Lukey Fitz

[cormac]

Am I the only one who's surprised he's still under consideration for a central contract?

No. And add the entire Turnip contingent who are no doubt clamouring for Zebo to get it...

He is in no way a first choice starter for Ireland and should not be in consideration for a contract. FFS Darcy hasn't had one in a couple of years. Giving central contracts to out of favour players leads to weird inconsistencies like O'Callaghan starting for Ireland but not munster and players like Tuohy not getting a look in.

Are you sure about that? (underlined). I thought D'Arcy was one of a few that signed up contracts 2 years ago with a reduction in salary of approx 30%.

No, D'Arcy was one of the few who had to take a pay cut because they reduced the number of central contracts from 30 to roughly 20-22. Stringer was another player who lost out, think Boss may have been another.

[ror]

Yes , but the tax he pays in France for example is gone for ever. So basically he need to be offered 30% more to make it financially viable.

[Golf Man]

The tax issue is not major - he could get a reasonably favourable treatment in France for a couple of years (would expect he'd be at about 30% effective tax over there with a bit of tax planning) and as long as he came back and finished his career here he would still get the 10 year tax break for sports players.

In terms of the last 2 seasons he has not added too much to the team, so you would wonder how big a loss he would be. Having said that, most of us believe he has the potential to be something special again (probably playing centre), so I would be sorry to see him go.

I'm pretty sure that the marginal tax rates in France are now pretty close to ours. You would expect him to be offered more in France than here. So he may miss out on topping up his 10 year tax rebate for a couple of years, but would earn more in that time. Seems like unless there was an astromonical difference that it shouldn't matter. Add into that you can presume that he would prefer to continue with Leinster at the moment - would he go for 10% more, 20% more???

On the second point, is the general opinion that he will end up in teh centre. He has always seemed to be a player who was on the wing to get him into the team, and was eventually going to move to either 12/13 or even 15 - not sure if that is still the case, and as a winger he is very good, but not great

[OTT]

The reported reduced offer on various radio stations this morning was 30%/E80,000, while probably not being exact it is a huge amount of money to disappear from your expectations.

Luke is still only 24 he had a really bad 2 years injury wise and was rushed back out of position because we (Ireland) needed him, we (Ireland) then made him the scapegoat when things didnt work out (nevermind the fact he shouldnt have been in the team when only returning from the 2nd long term injury in a row, eager player wanted to play eager management wanted to to pick him both made poor choices I know where the large amount of the blame should go ). We (Ireland) broke him now we discard him?

What ever tinted glasses I have on I dont think theres a more talented back in this country (BOD excluded of course) then Luke Fitzgerald. I have seen what he can do in attack when he is on form and I know what he can do in defence.

I hope he stays at Leinster because I believe his best years are ahead of him but if he goes I will wish him all the best, 99 Leinster caps already and hes still only 24 (and has missed a large amount of rugby with injury as already stated) I think he deserves to be wanted where ever that may be.

Loyalty is a two way thing and picking a guy who wasnt ready because you needed him and then burying him (at such a young age) is what Luke got from Team Ireland, I consider their treatment of TOL exactly the same the guy got back in the team after a long injury off the back of nothing tangible when there were other alternatives and they played him till he was down to zero confidence wise then let him go (another guy only 28 and im presuming they were shafting him money wise in his new contract offer??). Then I look at two guys like Bob Casey and Trevor Brennan, limited international careers but boy were they loved by LI and Toulouse respectively. Quality of life, Monetary gains, the rugby and not always getting shat on must be significant factors for young men in decisions like this. Hope whatever choice he makes its the best one for Luke.

[fourthirtythree]

On the second point, is the general opinion that he will end up in teh centre. He has always seemed to be a player who was on the wing to get him into the team, and was eventually going to move to either 12/13 or even 15 - not sure if that is still the case, and as a winger he is very good, but not great

I've always seen him as a natural 13: strong defence, great step in traffic, and wonderful timing and balance. He consistently creates tries for others at Leinster by committing defenders and releasing at just the right moment. Never really felt he had the out and out pace for a winger and never liked him at 15 either. Obviously even less so now.

He's barely played at OC however, and been overlooked at that position repeatedly as others are tried out or have had runs there so he may never actually play in the centre.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Assuming that we won't see Shaggy in a Leinster jersey again, Luke could be very important over the next couple of years. His importance over the last couple of years may be in question but I personally think that he'd leave a masive hole in the squad and am pretty confident that he'll come good again. He was poor on Friday but there was a massive overreaction to that performance and he actually did some good things as well as making the mistakes.

[Darce]

Assuming that we won't see Shaggy in a Leinster jersey again, Luke could be very important over the next couple of years. His importance over the last couple of years may be in question but I personally think that he'd leave a masive hole in the squad and am pretty confident that he'll come good again. He was poor on Friday but there was a massive overreaction to that performance and he actually did some good things as well as making the mistakes.

Was he really that bad? Yes, the chip was poorly executed and led to the try and he misjudged whether or not to catch a touchfinder or not. But other than that, he was good

[fogey]

Luke s awareness is only equalled by BOD. Really do not want him to go.Would be a huge loss to Leinster -and Ireland even if he has a location problem.
But Luke if you must do not go to a club with TOL as scrum half.
For years Ireland played the outstanding attacker at 13 with a kicking 10-,one for whom the rules of engagement for 7s were re written, and so left Irelands best attacker and his centre partners as a prime source of turnover or slowing opposition ball.Where the 13 also happened to be the best defender and was often up to his armpits in rucks et al. thus the teams attacking and defense capabilities were compromised.
Unfortunately TOL is a very poor passer of the ball-passing his least favourite option, because he has no faith in it, and doubt his box kicking will offer many opportunities for a successful chase.
So while I have followed L.I. if you do go -go to a club where your talents can be developed and used.
Where ever Luke go safely.

[BlueBlue]

I think the IRFU are making a big mistake here, if they want a realistic succession policy to BOD they should not be putting all their money on Earls. I think Kidney wants Earls, and thinks he has his man, but he is wrong and I don’t think that is going to work out. Earls is a wing and a pretty good one at that, but he’s not a natural centre. This brings back nightmares of persisting with Buckley as the great white hope to replace Hayes, when Buckley just didn’t have the ability.

Luke’s a natural centre, and young. He is one of the players who could replace BOD when the time comes. Its a mistake to put all out money on the one option. Earls is not a centre, nor is he a very large centre which is where the game is going once again.

I hope he stays, we need his to stay. I wish to see the back of Kidney as soon as possible.

[Sauvignon Blank]

He's been very unlucky with injuries which have hampered his form considerably. Unfortunately for Luke, Kidney doesn't really rate him so unless he stays injury free and plays relatively well then he's surplus to requirements to the Irish set up.

I'm not surprised to hear about the pay cut and in fact agree with it. He was a smashing player and will hopefully get back to where he was if he remains injury free but he shouldn't be rewarded with a better contract. Thats madness, just like ROG & DOC's etc were foolhardy.

He'll have to swallow his pride and take what Leinster offer which I hope he does.

[OTT]

He's been very unlucky with injuries which have hampered his form considerably. Unfortunately for Luke, Kidney doesn't really rate him so unless he stays injury free and plays relatively well then he's surplus to requirements to the Irish set up.

I'm not surprised to hear about the pay cut and in fact agree with it. He was a smashing player and will hopefully get back to where he was if he remains injury free but he shouldn't be rewarded with a better contract. Thats madness, just like ROG & DOC's etc were foolhardy.

He'll have to swallow his pride and take what Leinster offer which I hope he does.

Or do a Tommy Bowe who was also surplus to Irish requirements when he left for the Ospreys, in the end Ulster were the big losers (as would Leinster be in this instance) while Ireland let him rebuild the confidence they had taken from him (France'06 anyone? SCAPEGOAT, non selection in the '07 World Cup Squad......Brian Carney *Cough* *Cough*....really!!) and then started selecting him again.

Luke is 24 its not really the same situation as DOC & ROG who were both probably past their big career deals (and when the Broncos finally went for Manning and Tebow went to the Jets, ROG must have known the writing was on the wall for his NFL career.)

[AdamK]

I don't get this DK not rating Fitz thing... He's played nearly every international bar injury whilst Ireland has been coached by DK no? He even persisted with him last season when he was god-awful.

I think the problem could be with the IRFU really. I hope he stays on, as I think he's hugely important to Irish rugby and more importantly he's needed at Leinster. I don't think Kidders rates McFadden as a center, and Darce will be hanging up his boots soon, and hopefully he'll stop this carry on with moving Sexton to 12... so we could possibly see Fitzy begrudgingly playing a few games at 12 next season for Ireland.. and if he plays like he did in September he'll be cutting up defenses nicely. A lot of people are talking about his strike rate, which is fair enough as he's a winger, but I think his depth and skillset is far more important than that.

[Golf Man]

I don't get this DK not rating Fitz thing... He's played nearly every international bar injury whilst Ireland has been coached by DK no? He even persisted with him last season when he was god-awful.

I think the problem could be with the IRFU really. I hope he stays on, as I think he's hugely important to Irish rugby and more importantly he's needed at Leinster. I don't think Kidders rates McFadden as a center, and Darce will be hanging up his boots soon, and hopefully he'll stop this carry on with moving Sexton to 12... so we could possibly see Fitzy begrudgingly playing a few games at 12 next season for Ireland.. and if he plays like he did in September he'll be cutting up defenses nicely. A lot of people are talking about his strike rate, which is fair enough as he's a winger, but I think his depth and skillset is far more important than that.

Completely agree with you on DKs view of Fitz - he gave him every chance last year, more than he shuld have really but Fitz unfortunately chose to have this form crisis in the lead up to the world cup. Given that he has never been much of an attacking threat for Ireland and his form was so bad, it was a fair call for him to be excluded

I'd have no problem with him moving inside but a lot of opinion on Fitz seems to be just that with very little facts to back it up. Cheika and Schmidt never really considered him as anything other than a centre iirc (aprt from a few games here and there obviously)

On McFadden - I like him but am completely unconvinced at this stage. Schmidt obviously has some concern as well - McFadden has been pretty much ever present this year with BOD out, but I can't ever remember him being picked at 12 in a big HC game when Darcy and BOD were available - interesting to see the selection for the Cardiff game. McF is far more proven at centre than Fitz and I'd love him to be picked ahead of Darcy - and become the first choice No.12

[rathgarblue]

Letting Luke go is bad business for Ireland and Leinster.
Ireland: Post Darcy and BOD Luke is 3rd or 4th choice at worst for both wing and centre.
Leinster: Post Darcy and BOD he is first choice in centre along with McF.

Luke is a young guy, ok he's had his injuries but he's come back and unless there is a underlying medical issue no logic in cutting the pay of a 24 year old.

[Golf Man]

Letting Luke go is bad business for Ireland and Leinster.
Ireland: Post Darcy and BOD Luke is 3rd or 4th choice at worst for both wing and centre.
Leinster: Post Darcy and BOD he is first choice in centre along with McF.

Luke is a young guy, ok he's had his injuries but he's come back and unless there is a underlying medical issue no logic in cutting the pay of a 24 year old.

1. Darcy & esp BOD are going to be there for another two years probably
2. We have good young wingers as well as a couple of really good prospects - its an area of strength
3. Fitz is completely unproven in the centre. For Ireland I would have thought that McF/Earls/Cave are definitely ahead of him. For Leinster EOM seems to be ahead of him
4. The logic is basic economics - either trying to cut rates or offer more central contracts - Fitz is not in a great position with this negotation. He is not in the POC/BOD bracket (who can essentially name their price), or the Bowe/Ferris/Sexton/Kearney/Heaslip/Best bracket (who are going to be kept). He is in a position where we have strength in depth and hasn't been in the Ireland team for the last year

I hope he stays and reckon that he will => the timing of this is not good for him - this time next year he could be in a far stronger position if he gets back into the team and improves (either as a winger or a centre) - he is absolutely capable of this, but whether it will happen, I'm not sure.

He would probably be one who might benefit if Darcy is dropped from the national team, as he should be and arguably from teh Leinster team. BOD to 12 has long been suggested and now might be the time to do it. This would leave a possible slot at 13 for Leinster, with EOM/McF in his way. I could also see Earls playing a lot on the wing for Munster next year (have to say I like a back 5 of Downey/Laulala/Zebo/Jones/Earls) which could open up the 13 spot for Ireland as well

[heno]

I think Luke has suffered most from the lack of defining himself (or being defined by others) into a position. R Kearney for example played on the wing for a long time, but we always had him down as a full back, and so it came to pass. With Luke, he has and still does play most often on the wing, but still people are not saying "keep him on the wing", as some did with the Bowe to 13 discussions. And then there was the whole Luke to full back thing. He was seen saying it was something he wanted at the time when it was needed by ireland, but for leinster he was at best 3rd choice in that position. So I think the best thing for him to do now is decide himself, is he a wing or centre (or full back) and then opt for the best choice for him to maximise his potential in that position. If he does, the ireland caps will follow (a la Bowe).

So if he decides wing, then stay at leinster and try for the best central contract he can. He will have a likely starting position in both teams, or near enough. If he decides full back, the best thing is to leave as he is 2nd choice for ireland (if even) and 3rd for leinster (again if even that). If he decides centre, that is less certain. Definitely there is an opportunity with BOD and Darcy heading to retirement. But there are 2 arguements - 1) stay in the shadows and hope to be in the shake up to succeed. 2) leave to cement a starting position somewhere else, and become a hopefully world class and then in 2 years hope/look for a contract to come back.

Its not that straight forward and this may be exactly what he's trying to weigh up.

Or not, maybe its all about the readies...

[suisse]

Luke s awareness is only equalled by BOD.

What ever tinted glasses I have on I dont think theres a more talented back in this country (BOD excluded of course) then Luke Fitzgerald. I have seen what he can do in attack when he is on form and I know what he can do in defence

Luke Fitzgerald fan myself, but let's not get too far ahead of ourselves.

By "talented", what exactly do you mean? Some of his counter attacks? Fitzgerald is a very poor kicker, he can't pass as well as he should, he's not as good at tackling as he once way, and he doesn't back himself like he did pre injury. He may provide a lot of assists, but he doesn't score enough tries.

His awareness is also something I'd jump on. When he plays centre, his awareness is awful. He runs ahead of his man too often, he can't hold his depth and he infringes a lot as a result.

Certain aspects of his game are top class, but he has far too many holes too. Has he really come on from what we expected he would do?

[lostprofit]

Anyone remember the Ospreys game?
No?
Ill remind you, he was pretty damn bad.
Hes not a full back. Hes not a wing. And hes untested in the centre. Ahead of O'Malley? How, when called on, has been excellent? Get over yourself.
Excellent defending? Madness hes terrible.
So he wants a full contract having not been used internationally for 2 years now? Maybe a bit more? Injurys or not, he hasnt done anything to DESERVE a full contract and should take what is been offered and continue to develop with Leinster.
And I noticed some just had to bring in Zebo to this. Lets be honest chaps, the lad is on fire and if he gets mentioned in the same sentence as a contract its because he deserves it.
At this point, Luke does not.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Certain aspects of his game are top class, but he has far too many holes too. Has he really come on from what we expected he would do?

I think that's a big part of the problem with Luke. The expectations everyone had when he left school were ridiculously high and then he spent one day in the academy and his first touch in a pro game (iirc) was to catch a high ball and step the chasing player. He hasn't become the great player that many of us expected him to be (yet) but he's still been a fine player for the most part of his career.

We should judge him on his own merits and not just the expectations we had from when he was a schoolboy. To my mind he's only really had one bad season which was on the back of his knee injury and even then he turned that around pretty well by the end of last season. He was very good up until Christmas and to my mind there seems to be an overreaction to his performance on Friday. There were certain things that were very bad such as letting a kick bounce but he wasn't the only one to do that during the game and I wonder was the light playing tricks on the players? I'm not exactly excusing Luke for it but I think it's unfair that he gets criticised for it when others don't.

[Dexter]

Certain aspects of his game are top class, but he has far too many holes too. Has he really come on from what we expected he would do?

I think that's a big part of the problem with Luke. The expectations everyone had when he left school were ridiculously high and then he spent one day in the academy and his first touch in a pro game (iirc) was to catch a high ball and step the chasing player. He hasn't become the great player that many of us expected him to be (yet) but he's still been a fine player for the most part of his career.

We should judge him on his own merits and not just the expectations we had from when he was a schoolboy. To my mind he's only really had one bad season which was on the back of his knee injury and even then he turned that around pretty well by the end of last season. He was very good up until Christmas and to my mind there seems to be an overreaction to his performance on Friday. There were certain things that were very bad such as letting a kick bounce but he wasn't the only one to do that during the game and I wonder was the light playing tricks on the players? I'm not exactly excusing Luke for it but I think it's unfair that he gets criticised for it when others don't.

Well said. Luke seems to attract a lot of hysteria, including some of the comments on here.