of another but because they still kept the ball they were praised to the hilt. Really annoys me that these people get jobs.

Anyway, as for the NIQs, it's a shocking idea. The IRFU just seem completely ignorant to the fact that a lot of NIQs have aided our development immensely. Personally I think they need a big rethink on how the slots are allocated for that very reason. I know this would never fly with the provinces but I think that each case should be taken on it's merit and that the strict quota system should be abolished. It's worked well so far but going forward I think it should be tweaked. For example I'm not sure Leinster will need to fill their full quota of players over the next year or two in which case one or two of the NIQ players may actually be in the way of Irish players. Conversely, if Munster were to need more than their current quota then I'd have no problem with them being allowed more NIQs than us e.g if signing two centres helped Keatley and the back three develop and made them more successful then I think it should be sanctioned. Obviously it would have to be within reason and the contract length would have to take the young talent into account but I think it's doable and we'd all benefit in the long term.

Barring that I'd just keep the status quo with the proviso that project players are monitored more carefully e.g Borlase. What's the point of him taking up a slot that could be better used by someone else? The funds for another player may not be there but regardless I don't think he should take up one a project player spot when he's never going to fulfill it.

EDIT: I think the system I proposed could actually lead to a lot of the horse trading that the IRFU seem to desire i.e. If Munster were to say that they really need two NIQ centres then the reply may be that they can have them if Munster send one of their second rows to Leinster.

[FourMasters]

The more I think about this the more I wonder if the entire raison d'etre behind the changes is to force the increase of player movement between Leinster, Munster and Ulster.

For provincial coaches there is no advantage and considerable disadvantage from losing a player to one of their two rivals on this island. If a player goes to Connacht and improves signficantly then they simply move back to their native province, who get the benefit of someone used to their systems but who has had all the mistakes that come with learning their trade taken at the expense of Connact.

In contrast, if a player goes from Leinster to Munster/Ulster and becomes first choice, they are far less likely to return in their peak years. For the coach there is the double whammy of the strengthening of his rival province while he looks as if he hadn't spotted talent under his nose. It's actually in the coach's interest to hold onto promising players, keeping them in the B&I cup with the odd bench in the Rabo. We happen to know that in one recent case, Felix Jones, the then Leinster coach tried his hardest to dissuade the player from moving to Munster.

Perhaps the IRFU are aware of other cases where a player has thought of moving amongst the three provinces and have been leant on by their provincial management. Perhaps this whole business is about forcing a change of attitude amongst the branch blazers.

All supposition on my part of course.

[ellandleinster]

haven't read full thread so apologies if this has been mentioned before but I recall NZ making a complaint a while back about the amount of players going to Ireland (along the lines of smaller unions should not poach from each other) so the impetus behind this may not be all home grown. In any event I think it has merit as a policy and like all policies is reversable if not working. Not sure why such opprobrium is now being heaped on the IRFU with calls for Browne's head when the irreversible f%~k up that is the Aviva seem to have gone unnoticed.

[ronk]

haven't read full thread so apologies if this has been mentioned before but I recall NZ making a complaint a while back about the amount of players going to Ireland (along the lines of smaller unions should not poach from each other) so the impetus behind this may not be all home grown. In any event I think it has merit as a policy and like all policies is reversable if not working. Not sure why such opprobrium is now being heaped on the IRFU with calls for Browne's head when the irreversible f%~k up that is the Aviva seem to have gone unnoticed.

How do you reverse the damage? We're getting rid of every NIQ in Ireland and hoping to bring in ones who'll do a good job when we can't offer them stability.

In consecutive seasons Ulster have pulled off huge coups with signings. Pienaar was a rare player, Afoa, a world cup winning tighthead at the top of his game. They've been told their contracts won't be renewed, those sorts of signings won't happen again. Afoa arrived a month ago, he played a few games in advance of his official start date to help out the team, but his start was a month ago. Now he's being told that no matter how hard he tries or how well he settles, he'll be out when his contract ends and will only get that long because they don't want to pay him off. I'm sure he's on big money, I'm also certain that he had other big money offers too.

Some signings are better than others, it's taken years to build the squad and integrate them into the fabric of the team. It's all over. The guys who stay behind and help out with the coaching team (Whitaker, Williams), that'll be almost entirely over too.

The IRFU's own maths doesn't even add up entirely. They're still talking about first XVs. They're thinking of props in terms of it being 5 NIQ props covering 6 places (Ulster not having a NIQ loosehead). It's 5 NIQ props out of 12 (especially when we're talking about van der Merwe and White). Afoa is the only NIQ prop out of McAllister, Fitzpatrick, Court, Mackin. If van der Merwe has to leave Leinster, does that mean more gametime for McGrath, or does it mean a big pay rise (and less game time) for Brett Wilkinson?

What happens if Joe Schmidt decides to give the IRFU a taste of their own medicine and rebuff contract negotiations? How do you undo that damage? The IRFU have said that they'll take whatever risks to the provinces for the sake of speeding up development of a tighthead a backup loosehead (which is on track anyway) and some more options in the centre for the next world cup --- because that's what's at stake. But one of the (often unspoken) purposes of the NIQs is keeping the provinces competitive so that the star players will take less money than they could get elsewhere to be successful with Ireland AND their province. If Keith Earls (say) gets frustrated losing big Munster games because his pack is getting smashed regularly, those French and English clubs start looking like more fun. Brian O'Driscoll might have left Leinster, if he hadn't believed he could have been part of something. He wouldn't be the player he is if he settled for losing.

[Sauvignon Blank]

What happens if Joe Schmidt decides to give the IRFU a taste of their own medicine and rebuff contract negotiations? How do you undo that damage? The IRFU have said that they'll take whatever risks to the provinces for the sake of speeding up development of a tighthead a backup loosehead (which is on track anyway) and some more options in the centre for the next world cup --- because that's what's at stake.

Joe was quite candid in last nights pre match interview on TG4 about the IRFU edict. He's clearly unhappy with it and is of the opinion it needs to be changed/revisited. A coach of his calibre aint going to stick around here if this nonsense is pushed through thats for sure.

The more I think about this the more it sends shivers down my spine, this will absolutely kill Leinster Rugby.

The OLSC need to get active here, not sure who you are but Mick Dawson needs to listen to our grievance over this, the branches need to stand up and debate this fully over the coming months.

Failing that, boycott Ireland games and hit the goons where it hurts(im fully aware it hits us too) because this will harm the progress Leinster has made in the last few years.

FFS, I'm hearing Isa's contract won't even be renewed

[mikey]

FFS, I'm hearing Isa's contract won't even be renewed

Is this for real? - what the hell are the IRFU trying to achieve? - as other posters have said, the foreign players have made a huge impact on Irish Rugby, and the successes that the Provinces have enjoyed - this new plan seems to be a sure fire way to make us uncompetitive in the HC, and its a very danegrous game to play when we could well loose our best players who want to play in the top flight, rather than slog it out in the rugby ghetto that Irish Rugby will become.

I dont see what is wrong with the system as it stands - and a system that rewards one of Leinsters most outstanding players of the past 10 years, Isa, with no new contract is b*%&!x....

[rooster]

FFS, I'm hearing Isa's contract won't even be renewed

Is this for real? - what the hell are the IRFU trying to achieve? - as other posters have said, the foreign players have made a huge impact on Irish Rugby, and the successes that the Provinces have enjoyed - this new plan seems to be a sure fire way to make us uncompetitive in the HC, and its a very danegrous game to play when we could well loose our best players who want to play in the top flight, rather than slog it out in the rugby ghetto that Irish Rugby will become.

I dont see what is wrong with the system as it stands - and a system that rewards one of Leinsters most outstanding players of the past 10 years, Isa, with no new contract is b*%&!x....

It was in a press article by Wigglesworth that Nacewa , Afoa and Botha would not be allowed to extend their contracts.
If it hadn't been for him you lot were in severe problems last night just as Ulster would have been in severe problems against Munster on Friday.
Bloody ridiculous that players of Isa's and previous Dr Phil won't be allowed to stay here after an initial contract, must be heading for the stage of supporters trying some action to save our foreign players who have given so much to the provinces over the years, yes there have been a few duds all round but there are also the real legends who do so much for the game here and pass on a serious amount of knowledge and experience to young local players, now we will be left with 1 or 2 year mercenaries, for want of a better term, in to top up their retirement plans.
A few banners for the 6 nations matches anyone ?

[Scott]

.
A few banners for the 6 nations matches anyone ?

Boycott

[ronk]

FFS, I'm hearing Isa's contract won't even be renewed

Is this for real? - what the hell are the IRFU trying to achieve? - as other posters have said, the foreign players have made a huge impact on Irish Rugby, and the successes that the Provinces have enjoyed - this new plan seems to be a sure fire way to make us uncompetitive in the HC, and its a very danegrous game to play when we could well loose our best players who want to play in the top flight, rather than slog it out in the rugby ghetto that Irish Rugby will become.

I dont see what is wrong with the system as it stands - and a system that rewards one of Leinsters most outstanding players of the past 10 years, Isa, with no new contract is b*%&!x....

The IRFU have been very simple about it. They've introduced this new rule because they're willing to sacrifice provincial success (if necessary) and they'll pay the price for that knowing that they might receive less income to speed up the development of young players in key positions.

In that sense, it's fair. In the sense that it might actually weaken the Irish team and support for Irish rugby there could have been other ways. This is only one way to try and ensure 2 starting players in each position across the provinces. The provincial coaches were never going to be overly happy about this restriction, but it would have been a lot easier for them if they'd been able to clarify certain matters and possibly seek minor concessions in areas that won't change the major thrust of the changes.

At the last World Cup we got out of jail because Ross came in as an outsider to the IRFU development path. It doesn't seem to matter that the problem was IRFU development as much as anything else. He would not have been given a chance if he'd stayed at Quins, of this I'm certain. There are young props in Ireland who should be getting more gametime. i.e. Archer, Hagan, McGrath, McAllister and Macklin. Fitzpatrick & Hurley should probably be included as older props also needing development. The main goal for the IRFU is to force provincial coaches to fast track the development of these players. They went against their own principles very recently by persuading Hayes to keep playing to get Munster through the group stages of the Heineken Cup. Botha was having injury worries and Archer's development suddenly looked unimportant. It was sensible as Munster needed to qualify for the knockout stages of the HC and it mightn't help Archer to have him beaten up that comprehensively.

They're really having to bite the bullet now for their poor planning. The IRFU have hinted that they're willing to cut Munster more slack at prop because of the Buckley situation . He was Munster's (and Ireland's) attempt at a solution and it didn't work out. Some of us might view that as one more reason to be cautious about IRFU development being sometimes fallible. Over the last 10 years this has been an approach the IRFU have often shown faith in: identify a player in a problem area and invest every possible resource in them to get them to the point where they're tolerably good.

[simonokeeffe]

In terms of Frankie Sheahan picking out positives, the way his punditry is you could hit him in the face with a 20lb fish and he'd try to pick out the positives

We're going to struggle for props at international level until national sides get 2 sub props (you can't say Court is our second best loosehead), double sided props are dying out and we haven't produced any in a longtime.

Under new rules could we say have Isa starting at 14, Rob at 15, but if D Kearney is our back 3 sub can we make a tactical substitution (50 mins in say) and put DK at 14 and Isa 15? Am assuming injury would be allowed, but if tactical would Joe get angry texts from Wrigglesworth?

How will it help player development to play young guys out of position in big games when there's better tactical arrangements that could be made eg Carr, Conway much better at wing than fullback, Ruddock much better at 6. Seems unfair to expect emerging players to have to cover more positions

For end of season and/or near end of coach/player contract or a big game whats to stop provinces playing the NIQs out of position?

[Ruckedtobits]

According to various News reports and On the Ball interviews,the IRFU Contracts Review Group and Management Committees have not thought out the consequences of their proposal and they refused to even let it be considered by the Provincial Committees before it was voted on by the full IRFU Committee, a number of whom indicated that they did not understand the consequences of the proposal.

If this is reality, those responsible for the operation of the IRFU should take a good look at themselves in the mirror and wonder how the tail is being allowed to wag the dog - after 130 years of experience.

There are a number of aspects in which this policy is flawed in conception and proposed execution. Some of these can be listed as follows:

> Game time is not the only constituent in preparing a player to play at the top level. If it were, the international caps of O'Driscoll, Earls, Fitzgerald, Murray, Healy and others would have been delayed by years.
> Playing an Irish-qualified player on a Provincial Team is no guarantee that the National Coach will select him. The most obvious example in the recent past was the shameful selection policy at Tight-head prop in the 4 Autumn 2010 internationals - less than 10 months before RWC 2011. Mike Ross was not selected for any of those games and yet Hayes and Buckley both were extremely poor - check the match reports.
> The current distribution of NIQ players is almost exactly what the IRFU are now calling for, with the exception of tight-head prop.
15. Nasewa
14. Howlett 13. Chalmers 12. Mafi 11. Danielli
10. Berquist 9. Pienaar
1. HVdM 2. Strauss 3. Botha (Afoa)
4. Mueller 5. Sykes
6. Wanneberg 7. Ofisa 8. Diack (just qualified for Ireland by residency).

However, this composition suits the various Provinces and replicates the situation that pertained in 2008-10 when an almost entirely different set of NIQ players were scattered throughout the Provinces by market forces and resulted in comprising almost an entire team:

15. Warwick
14. Howlett 13. Tipoki 12. Berne 11. Nagusa
10. Contepomi 9. Whitaker
1. Pucharello 2. Strauss 3. Wright
4 Hines 5. Del Favo
6. Elsom 7. Ofisa 8 Williams (N)

> Anybody with a good knowledge of world rugby will recognise that the position of THP is the highest tariff / lowest supply and highest salary position in the game. Ireland has essentially had only one Tight-head prop for the past 13 seasons (check out who else has been capped in that position during Hayes' phenomenal career - Corrigan, Court, Buckley since 1999-2000 Season). We now have Ross, McAlister Hagan, Buckley, Archer (in that order in my view). We also have Court and McGrath two loose heads who have played games for their Provinces at THP. However, did Kidney include either Hagan or McAlister in his RWC 2011 Squad, the longest squad session in the four-year cycle, where they could have worked against the current Irish front-row and with Greg Feek. No he didn't. He included Buckley who had already signed for Sale and was clearly overtaken by Ross despite every selection assistence Kidney provided over the past two seasons.

> If the Contract Review Group want to effect change, the first place to look is with the attitude of the Irish Coach in regard to any player that comes from outside Munster. Both McAlister and Hagan should be included in every Irish Squad between now and the New Zealand Tour and their respective Provincial Coaches should be asked to give them 40 minutes of Heineken Cup time in rounds 5 & 6. This is the sort of action that a National Coach should take in terms of developing his future players.

> Finally, the point about the length of Hayes' career is not isolated. Perhaps the three positions with the greatest liklihood of difficulties for Ireland in the next 2/3 years are centre and second-row. The shortage of experienced international contenders in both positions has less to do with supply, than the longevity of their predecessors. BO'D & Darce and PO'D & Donncha have been possession so long that nobody else has got a look-in, except by injury. In the row this has meant Mick O'D but in the past 12 months should have been Tuohy and Toner. In the centre it has given Fergus McFadden a shout, but should also have included Darren Cave instead of Keith Earls who is solely a winger - and a good one. Once again there is reasonable evidence that DK uses Red-tinted glasses when it comes to assessment of potential at international level.

Leinster and Irish fans must recognise how foolhardy and dangerous this proposal is. At worst we risk
> Reducing the effectiveness of three Irish Provinces to non-competitive status in ERC;
> Allowing Irish players to drift to French and English Clubs in search of competitive teams and trophies;
> Ensuring that no top-class coach will ever again venture to Ireland because of the crazy IRFU rules.

Each of these risks is now real-time. This month last year Sexton, Heaslip and O'Brien were re-negotiating contracts with the IRFU. If this nonsense had been around at that time, we would have lost two of them. None of these players have 130 years to wait fro their next career. If the teams in Ireland are not good enough the answer will be a one-way ticket to wherever success beckons. They'll still be eligible to play for Ireland

[Norsider]

Wouldn't the easiest way for the IRFU to improve the pool of players available to the provinces (at the expense of the provinces be to just allow players who play outside Ireland get selected for the national side?

In the past we would have lost the likes of BOD etc to over seas contracts, but I wonder if , for example, McFadden had the chance now to sign for leicster or stay at Leinster what would he do. I think the provinces are strong enough now to make players stay at home without playing the 'you'll only get picked for Ireland if you stay card'

[mikey]

Is this for real? - what the hell are the IRFU trying to achieve? - as other posters have said, the foreign players have made a huge impact on Irish Rugby, and the successes that the Provinces have enjoyed - this new plan seems to be a sure fire way to make us uncompetitive in the HC, and its a very danegrous game to play when we could well loose our best players who want to play in the top flight, rather than slog it out in the rugby ghetto that Irish Rugby will become.

I dont see what is wrong with the system as it stands - and a system that rewards one of Leinsters most outstanding players of the past 10 years, Isa, with no new contract is b*%&!x....

The IRFU have been very simple about it. They've introduced this new rule because they're willing to sacrifice provincial success (if necessary) and they'll pay the price for that knowing that they might receive less income to speed up the development of young players in key positions.

In that sense, it's fair. In the sense that it might actually weaken the Irish team and support for Irish rugby there could have been other ways. This is only one way to try and ensure 2 starting players in each position across the provinces. The provincial coaches were never going to be overly happy about this restriction, but it would have been a lot easier for them if they'd been able to clarify certain matters and possibly seek minor concessions in areas that won't change the major thrust of the changes.

At the last World Cup we got out of jail because Ross came in as an outsider to the IRFU development path. It doesn't seem to matter that the problem was IRFU development as much as anything else. He would not have been given a chance if he'd stayed at Quins, of this I'm certain. There are young props in Ireland who should be getting more gametime. i.e. Archer, Hagan, McGrath, McAllister and Macklin. Fitzpatrick & Hurley should probably be included as older props also needing development. The main goal for the IRFU is to force provincial coaches to fast track the development of these players. They went against their own principles very recently by persuading Hayes to keep playing to get Munster through the group stages of the Heineken Cup. Botha was having injury worries and Archer's development suddenly looked unimportant. It was sensible as Munster needed to qualify for the knockout stages of the HC and it mightn't help Archer to have him beaten up that comprehensively.

They're really having to bite the bullet now for their poor planning. The IRFU have hinted that they're willing to cut Munster more slack at prop because of the Buckley situation . He was Munster's (and Ireland's) attempt at a solution and it didn't work out. Some of us might view that as one more reason to be cautious about IRFU development being sometimes fallible. Over the last 10 years this has been an approach the IRFU have often shown faith in: identify a player in a problem area and invest every possible resource in them to get them to the point where they're tolerably good.

I put Leinster above Ireland - I know others here dont agree with that, but its Leinster that I watch week in week out, and have my ST for - yes I want Ireland to do well and I understand the links from Province to Country, but this new plan to weaken the provinces is total horseshit.

Ill conceived to the point where it can only harm the game of Rugby in Ireland, just when we (Leinster) are enjoying a purple patch. Is this instiagted by those jealous of our success? We play on a European stage and this would seem to potentially put us in a position of not being able to truely compete at that level in future seasons - now that cannot be good for our game. I wonder, under European law, if it is even legal?

Have the Branch made any statements about these plan? - they must be up in arms about it, just at the point where our ST base is expanding and our 'brand' growing strongly, in the face of what is are pretty dire economic circumstances, the IRFU seem intent to screw us.

As a Leinster ST holder i'm appalled at this - but what can we do - the IRFU seem hell bent on destroying years of work to get my club to where it is now....