Change to NIQs

[Ruckedtobits]

Discussions (late night drinking) in Galway suggest that Leinster Branch did issue a Statement to Players and their Committee just before Christmas stating their strong disapproval of the NIQ Proposal and manner of its presentation by IRFU management Committee. However this was overtaken by the (unannounced and unscheduled) IRFU Press Conference, which was a surprise even to IRFU Committee members. Rumour has it that this was considered to mimic "Charlie's Politics" in the worse sense and was an attempt to ensure that matter was not re-opened at future IRFU meetings.

Some players have been briefed re impact of proposals and they are not happy bunnies.

This has not yet run its course and if IRFU Press Conference was intended to draw a veil over a decision made and finalised it actually did the opposite and ensured that the stiry would run and run with the three Provincial Coaches in Ulster Munster & Leinster being encouraged by their Committees to comment publicly about their misgivings.

The IRFU risk this turning into a re-run of the Ticket fiasco of last Season. The next week will see the first formal indication from the Leinster Clubs about take-up (and payment) for 6N tickets. If there is any lack of demand (even for Italy game) IRFU will have to start worrying about the wider climate of their stewardship of the game - Provincial and National

[mikey]

Discussions (late night drinking) in Galway suggest that Leinster Branch did issue a Statement to Players and their Committee just before Christmas stating their strong disapproval of the NIQ Proposal and manner of its presentation by IRFU management Committee. However this was overtaken by the (unannounced and unscheduled) IRFU Press Conference, which was a surprise even to IRFU Committee members. Rumour has it that this was considered to mimic "Charlie's Politics" in the worse sense and was an attempt to ensure that matter was not re-opened at future IRFU meetings.

Some players have been briefed re impact of proposals and they are not happy bunnies.

This has not yet run its course and if IRFU Press Conference was intended to draw a veil over a decision made and finalised it actually did the opposite and ensured that the stiry would run and run with the three Provincial Coaches in Ulster Munster & Leinster being encouraged by their Committees to comment publicly about their misgivings.

The IRFU risk this turning into a re-run of the Ticket fiasco of last Season. The next week will see the first formal indication from the Leinster Clubs about take-up (and payment) for 6N tickets. If there is any lack of demand (even for Italy game) IRFU will have to start worrying about the wider climate of their stewardship of the game - Provincial and National

If this is how the IRFU are going to treat Leinster you wont find me at another Ireland game.....

[Leinsterman]

The IRFU risk this turning into a re-run of the Ticket fiasco of last Season. The next week will see the first formal indication from the Leinster Clubs about take-up (and payment) for 6N tickets. If there is any lack of demand (even for Italy game) IRFU will have to start worrying about the wider climate of their stewardship of the game - Provincial and National

[/quote]


What? You have to be kidding me.
The main reason clubs may not be taking their already confirmed allocations is because they are afraid of the financial implications of being left with unsold tickets and the payment terms demanded by the IRFU this season.
Also, Wales, Italy and Scotland are not exactly the big draw when compared to England and Wales.
Price determines whether people will attend the international games and the 6N is still the biggest show in town.
If you think there will be a boycott of internationals because of this IRFU stance, I have to disagree. There's plenty more people willing to take the tickets of those who will decide not to attend.

[TerenureJim]

There's plenty more people willing to take the tickets of those who will decide not to attend.

Because so many took up the chance to go to the last Autumn Internationals held in 2010?

Something tells me that they are misjudging the popularity and accessability of provinces to the average rugby fan who was able to get tickets to croker due to availability of tickets leading to I think every game being over 70k if not over 75-78k and a good few sell outs. They then built a stadium with loads of corporate space but not much space to offer tickets to the average fan at a decent price (unlike Croker) just as the corporate money dried up, now they need the average fan again to take tickets and build atmosphere but I'm guess a lot of us would probably prefer to go see Leinster/Munster/Ulster/Connacht because well it's better value for money and usually a better atmosphere.

IRFU bites the hand that feeds it, first it was the clubs over unsold tickets now it's the provinces over being too successful and taking focus off the "national team" and here was me thinking the national team was supposed to be used to promote the game and get more people and money invested at all levels of the sport not just the elite 22.

[Dave Cahill]

Because so many took up the chance to go to the last Autumn Internationals held in 2010?

Massive difference between meaningless friendlies and the Six Nations.

[TerenureJim]

Because so many took up the chance to go to the last Autumn Internationals held in 2010?

Massive difference between meaningless friendlies and the Six Nations.

Point taken but quality wise would you prefer to watch games against Scotland/Italy or against NZ/SA?

[Dave Cahill]

Something tells me that they are misjudging the popularity and accessability of provinces to the average rugby fan who was able to get tickets to croker due to availability of tickets leading to I think every game being over 70k if not over 75-78k and a good few sell outs.

Agree entirely, but then i'm of the opinion that the IRFU don't really give a rats ass about those of us who are fans of our provincial sides - unless they need us to protect their revenue streams.

[Dave Cahill]

Because so many took up the chance to go to the last Autumn Internationals held in 2010?

Massive difference between meaningless friendlies and the Six Nations.

Point taken but quality wise would you prefer to watch games against Scotland/Italy or against NZ/SA?

I'd rather watch Leinster play Aironi than any of them to be honest. Oh you'll get a better class of team during the money games alright, but ultimately these games are the rugby equivalent of onanism - its just about the cash.

[ronk]

There's inevitably an element of club v country when it comes to tickets. The question must have been asked behind closed doors, whether all those season tickets, those big Heineken Cup matches and those 50k sellout Leinster-Munster games have done anything to soften demand for those expensive internationals.

The IRFU have done some really strong long term planning at times, they've made mistakes, but the provincial system has been a smart move by them. That doesn't mean they're right on this. We can be damn sure that some of the people behind this have been looking at the maths and have seen that a 10% increase in Irish team income with a 50% decrease in provincial income is a small net gain. If they have to choose between one and the other, they're coming down on the side of the Irish team in a big way. One Grand Slam is worth more than 4 Heineken Cups, that's the current mood. They don't think it will come to this, but Eddie Wigglesworth et al have their priorities.

I can live with a certain country over club situation, the IRFU still pay the bills, what worries me is just how badly this has been handled. I don't think I could have done it any worse even if I tried. Parts of it show signs of having been extensively considered, but much of it shows the opposite and this is deeply concerning. They've been thinking about how to stop provinces exploiting loopholes rather than worrying about problems they might cause or mechanisms to get it functioning as effectively as possible.

The provincial coaches weren't consulted but we can be damn sure that one coach was: Kidney. If he comes out and says that this is a bad, bad idea for the Irish rugby team, the idea is stone dead. The big changes to the NIQ system are there because the strategic development problems were down to Johnny Foreigner and had nothing to do with the coaching teams and the decisions they took.

[mikey]

There's inevitably an element of club v country when it comes to tickets. The question must have been asked behind closed doors, whether all those season tickets, those big Heineken Cup matches and those 50k sellout Leinster-Munster games have done anything to soften demand for those expensive internationals.

The IRFU have done some really strong long term planning at times, they've made mistakes, but the provincial system has been a smart move by them. That doesn't mean they're right on this. We can be damn sure that some of the people behind this have been looking at the maths and have seen that a 10% increase in Irish team income with a 50% decrease in provincial income is a small net gain. If they have to choose between one and the other, they're coming down on the side of the Irish team in a big way. One Grand Slam is worth more than 4 Heineken Cups, that's the current mood. They don't think it will come to this, but Eddie Wigglesworth et al have their priorities.

I can live with a certain country over club situation, the IRFU still pay the bills, what worries me is just how badly this has been handled. I don't think I could have done it any worse even if I tried. Parts of it show signs of having been extensively considered, but much of it shows the opposite and this is deeply concerning. They've been thinking about how to stop provinces exploiting loopholes rather than worrying about problems they might cause or mechanisms to get it functioning as effectively as possible.

The provincial coaches weren't consulted but we can be damn sure that one coach was: Kidney. If he comes out and says that this is a bad, bad idea for the Irish rugby team, the idea is stone dead. The big changes to the NIQ system are there because the strategic development problems were down to Johnny Foreigner and had nothing to do with the coaching teams and the decisions they took.

They really are in lala land if the IRFU think that one grand slam is worth more than 4 HC's - I think our victory in 2009 probably had a greater long term financial impact than the grand slam - but of course coming in the same year it is hard to separate the impact but I feel that the HC did far far more.

You did nail it with regards the blame on the failings of the natrional side being laid at the door of Johnny Foreigner - when the truth was that Ireland probably had one of the strongest pools of talent but this was coached out of them into utter mediocracy for the world cup.

Club verses country - club every time - and i'd have thought that the vast majortity of fans are just the same - a grand slam is nice of course, but HC victories with accompanying league success is what interests me. The by product of this for Ireland shoud be a stronger national side BECAUSE of the input of NIQ's not the other way round. Get the coacing and managment right at the top level rather than biting the hand that feeds.

As supporters who ultimately fund all this through tiket sales, what can we do about something that is so patentely wrong?

[QBer]

Gerry Thornley's article this morning is actually quite helpful. His comment "What a laugh" could be applied not only to the position-specific part of the new rules but to the entire.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/spo ... 37063.html

[Clermont]

It's not often that I agree with Gerry 100%, but I certainly do here.

One question for the IRFU, "WHEN the provinces become less successful due to the new rules, will more or less people go to watch Ireland play?"

[johng]

They really are in lala land if the IRFU think that one grand slam is worth more than 4 HC's - I think our victory in 2009 probably had a greater long term financial impact than the grand slam Based on? Your imagination I presume?

Club verses country - club every time - and i'd have thought that the vast majortity of fans are just the same

I would be surprised if even a majority of Leinster fans feel like that, never mind a majority of Irish people

[mikey]

They really are in lala land if the IRFU think that one grand slam is worth more than 4 HC's - I think our victory in 2009 probably had a greater long term financial impact than the grand slam Based on? Your imagination I presume?

Club verses country - club every time - and i'd have thought that the vast majortity of fans are just the same

I would be surprised if even a majority of Leinster fans feel like that, never mind a majority of Irish people

So, are you saying that you woud be happy to see cr@p rugby week in week out, with no domestic or european trophies for the chance of the odd grand slam ?, or that the odd grand slam would be more statisfying than anything that Leinster or any other province might achieve?

[simonokeeffe]

IRFU forgetting the small margins in matches that make them money eg take away Nacewa's try against Leicester and no home semi final which they made a few quid out of; depower Leinster specifically and less of the renting of Landsdowne for home quarters or semis, maybe not even pool games

Also re utility players, its good to have a single player like Nacewa or Warwick that can keep 3 or 4 established (international) players on their toes. We don't want players having no competition for their place at national and/or provincial level. Kearney so far ahead of most players in Ireland he needs overseas competition

[QBer]

Kearney so far ahead of most players in Ireland he needs overseas competition

It’s ironic in a competitive sport that the new NIQ policy is meant to improve up and coming Irish players by reducing the amount of competition they get from NIQs. Posters here have commented on the EU law possibilities but I’m not aware that the related competition law implications have been fully discussed.

Hope this isn’t off topic but IMO the IRFU have adopted a policy of interference in provincial selection policy in pursuit of a result which isn’t guaranteed to happen:-
1. The new NIQ rules are long term in that they operate over several seasons, being the duration of player contracts.
2. The player management programme is stated to operate medium term across a season but it affects shorter time slots such as bands of 10 to 12 games.
3. The recently introduced short term “Kidney special request” may mean that a province may have to play someone like Isa Nacewa at 14 in a particular game when you (might) want to play them at a better position such as 15.

Joe Schmidt in his TG4 interview after the Connacht game drew a distinction between gametime and player development, suggesting that maybe the IRFU should be focussing on the second rather than the first.

[ronk]

Club verses country - club every time - and i'd have thought that the vast majortity of fans are just the same - a grand slam is nice of course, but HC victories with accompanying league success is what interests me. The by product of this for Ireland shoud be a stronger national side BECAUSE of the input of NIQ's not the other way round. Get the coacing and managment right at the top level rather than biting the hand that feeds.

As supporters who ultimately fund all this through tiket sales, what can we do about something that is so patentely wrong?

You have it entirely wrong about biting the hand that feeds. The 6N is one of the incredible success stories of sport, wordwide. The IRFU are getting monies from a shared pot which raises their already huge income. It's insanely profitable. They take much of that money and use it to fund the provinces.

They own and subsidise the provinces. Their attitude to a body of fans who pick club over country in a big way will be to harden their attitudes against the provinces. You might not want them, but they don't want you if you're going to drive support away from the national team (even towards the provinces).

Just putting the other side across.

[Leinsterman]

Club verses country - club every time - and i'd have thought that the vast majortity of fans are just the same - a grand slam is nice of course, but HC victories with accompanying league success is what interests me. The by product of this for Ireland shoud be a stronger national side BECAUSE of the input of NIQ's not the other way round. Get the coacing and managment right at the top level rather than biting the hand that feeds.

As supporters who ultimately fund all this through tiket sales, what can we do about something that is so patentely wrong?

You have it entirely wrong about biting the hand that feeds. The 6N is one of the incredible success stories of sport, wordwide. The IRFU are getting monies from a shared pot which raises their already huge income. It's insanely profitable. They take much of that money and use it to fund the provinces.

They own and subsidise the provinces. Their attitude to a body of fans who pick club over country in a big way will be to harden their attitudes against the provinces. You might not want them, but they don't want you if you're going to drive support away from the national team (even towards the provinces).

Just putting the other side across.

Nail on the head there, Ronk.

[mikey]

Club verses country - club every time - and i'd have thought that the vast majortity of fans are just the same - a grand slam is nice of course, but HC victories with accompanying league success is what interests me. The by product of this for Ireland shoud be a stronger national side BECAUSE of the input of NIQ's not the other way round. Get the coacing and managment right at the top level rather than biting the hand that feeds.

As supporters who ultimately fund all this through tiket sales, what can we do about something that is so patentely wrong?

You have it entirely wrong about biting the hand that feeds. The 6N is one of the incredible success stories of sport, wordwide. The IRFU are getting monies from a shared pot which raises their already huge income. It's insanely profitable. They take much of that money and use it to fund the provinces.

They own and subsidise the provinces. Their attitude to a body of fans who pick club over country in a big way will be to harden their attitudes against the provinces. You might not want them, but they don't want you if you're going to drive support away from the national team (even towards the provinces).

Just putting the other side across.

I have no real idea how the IRFU are funded, so it certainly interesting to know that the 6 nations is such a money spinner for them - to my mind there did not seem to be enough home games for that to be so, but i'm sure you are right - I also dont know how much of a stake they have in Leinster - there had been talk of Leinster being able to be self financing, but I dont know of that would really be possible, and I of course realise that the players who are centrally contracted have their wages paid by the IRFU too. But the income from the 6 nations is there come what may - whilst there may be a marginal uplift in interest with a more successful National Team, I dont see how the chance of this is worth the risk of the massive negative impact that these new regulations will have on the rest of the game.

I think you are missing my point a little when you talk of driving support away from the National side - supporting a Province can only benefit the IRFU if they are such massive stake holders in the provinces - why would they not want me (i'm lovely) - and the success of the provinces ups the profile of Irish Rugby. However, I cannot see how making the provinces uncompetitive in European Rugby will be at all beneficial to Irish Rugby.

[totalrandomer]

They really are in lala land if the IRFU think that one grand slam is worth more than 4 HC's - I think our victory in 2009 probably had a greater long term financial impact than the grand slam Based on? Your imagination I presume?

Club verses country - club every time - and i'd have thought that the vast majortity of fans are just the same

I would be surprised if even a majority of Leinster fans feel like that, never mind a majority of Irish people

So, are you saying that you woud be happy to see cr@p rugby week in week out, with no domestic or european trophies for the chance of the odd grand slam ?, or that the odd grand slam would be more statisfying than anything that Leinster or any other province might achieve?

What?

Perhaps you better read it again.

I am saying that a majority of Leinster fans would think that International Rugby was more important than Provincial Rugby.

and a VAST majority of the Irish public would think so.

I am not expressing a view on the new IRFU proposals.

Have you been at the sherry?