Change to NIQs

[odyboody]

Top players want to play at the top. If we start forcing them to play with average players who are forced into the setup they will be off to somewhere they will still be competing for the H-cup. This will certainly harm the national team because everyone knows Deco doesn't pick a player unless they play in Ireland

[Fred Funk]

I think one of the main problems is that NIQ are not affected in general by International call ups and are therefore always available
to play week in , week out. So say Ross is away on International duty then Nathan White will start and Hagan might get 20 mins.
If Hagan was guaranteed 5 starts in the season to prove himself and get experience then maybe the balance could be right.

[Hippo]

[The whole philosophy behind this idea seems to be that all Irish players need to develop into top players is gametime at the top level. However the harsh truth is that some players simply aren't up to the required standard, not matter how much you wish it were so, e.g. Tony Buckley (sorry Mushy, but you're just the perfect example for this).

And while the benefit to Ireland is debatable, the potential harm to provinces is more certain and they will be asked to carry passengers just so Ireland selectors can see how cr@p they are, e.g. Contrast Munster's HC results with Buckley as their starting tighthead last season and them with Botha at their tighthead this season.

This is precisely it. Positive discrimination will give us lots of Irish players who may or may not turn out to be any good.

[Edna Kenny]

Do these new rules mean that we will lose Isa when his contract runs out? Or can we re-sign him in a different position? That is my main concern!

I think it would be a disaster if that was allowed to happen. Leinster used 50 players last year so there is no shortage of game time available for players. Sure enough in the Heineken cup game time is more limited but when you look at the games we played last year we needed the quality of Isa to help us through some tough games. You can see from Rob Kearney's performances this year that the competition is good, this benefits Ireland too as someone like Kearney is prrobably learning from Isa on the attacking side of his game.

I thought I read somewhere that in any given game between 2 provinces no NIE players will be able to play in the same position on both teams. This seems crazy if true.

There is a danger that all other European clubs see the irish provinces as "team Ireland", the provinces need their own identity, if there is too much collaboration there will be no rivalry which is bad for the game. There is loads of amazing talent coming through but Ireland needs to have the balls to give some of these players a chance at national level. I bet when we see the 6 nations this year that it will be virtually all of the same faces. The IRFU believes winning the next match is the only thing that matters.

As was said before on this thread, if we could just learn how to beat France we would be by far and away the most successful team in the northern hemisphere. If only Joe Schmidt could be cloned and coach the Irish team.

I have no problem cutting out average quality NIQ journeymen from the team, we have enough Irish players to fill squad positions. I think there is still a need for a few top quality imports in each province though.

[Oldschool]

[The whole philosophy behind this idea seems to be that all Irish players need to develop into top players is gametime at the top level. However the harsh truth is that some players simply aren't up to the required standard, not matter how much you wish it were so, e.g. Tony Buckley (sorry Mushy, but you're just the perfect example for this).

And while the benefit to Ireland is debatable, the potential harm to provinces is more certain and they will be asked to carry passengers just so Ireland selectors can see how cr@p they are, e.g. Contrast Munster's HC results with Buckley as their starting tighthead last season and them with Botha at their tighthead this season.

This is precisely it. Positive discrimination will give us lots of Irish players who may or may not turn out to be any good.

Always bearing in mind how successful a signing good old Twickle Toe C.J. Van Der Linde was, you pays your money and place your bets.
There are no guarantees! May or may not is part and parcel of the weeding out process. A good weeder would be worth their weight in gold.
The real worth of NIQs in the future will not just be the skill and attitudes they bring but the ability to pass these on.

[baaba maal]

I'm not a fan of this concept at all, at all. In terms of nominated positions, say we're allowed register Isa as wing and he starts games there but switches between wing and fullback with Rob ( as back three frequently do). At what point does he cease being a winger and take over a FB? 51% of the game? What about those points in a game where he could be in either position? Or he fills a defensive hole when Darcy goes down injured- is that him playing out of contract? This is not to be pedantic, but when you set in motion a scheme like this there can be all sorts of unintended consequences. Are the IRFU going to monitor every NIQ in every game?
Also, we are dealing with Irish, UK and European employment and contract law- have the IRFU really gone through all possible legal challenges? I could see a situation where Leinster might want very much to hang on to Isa and play him where they want to play him- a legal challenge by Leinster against the IRFU as a test case (with Munster and Ulster tactitly approving) is not that far-fetched.
I see what the IRFU are trying to do but this looks to me like a very blunt instrument- the current system functions very well and I think it should have been possible to get the international/provincial priorities teased out in a more joiny-up-thinking way.

[munster#1]

I'm not a fan of this concept at all, at all. In terms of nominated positions, say we're allowed register Isa as wing and he starts games there but switches between wing and fullback with Rob ( as back three frequently do). At what point does he cease being a winger and take over a FB? 51% of the game? What about those points in a game where he could be in either position? Or he fills a defensive hole when Darcy goes down injured- is that him playing out of contract? This is not to be pedantic, but when you set in motion a scheme like this there can be all sorts of unintended consequences. Are the IRFU going to monitor every NIQ in every game?
Also, we are dealing with Irish, UK and European employment and contract law- have the IRFU really gone through all possible legal challenges? I could see a situation where Leinster might want very much to hang on to Isa and play him where they want to play him- a legal challenge by Leinster against the IRFU as a test case (with Munster and Ulster tactitly approving) is not that far-fetched.
I see what the IRFU are trying to do but this looks to me like a very blunt instrument- the current system functions very well and I think it should have been possible to get the international/provincial priorities teased out in a more joiny-up-thinking way.

I think you are forgetting that leinster are a branch of the irfu, leinster is owned and ruled by the irfu, so i seriously doubt that there will be a law suit by the irfu against itself.

Also this legal question keeps being asked, i am no law wizz, but there is little difference between this new set of rules and the old, the provinces are still allowed the same number of niqs. So if there were no law suits regarding this before, i can't see it happen in the future.

[colster]

This is going to be crazy. I think that it may actually punish teams that develop players for Ireland. For example, in the front row Leinster currently have 5 players that could conceivably be away with Ireland. They also have a lot of back rows that could be away with Ireland. This could also be the case at out half and scrum half.
If this were the case then we could be playing academy players or AIL players against International NIQs in an Rabodirect match against another province. This could detrimentally effect their League position and possibly HEC qualification.

[QBer]

the provinces are still allowed the same number of niqs.

It just skews their allocation towards the provinces with the less productive academies.
Where does it say that the total number of NIQs stays the same? It's just that I missed that point.

[ronk]

the provinces are still allowed the same number of niqs.

It just skews their allocation towards the provinces with the less productive academies.
Where does it say that the total number of NIQs stays the same? It's just that I missed that point.

Implementation is the key point here. If the PAG want they will have a bigger say in targeting positions, even though that may be to the detriment of clubs.

The problem that most of us have recognised over the years is the way that fringe Irish players aren't necessarily getting chances. Take tighthead for example, Mike Ross moved to England partly because there were better (at the time) foreign players. Jamie Hagan left Leinster due to CJ, Stan and the arrival of Ross.

The national squad development strategy was wrong (flog the Bull and put all our eggs in Mushy's backet), but in some ways that's immaterial. Do we want a situation where there are 6 (or more) NIQ props covering across 12 slots (6 starters, 6 subs)? On one hand it's harder to break into the team, on the other young players are seeing a higher level to aspire to.

If we don't count Sykes (4th choice in his position at the moment), there's one NIQ covering 5 positions across 3 provinces: lock and backrow (Wannenberg). The focus has been on the lopsided nature of the weighting, but what's been ignored is the consequence of (more or less) forcing NIQs into positions where there is depth.

[cormac]

I'm not a fan of this concept at all, at all. In terms of nominated positions, say we're allowed register Isa as wing and he starts games there but switches between wing and fullback with Rob ( as back three frequently do). At what point does he cease being a winger and take over a FB? 51% of the game? What about those points in a game where he could be in either position? Or he fills a defensive hole when Darcy goes down injured- is that him playing out of contract? This is not to be pedantic, but when you set in motion a scheme like this there can be all sorts of unintended consequences. Are the IRFU going to monitor every NIQ in every game?
Also, we are dealing with Irish, UK and European employment and contract law- have the IRFU really gone through all possible legal challenges? I could see a situation where Leinster might want very much to hang on to Isa and play him where they want to play him- a legal challenge by Leinster against the IRFU as a test case (with Munster and Ulster tactitly approving) is not that far-fetched.
I see what the IRFU are trying to do but this looks to me like a very blunt instrument- the current system functions very well and I think it should have been possible to get the international/provincial priorities teased out in a more joiny-up-thinking way.

I think you are forgetting that leinster are a branch of the irfu, leinster is owned and ruled by the irfu, so i seriously doubt that there will be a law suit by the irfu against itself.

Also this legal question keeps being asked, i am no law wizz, but there is little difference between this new set of rules and the old, the provinces are still allowed the same number of niqs. So if there were no law suits regarding this before, i can't see it happen in the future.

The lawsuit would more than likely come from a NIQ player who can't be offered a new contract simply because he doesn't qualify to play for Ireland. If this player has an EU passport it would be illegal discrimination.

[fourthirtythree]

Nathan Hines would be an example of someone with locus standi if these rules were in place.

[simonokeeffe]

Think it's about giving the national team options (but do think it's too rigid)
Take Buckley, as Irish rugby fans first, who would we rather playing for Munster: an Irish qualified player or NIQ? National side wouldn't have to pick him over Ross
Theoretical plan is in that situation Munster go right we have no scrum with Buckley, lets resign Timmy Ryan who could scrum, lets throw Stephen Archer in and give him his chance etc
One of the problems for the national side with Buckley at tighthead was Ulster and Leinster had NIQ tightheads so alternatives were few

[dropkick]

I'm not a fan of this concept at all, at all. In terms of nominated positions, say we're allowed register Isa as wing and he starts games there but switches between wing and fullback with Rob ( as back three frequently do). At what point does he cease being a winger and take over a FB? 51% of the game? What about those points in a game where he could be in either position? Or he fills a defensive hole when Darcy goes down injured- is that him playing out of contract? This is not to be pedantic, but when you set in motion a scheme like this there can be all sorts of unintended consequences. Are the IRFU going to monitor every NIQ in every game?
Also, we are dealing with Irish, UK and European employment and contract law- have the IRFU really gone through all possible legal challenges? I could see a situation where Leinster might want very much to hang on to Isa and play him where they want to play him- a legal challenge by Leinster against the IRFU as a test case (with Munster and Ulster tactitly approving) is not that far-fetched.
I see what the IRFU are trying to do but this looks to me like a very blunt instrument- the current system functions very well and I think it should have been possible to get the international/provincial priorities teased out in a more joiny-up-thinking way.

I think you are forgetting that leinster are a branch of the irfu, leinster is owned and ruled by the irfu, so i seriously doubt that there will be a law suit by the irfu against itself.

Also this legal question keeps being asked, i am no law wizz, but there is little difference between this new set of rules and the old, the provinces are still allowed the same number of niqs. So if there were no law suits regarding this before, i can't see it happen in the future.

The lawsuit would more than likely come from a NIQ player who can't be offered a new contract simply because he doesn't qualify to play for Ireland. If this player has an EU passport it would be illegal discrimination.

So lets say Leinster sign a NIE player. They tell him beforehand its a 3 year contract and he signs a contract for 3 years. Are you saying that he could bring the IRFU to court if they didn't offer him another contract? That makes no sense.

Contracts are contracts and sport is a matter of opinion. I never heard of a sportsman bringing a team to court on the basis that they offered a lesser player a contract ahead of him.

[fourthirtythree]

That's why I suggested Hines. He would have a case if these rules were in place. The reason you've never heard of a suit like it might be that these rules, as reported, are too stupid to be in use anywhere.

[cormac]

So lets say Leinster sign a NIE player. They tell him beforehand its a 3 year contract and he signs a contract for 3 years. Are you saying that he could bring the IRFU to court if they didn't offer him another contract? That makes no sense.

Contracts are contracts and sport is a matter of opinion. I never heard of a sportsman bringing a team to court on the basis that they offered a lesser player a contract ahead of him.

Professional sport comes under EU law, that much has been clear since the Bosman decision in 1995. The new IRFU policy is explicit that NIQ players cannot have their contracts renewed because of their nationality and not because of their performance. That is illegal if the player is an EU national.

[Hippo]

2 things:

Any attempt to prevent an EU national's freedom of movement, regardless of any sporting context is contrary to EU law and wouldn't stand up to a challenge for 2 minutes. Unfortunately almost all NIQ's are SH.

Always bearing in mind how successful a signing good old Twickle Toe C.J. Van Der Linde was, you pays your money and place your bets.
There are no guarantees! May or may not is part and parcel of the weeding out process. A good weeder would be worth their weight in gold.
The real worth of NIQs in the future will not just be the skill and attitudes they bring but the ability to pass these on.

Of course there's an element of risk with any signing. Unfortunately under the new scheme we won't even get to take the risk. We'll be saddled with the Irish player with no option of seeking an alternative if he doesn't work out. There is a real possibility of producing some players who'll be able to coast along because the competition won't exist for their shirt. I'm only presenting part of the 'anti' argument here because frankly there's so much of it I don't have the time and have to get some shopping done!

[Danthefan]

2 things:

Any attempt to prevent an EU national's freedom of movement, regardless of any sporting context is contrary to EU law and wouldn't stand up to a challenge for 2 minutes. Unfortunately almost all NIQ's are SH.

How does this prevent freedom of movement though?

[Hippo]

Any attempt to prevent an EU national's freedom of movement, regardless of any sporting context is contrary to EU law and wouldn't stand up to a challenge for 2 minutes. Unfortunately almost all NIQ's are SH.

How does this prevent freedom of movement though?

'Freedom of movement' prevents discrimination in employment on grounds of nationality within the EU, e.g. an Irish person can't be told they can no longer work in France simply because they're not French. The IRFU's provision regarding the prohibition of renewal of a NIQ player's contract would be in direct contravention. The law isn't monolitic, there are exceptions (as with UEFA's 'homegrown' programme), but they're difficult to argue and assessed on a case-by-case basis. I'd say the IRFU's provisions go beyond the permissable, they're extremely restrictive.

[cormac]

I don't think many in Irish rugby have a problem with the IRFU restricting the number of NIQ players at the provinces, but this methodology seems a complete over-reaction to an issue we have with two positions, i.e. both props. Irish rugby has never had any great strength in depth across all 15 positions and that continues to this day. I'd nearly go as far to say that the provinces are currently churning out players who could stand the equal of practically any Irish side since we played our first match in the 1870's.

The reason that we've had to import props is because the training and development of props in this country declined. The imports weren't holding back any potential greats and merely giving inadequately prepared players game time wouldn't have improved the situation at all. There is a balance to be maintained of course, but this proposal from the IRFU is far too inflexible.