Lukey Fitz

[OTT]

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[OTT]

Suisse asked: By "talented", what exactly do you mean?

I mean I think he has the natural skills only bettered by BOD(who also couldnt be classed as a good kicker but he has improved, he has eight and a half years on Luke BTW) he certainly isnt the finished article if he was thats what I would have said. I dont believe he has turned into a bad defender either and if a game was picked based only on defence he would be in the Irish team ahead of both Trimble and Bowe imo (obviously its not and shouldnt be), he missed a tackle that he shouldnt have done against the Ospreys I would hope that wasnt the reason the IRFU decided to cut his contract by 30% if it was we wont have any players going forward if they do any analysis on an Ireland game. You dont think he backs himself like he does pre injury I think he does just my opinion(prior to his most recent period out injured). You say he doesnt score enough trys? Thats a fair point, do you think he can score more in the future or is he destined to always have a bad strike rate in your opinion? About Luke and the centre.......to be honest I didnt think he was great at the time (long time ago now) I did think that he could play on the wing, improve his game and maybe one day come inside when the great man and his sidekick finally called it a day.....I still think this now, O'Malley is less then a year younger then Luke and McFadden is a year older have they made themselves the permanent fixture for Leinster going forward? Not for me anyway its a pretty open race, great to have different options.

Your final question: Has he really come on from what we expected he would do? To judge him on this is unfair he is still a young guy who has missed alot of rugby through injury so the obvious answer is no but if I was asked the question do I have faith that he can still become the player we expected him to become, I would say yes.

I fully accept others opinions that to their mind the investment in Luke isnt worth it they might not think hes good enough/to injury prone/to old to pursue with when there are young guys coming through.

Its my opinion still that he is gonna be the player we all want( I hope we all do anyway) him to become and if he doesnt he will still be the very fine player that he is now.


Lostprofit, you clearly are a massive Luke fan, if he is a terrible defender (which he isnt) surely you would appreciate this as he would be equal to O'Malley then in this regard. You noticed someone brought in Zebo.....another serious defender in your opinion??

Im afraid we are not in the old Soviet Union comrade, the notion that someone should just take what they are offered and get back in their corner as you suggest Luke should do with the current contract offer is not the way our society works, he is a commodity (of differing values to different people) that other clubs will be willing to offer a more lucrative contract to then the IRFU.

He should do what ever is best for him. And maybe he needs to leave Leinster, it would make some leinster fans very happy it would seem.



BTW I totally accept my opinions mean nothing and are only what I believe.

[mtleinster]

If Luke is to get what he thinks he is worth, why not just sign a one year deal to get himself back into form, lose the "only looking after your own interest" tag he is going to pick up.

If he can rediscover the form he had 3,4,5 years ago he will be in a much better position.

He has had a few good games and one great game this season. No bargining power what so ever. the fact that he was injured during the 6N didnt help because baby K got a taste of the Irish set up

[AdamK]

I wouldn't be surprised if by the business end of this season people will change their tune in a more postive way on him ...

[OTT]

If Luke is to get what he thinks he is worth, why not just sign a one year deal to get himself back into form, lose the "only looking after your own interest" tag he is going to pick up.

If he can rediscover the form he had 3,4,5 years ago he will be in a much better position.

He has had a few good games and one great game this season. No bargining power what so ever. the fact that he was injured during the 6N didnt help because baby K got a taste of the Irish set up

I agree with most of this. I do however think he should 100% look after his own interests thats what every player in the game does as well as the different organizations from leinster to munster and Ireland. If the IRFU owe him nothing then the reverse is true? What is best for him only he knows himself.

I would pick Luke ahead of D. Kearney (who is a fine player) every day of the week, but as already stated I am a huge fan of Luke as a rugby player, in this I at least have one thing in common with super Joe Schmidt

Again I accept most people wouod select different Leinster 15's which is a healthy thing.

[Scott]

I wouldn't be surprised if by the business end of this season people will change their tune in a more postive way on him ...

Hope so. When on form he was unbelievable in defence & a proven quality international test winger. Problem is both injury & form have meant it's been a long time since any of that has been evident. I think he was average before his most recent injury. I don't buy into the shredding of a non existent Bath defence as evidence of a return to the top. Bath were a disgrace that day imo especially the no show in the second half. Also heard some bullshit that Kidney destroyed his confidence by playing him at fb - Luke Fitzgerald gave interviews to anyone that would listen shouting from the roof tops that fb was he favored position and that's where he wanted to play. I hope Luke stays at Leinster but i don't have any issue with the IRFU reducing he's terms based on the evidence of the past 18mts. It's a two year contract on the table. So he will be 26 when a renewal comes around & that's when most profession rugby players sign the big contract

[OTT]

Also heard some bullshit that Kidney destroyed his confidence by playing him at fb - Luke Fitzgerald gave interviews to anyone that would listen shouting from the roof tops that fb was he favored position and that's where he wanted to play. I hope Luke stays at Leinster but i don't have any issue with the IRFU reducing he's terms based on the evidence of the past 18mts. It's a two year contract on the table. So he will be 26 when a renewal comes around & that's when most profession rugby players sign the big contract

I think I should be flanker for Ireland (its my favourite position) doesnt mean I should be picked. And my point was more that he shouldnt have been picked for Ireland period at that time he had done nothing to merit selection, the fact that he was playing in an unfamiliar position at pro level (think one of his years on the Rock S he was fullback another centre) certainly didnt help the situation, he then selected him 4 games in a row.....when does DK start taking a smidgeon of responsibility??

[AdamK]

I wouldn't be surprised if by the business end of this season people will change their tune in a more postive way on him ...

Hope so. When on form he was unbelievable in defence & a proven quality international test winger. Problem is both injury & form have meant it's been a long time since any of that has been evident. I think he was average before his most recent injury. I don't buy into the shredding of a non existent Bath defence as evidence of a return to the top. Bath were a disgrace that day imo especially the no show in the second half. Also heard some bullshit that Kidney destroyed his confidence by playing him at fb - Luke Fitzgerald gave interviews to anyone that would listen shouting from the roof tops that fb was he favored position and that's where he wanted to play. I hope Luke stays at Leinster but i don't have any issue with the IRFU reducing he's terms based on the evidence of the past 18mts. It's a two year contract on the table. So he will be 26 when a renewal comes around & that's when most profession rugby players sign the big contract

You're right about the Bath game. But in every other game he played since September he was the standout player in the backline. Fair enough the internationals were away, but he was playing against some tough opposition and in most cases tore apart defenses, especially when playing at 12. He broke the gainline constantly and setup the majority of the backline tries in any game he played. I record as much of the league as I can possibly, and I've been going over the games he played in, and he really was our standout back for most of the season. To call him average is unfair imo.

[Xanthippe]

There were certain things that were very bad such as letting a kick bounce but he wasn't the only one to do that during the game and I wonder was the light playing tricks on the players? I'm not exactly excusing Luke for it but I think it's unfair that he gets criticised for it when others don't.

Interersting that you should mention that - it's the first time it's come up in any of the discussions about the match. My daughter (who, to be fair, spends quite a lot of time watching Luke!!) commented, on more than one occasion in the first half, that Luke appeared to be sheltering his eyes when looking up at a high ball - she wondered if there was any possibility that the floodlights had been moved or somehow redirected towards the pitch and were causing problems.

[Golf Man]

Also heard some bullshit that Kidney destroyed his confidence by playing him at fb - Luke Fitzgerald gave interviews to anyone that would listen shouting from the roof tops that fb was he favored position and that's where he wanted to play. I hope Luke stays at Leinster but i don't have any issue with the IRFU reducing he's terms based on the evidence of the past 18mts. It's a two year contract on the table. So he will be 26 when a renewal comes around & that's when most profession rugby players sign the big contract

I think I should be flanker for Ireland (its my favourite position) doesnt mean I should be picked. And my point was more that he shouldnt have been picked for Ireland period at that time he had done nothing to merit selection, the fact that he was playing in an unfamiliar position at pro level (think one of his years on the Rock S he was fullback another centre) certainly didnt help the situation, he then selected him 4 games in a row.....when does DK start taking a smidgeon of responsibility??

That is pure and utter bullshit OTT - Kearney and Murphy were injured, Jones was as well I think (certainly would have only been coming back). The other option was Gavin Duffy, which DK would have rightly been slated for if he had picked him there. The options at full back were Fitz/Earls and possibly Bowe (never really an option imo). Much of a muchness as to who you piced from the other two but Fitz obviously really wanted it and would have had more experience at the position as well. When he was picked, it was entirely right that DK stick by him - if he had dropped him after one game, what message would that send??

For reference look at Earls being selected at 13 for this years 6N - he was rightly stuck with and improved throughout the tournament. Fitz unfortunately didn't take advantage of the chance and faith that was shown in him

There is plenty that can be blamed on Kidney, but its pathetic to try to blame him for this

Also I don't think that anyone has suggested that he is terrible defender - its his defence kept him on the Ireland team for so long. He simply doesn't have enough of a threat as a winger to be a top top class one, and put him into the top bracket of players. While some of our other wingers can have defensive lapses, they are not liabilities (you mention Zebo for example - his defence has improved immeasurably this year) and I would guess that pretty much all of the wingers have better scoring records than Fitz

McF and EOM may not have sown down the centre positions for Leinster but they are surely ahead of Fitz??

He is currently an excellent provinical player and a good if limited international, who hasn't developed as everybody thought and hoped he would - he should be treated as such in any contract negotiations

[OTT]

I think I should be flanker for Ireland (its my favourite position) doesnt mean I should be picked. And my point was more that he shouldnt have been picked for Ireland period at that time he had done nothing to merit selection, the fact that he was playing in an unfamiliar position at pro level (think one of his years on the Rock S he was fullback another centre) certainly didnt help the situation, he then selected him 4 games in a row.....when does DK start taking a smidgeon of responsibility??

That is pure and utter bullshit OTT - Kearney and Murphy were injured, Jones was as well I think (certainly would have only been coming back). The other option was Gavin Duffy, which DK would have rightly been slated for if he had picked him there. The options at full back were Fitz/Earls and possibly Bowe (never really an option imo). Much of a muchness as to who you piced from the other two but Fitz obviously really wanted it and would have had more experience at the position as well. When he was picked, it was entirely right that DK stick by him - if he had dropped him after one game, what message would that send??

For reference look at Earls being selected at 13 for this years 6N - he was rightly stuck with and improved throughout the tournament. Fitz unfortunately didn't take advantage of the chance and faith that was shown in him

There is plenty that can be blamed on Kidney, but its pathetic to try to blame him for this

Also I don't think that anyone has suggested that he is terrible defender - its his defence kept him on the Ireland team for so long. He simply doesn't have enough of a threat as a winger to be a top top class one, and put him into the top bracket of players. While some of our other wingers can have defensive lapses, they are not liabilities (you mention Zebo for example - his defence has improved immeasurably this year) and I would guess that pretty much all of the wingers have better scoring records than Fitz

McF and EOM may not have sown down the centre positions for Leinster but they are surely ahead of Fitz??

He is currently an excellent provinical player and a good if limited international, who hasn't developed as everybody thought and hoped he would - he should be treated as such in any contract negotiations

Look you might have picked Fitzgerald in the 6 nations 2011 when he had hardly played for Leinster, I wouldnt have not even on the wing, maybe you and deccie were right maybe not. TOL should not have been parachuted in either, he didnt merit it and it certainly hasnt helped him again, like the summer internationals most certainly did not just my opinion. After being picked against alot of peoples better judgement (not just me) Luke played poorly and eventually fell by the sword, no arguements.

In my limited time posting on here I have been an advocate for form selection for Ireland, in this instance he had no form (how could he, he was coming back from injury) so shouldnt have been selected, the fact he was is what is wrong with the Irish team at the minute. Calling me pathetic in wanting our national coach to take some responsibility is a little harsh. I havent jumped on any bandwagon threads about DK, I just ask for consistency from him.

We differ in what we think Fitz value to the team can be, thats allowed, its healthy.

I mentioned Zebo because someone else dogging Lukes defence bigged up Zebo so I inquired if they thought he was a serious defender . Thats it no more no less.

You of course are correct that Luke doesnt have all the powr in the contract negotiations( Hugonaut has a good thread in demented mole on this) but he does not have to stay in Leinster and he should do whatever he thinks is best for himself. Not what I, you or any other people think he should do.

[fourthirtythree]

That is pure and utter bullshit OTT - Kearney and Murphy were injured, Jones was as well I think (certainly would have only been coming back). The other option was Gavin Duffy, which DK would have rightly been slated for if he had picked him there.

He should have picked Duffy who was playing well. The first duty of a FB is to be safe. Luke's jitters spread through the team.

Earls has been playing at 13, and isn't coming back from a long injury and clearly not up to playing at international level. Luke was (not playing the position he was selected at, was coming back from injury and would have been dropped by Leinster bar last minute injuries to others so should not have been playing for Ireland) and the situation was really badly managed. The manager got it wrong. Badly wrong. And it was obvious to most people from outside that this was happening at the time and that he was the wrong pick at full-back for at least the first one or two matches.

Whether a player thinks they should play prop or SH is of no account and shouldn't be used by the management to cover up their failures.

[Golf Man]

That is pure and utter bullshit OTT - Kearney and Murphy were injured, Jones was as well I think (certainly would have only been coming back). The other option was Gavin Duffy, which DK would have rightly been slated for if he had picked him there.

He should have picked Duffy who was playing well. The first duty of a FB is to be safe. Luke's jitters spread through the team.

Earls has been playing at 13, and isn't coming back from a long injury and clearly not up to playing at international level. Luke was (not playing the position he was selected at, was coming back from injury and would have been dropped by Leinster bar last minute injuries to others so should not have been playing for Ireland) and the situation was really badly managed. The manager got it wrong. Badly wrong. And it was obvious to most people from outside that this was happening at the time and that he was the wrong pick at full-back for at least the first one or two matches.

Whether a player thinks they should play prop or SH is of no account and shouldn't be used by the management to cover up their failures.

You don't have your facts completely right

From looking at the records in 2010 Fitz played in 7 Leinster games excluding friendlies (including 2 at full back), then got injured and missed 9 games, came back and played 3 (including 1 at full back) before being selected at full back for the 6N. He had admittedly missed a large proprtion of the season before

In 2011 Earls played in the WC (all at wing), then played 2 games for Munster (on the wing) before getting injured, before coming back to play 5 games at centre, prior to being selected for the 6N

The two are far closer than you make out

Also there was a crisis at full back with Duffy the only specialist available. Selecting Duffy would have been a DOC/Darcy type selection - the kind that Kidney is absolutely rightly lambasted for - the safe and secure option (although in Duffys case there is no evdience that he was that safe or that secure at full back). Selecting Fitz/Earls was a more radical, forward thinking selection, which offered huge possibilities going forward, which you were never going to get from Duffy.

Bearing in mind that this was a radical, forward thinking, offensive selection from Kidney then its ridiculous to blame him for Fitzs failure to perform - while there was a risk in selecting him what he did was the exact thing that people have been calling out for in the last couple of years - its actually the one occassion where he took a (relative) risk in selection rather than going with the tried and tested. I think its a bit rich to use this particular stick on DK (especially when there are so many others to choose from)

As for outside perception - all I can remember was that people thought it was a great idea - the idea of Fitz-Earls-Bowe was a really threatening back 3, who could do real damage

Also in cases like this, where the spot is wide open, the idea of a player wanting to play somewhere has to come into management thinking. Fitz was actively looking to play 15, if for exampe that Earls would be slightly uncomfortable playing 15, would it not be poor management to ignore these facts??? If you have a high ball coming in on top of a full back the last thing you want is him thinking about whether he should be playing in that position

[tones]

If we lose Luke, it will come back to seriously bite us in the ass. He has been very good this year, and god love a pro turning around in the paper saying what position he would like to play in. Kidney still had the judgement call regardless of what Luke said.

[fourthirtythree]

You don't have your facts completely right

From looking at the records in 2010 Fitz played in 7 Leinster games excluding friendlies (including 2 at full back), then got injured and missed 9 games, came back and played 3 (including 1 at full back) before being selected at full back for the 6N. He had admittedly missed a large proprtion of the season before

In 2011 Earls played in the WC (all at wing), then played 2 games for Munster (on the wing) before getting injured, before coming back to play 5 games at centre, prior to being selected for the 6N

The two are far closer than you make out

He was dropped from the first 15 because he was playing badly by Leinster and only got that third game because of injury in the warmup. He was awful against Saracens on a day when we hammered them he gifted them with three tries. As far as I know he got the game at FB in that three games at the request of the Ireland management (it was a league game at home and he was, IIRC, awful). So yes, you can indeed criticise the Irish management for selecting a player not ready to play for his club, out of position, at international level. That's not exciting, daring, far seeing, etc. etc. it's simply the wrong pick. Duffy was playing fine. He should have been picked. Maybe Luke would have come back into the reckoning after a few games for Leinster with the international contingent away, or maybe not. We can't tell that but we can tell that he was career threateningly awful that 6N and the management got it wrong. Very wrong. And it was pretty obvious they were going to get it wrong and that they persisted with a wrong decision. Once he picks you, he picks you until he hopes it gets right (see Buckley).

[Scott]

If we lose Luke, it will come back to seriously bite us in the ass. He has been very good this year, and god love a pro turning around in the paper saying what position he would like to play in. Kidney still had the judgement call regardless of what Luke said.

it's one thing to mention what your favored position is, it's another to pitch for it in the national media on a near daily basis as Fitzgerald did.

[OTT]

You don't have your facts completely right

From looking at the records in 2010 Fitz played in 7 Leinster games excluding friendlies (including 2 at full back), then got injured and missed 9 games, came back and played 3 (including 1 at full back) before being selected at full back for the 6N. He had admittedly missed a large proprtion of the season before

In 2011 Earls played in the WC (all at wing), then played 2 games for Munster (on the wing) before getting injured, before coming back to play 5 games at centre, prior to being selected for the 6N

The two are far closer than you make out

Luke was out of the game close to a year, came back wasnt performing as well as he had been prior to injury, got injured, was rushed back for Leinster and played poorly in these matches because Ireland needed him. . Earls missed how long? and how many games in total? And when did he come back? If you want to be fair, lets be fair.

Also there was a crisis at full back with Duffy the only specialist available. Selecting Duffy would have been a DOC/Darcy type selection - the kind that Kidney is absolutely rightly lambasted for - the safe and secure option (although in Duffys case there is no evdience that he was that safe or that secure at full back). Selecting Fitz/Earls was a more radical, forward thinking selection, which offered huge possibilities going forward, which you were never going to get from Duffy.

Bearing in mind that this was a radical, forward thinking, offensive selection from Kidney then its ridiculous to blame him for Fitzs failure to perform - while there was a risk in selecting him what he did was the exact thing that people have been calling out for in the last couple of years - its actually the one occassion where he took a (relative) risk in selection rather than going with the tried and tested. I think its a bit rich to use this particular stick on DK (especially when there are so many others to choose from)

DOC is/was getting out performed by D Ryan and getting picked ahead of him on the Munster team that was peoples issue it is entirely a different arguement and you well know it.

Radical thinking would have been to let guys get some form back for their provinces with an eye on the possible world cup which lay in wait instead of picking them when they were not fully over their injuries.

As for outside perception - all I can remember was that people thought it was a great idea - the idea of Fitz-Earls-Bowe was a really threatening back 3, who could do real damage

Also in cases like this, where the spot is wide open, the idea of a player wanting to play somewhere has to come into management thinking. Fitz was actively looking to play 15, if for exampe that Earls would be slightly uncomfortable playing 15, would it not be poor management to ignore these facts??? If you have a high ball coming in on top of a full back the last thing you want is him thinking about whether he should be playing in that position

You obviously thought it was a great idea others may have to, history has proved it wasnt.

Earls and Bowe had locked down the wing positions. Fitzgerald played fullback, played badly and in the end was dropped, they are the facts. Should the players pick the team in your opinion??


I apologise for this repitition but it seems convenient for certain posters on here to ignore things as is convenient for them. My first post on this thread was probably the one id relate back to to show I am just a fan with an opinion and I am not actually Luke Fitzgerald himself!!

[deco]

OTT, I know you're new about these parts, but trying to engage GOLFMAN in reasonable debate is bit like trying to use the proverbial ashtray on a motorbike.

We used to think she was ROG's mammy, but now we think she's a prepubescent teen who fancies anyone who's ever togged out for Munster.

[bluemagic]

I'm a really big fan of Luke, and I really hope he stays (I think its getting more and more unlikely though) but if he goes I don't think Schmidt should play him that much for the rest of the season. If he going you might as well through guys like Carr, Conway or Kearney in there

[tones]

Clearly Joe Scmhidt, who works with him on a close-to-daily basis and knows a hell of alot more about the game than any poster here, rates him. Now that for me would count for something.
He will get his form, and was during the season (he's spent nearly a third of his pro career on the physio bed),.......I just pray to God it is with Leinster and not in France where he can do damage to us in the HCup or is then ignored for international recognition.