2013 Heineken Cup Draw

[Vamos los azules]

The more I look at those pools the more I think there has to be something fundamentally wrong with the seeding. It just doesn't seem right that the French champions, the Pro 12 champions and the English runner-up can all end up in one group.

And before anyone points out it's based on European rankings I'll also throw in that it dawned on me (after trying to explain how it works to someone I work with who doesn't follow rugby apart from the Ireland team who wondered "why so many French teams are in Tier 4") that they are a bit of a farce when some teams are guaranteed to be in the Heineken Cup every year and others might do 3 years in the Amlin to every 1 in the Heineken and so obviously their ranking points take a hit.

[[Jackass]]

I've a feeling it will be, in chronological order:-
Exeter (H)
Scarlets (A)
Clermont (H)
Clermont (A)
Scarlets (H)
Exeter (A)

Put the Clermont away game first in the head to head and I'd say that'd be the perfect sort of arrangement.

[suisse]

Maybe it's just my imagionation but it seems like there are fewer and fewer 'interesting' ties. With relegation not a certainty in England (depsite using it as a stick to beat the PRO12) we keep seeing the same clubs playing against eachother.

Edinburgh v Racing again. Munster ans Sarries played in 2008 but that was ages ago. I believe this is Munter's first trip to Scotland?

Treviso v Leicester v Ospreys is a regular enough grouping now.

Quins and Connacht renew their Amlim and HCUP rivalry. Zebre wtf

Ulster v Sanints in a one-off QF in 2011, but not regular.

Leinster v Clermont again. We had Llanelli in 2010. Exeter exciting enough.

Cardiff v Toulon like the AMlin final a few years ago.

[Oldschool]

Maybe it's just my imagionation but it seems like there are fewer and fewer 'interesting' ties. With relegation not a certainty in England (depsite using it as a stick to beat the PRO12) we keep seeing the same clubs playing against eachother.

Edinburgh v Racing again. Munster ans Sarries played in 2008 but that was ages ago. I believe this is Munter's first trip to Scotland?

Treviso v Leicester v Ospreys is a regular enough grouping now.

Quins and Connacht renew their Amlim and HCUP rivalry. Zebre wtf

Ulster v Sanints in a one-off QF in 2011, but not regular.

Leinster v Clermont again. We had Llanelli in 2010. Exeter exciting enough.

Cardiff v Toulon like the AMlin final a few years ago.

It seems also to be very difficult for the Championship teams, having gained promotion on field, to then qualify for it off field.
Court cases been a regular feature.
Is the HEC becoming a tired competition? The ALL-IRELAND and ALL-FRANCE finals did't help.

[mikerob]

The more I look at those pools the more I think there has to be something fundamentally wrong with the seeding. It just doesn't seem right that the French champions, the Pro 12 champions and the English runner-up can all end up in one group.

And before anyone points out it's based on European rankings I'll also throw in that it dawned on me (after trying to explain how it works to someone I work with who doesn't follow rugby apart from the Ireland team who wondered "why so many French teams are in Tier 4") that they are a bit of a farce when some teams are guaranteed to be in the Heineken Cup every year and others might do 3 years in the Amlin to every 1 in the Heineken and so obviously their ranking points take a hit.

An alternative way of doing the seeding could be to use a ranking system like http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php

In this, all games (European and domestic league) are used to determine the ranking. I don't know exactly how they do the sums, but I think it is some sort of points exchange system where you gain points by beating teams ahead of you in the rankings.

Based upon this, the 4 tiers would have been:
Tier 1: Leinster, Leicester, Toulouse, Clermont, Toulon, Ospreys
Tier 2: Munster, Biarritz, Quins, Saracens, Glasgow, Saints
Tier 3: Montpellier, Ulster, Castres, Scarlets, Racing, Exeter
Tier 4: Cardiff, Edinburgh, Sale, Connacht, Treviso, Zebre

This ranking has boosted teams with better league form while teams who have done well in Europe but indifferently in the league (Ulster, Cardiff, Edinburgh) all drop down one or two tiers.

You can do any amount of tweaking with this type of system. For example, a greater weighting for European games or include a league strength weighting as well.

[Vamos los azules]

An alternative way of doing the seeding could be to use a ranking system like http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php

In this, all games (European and domestic league) are used to determine the ranking. I don't know exactly how they do the sums, but I think it is some sort of points exchange system where you gain points by beating teams ahead of you in the rankings.

Based upon this, the 4 tiers would have been:
Tier 1: Leinster, Leicester, Toulouse, Clermont, Toulon, Ospreys
Tier 2: Munster, Biarritz, Quins, Saracens, Glasgow, Saints
Tier 3: Montpellier, Ulster, Castres, Scarlets, Racing, Exeter
Tier 4: Cardiff, Edinburgh, Sale, Connacht, Treviso, Zebre

This ranking has boosted teams with better league form while teams who have done well in Europe but indifferently in the league (Ulster, Cardiff, Edinburgh) all drop down one or two tiers.

You can do any amount of tweaking with this type of system. For example, a greater weighting for European games or include a league strength weighting as well.

That's interesting to see how it works out that way. It definitely looks a better balance than the actual tiers. Presumably Biarritz would have drawn Ospreys, Exeter and Zebre if those had been in place though

If they're revisiting the whole set-up of the European competitions I wonder if they'll have a look at the ranking system as well. I can see definite merit (and I would imagine the top French and English sides would as well) to there being some benefit from finishing at the top of the domestic leagues, particularly when the argument is that the French and English sides have to worry about where they finish in the league and the likes of Edinburgh and Zebre just stroll into the competition for being from the countries that they are.

[domhnallj]

I've a feeling it will be, in chronological order:-
Exeter (H)
Scarlets (A)
Clermont (H)
Clermont (A)
Scarlets (H)
Exeter (A)

Put the Clermont away game first in the head to head and I'd say that'd be the perfect sort of arrangement.

Anyone know when the schedule for the games will be announced? It would be nice to be able to figure out whether I can make it to France or not.

[icebaby]

I've a feeling it will be, in chronological order:-
Exeter (H)
Scarlets (A)
Clermont (H)
Clermont (A)
Scarlets (H)
Exeter (A)

Put the Clermont away game first in the head to head and I'd say that'd be the perfect sort of arrangement.

Anyone know when the schedule for the games will be announced? It would be nice to be able to figure out whether I can make it to France or not.

Just the weekends are on the ERC site - just noticed it today.

[mfjoc]

Anyone know when the schedule for the games will be announced? It would be nice to be able to figure out whether I can make it to France or not.

Just the weekends are on the ERC site - just noticed it today.[

Which weekends? Couldn't find it myself.

[cormac]

Round 1: 12-14 Oct
Round 2: 19-21 Oct
Round 3: 7-9 Dec
Round 4: 14-16 Dec
Round 5: 11-13 Jan
Round 6: 18-20 Jan

[elfan]

Actual dates for Rounds 1 to 4 were released during week of July 18th last year. I remember because I was in hols and couldn't access interweb and missed the cheap flights to bristol for Bath match.

[simonokeeffe]

My argument against factoring domestic league placings into H Cup seedings is then you get the teams that patently didnt give a monkeys about Europe or at best only winning their home games eg Bourgoin, Castres to focus on their league getting higher seedings than they deserve

Then you get a whole extra can of worms of what leagues are worth what points (coming from English and French teams)

As the system stands it rewards the teams that compete/make an effort in Europe and/or have a well connected former fullback/president of the club

I admit it makes it harder for form teams eg Saracens but it stops nouveau riche clubs like Toulon/RMP doing a Man City on it

[mikerob]

There are going to be pros and cons with any ranking system. The Eurotable rankings go back for 30 games, about one season, while the ERC rankings go back 4 years.

A "league strength coefficient" is also used by UEFA for their ranking and seeding and is based upon number of wins by teams from the league in European competitions.

[ribs]

The ranking system is as good as any other I think. It is the stupid draw rules that English/French etc. teams have to be kept apart that is making it predictable and repetitive.

[OTT]

The ranking system is as good as any other I think. It is the stupid draw rules that English/French etc. teams have to be kept apart that is making it predictable and repetitive.

I dont like the points that Amlin teams get towards rankings. If you win it you are rewarded with a place in the Heineken Cup and a nice shiny trophy that should be enough incentive.

No Amlin points would have seriously changed the make up and seedings of the Biarritz, Harlequins and Connacht group for the better who have all benefitted by picking up cheap ranking points in a 2nd rate comp. imo

[StrangeButBlue]

The ranking system is as good as any other I think. It is the stupid draw rules that English/French etc. teams have to be kept apart that is making it predictable and repetitive.

I dont like the points that Amlin teams get towards rankings. If you win it you are rewarded with a place in the Heineken Cup and a nice shiny trophy that should be enough incentive.

No Amlin points would have seriously changed the make up and seedings of the Biarritz, Harlequins and Connacht group for the better who have all benefitted by picking up cheap ranking points in a 2nd rate comp. imo

Winning an Amlin group to get points seems fair enough to me - When Connacht won their group it was a well earned reward.
I have a problem with rewarding a single point to teams that come last in a HC group which they didn't need to qualify for - eg Italy / Scotland and Winner country teams.

[OTT]

The ranking system is as good as any other I think. It is the stupid draw rules that English/French etc. teams have to be kept apart that is making it predictable and repetitive.

I dont like the points that Amlin teams get towards rankings. If you win it you are rewarded with a place in the Heineken Cup and a nice shiny trophy that should be enough incentive.

No Amlin points would have seriously changed the make up and seedings of the Biarritz, Harlequins and Connacht group for the better who have all benefitted by picking up cheap ranking points in a 2nd rate comp. imo

Winning an Amlin group to get points seems fair enough to me - When Connacht won their group it was a well earned reward.
I have a problem with rewarding a single point to teams that come last in a HC group which they didn't need to qualify for - eg Italy / Scotland and Winner country teams.

The Italian teams would probably do better ranking points wise if they started in the Amlin as they would be alot more competitive.....anyway getting one point every season isnt gonna change their seedings that gives them an acumulative total of 4 year on year and Connacht didnt have to qualify for the HCup the season gone or the one coming either they got there off the back of Leinster winning the Cup but can use the points they gained from Amlin.

I always want Connacht to do well and think they get a very hard time but I cant say the Amlin points are a good thing just because on this occasion it would benefit someone who I want to do well. If I was like that id be English not Irish wouldnt I

[mikerob]

Keeping teams from the same country apart is fair enough, I think. With a totally open draw it is inevitable that some groups would be stacked with teams from the same league and some groups wouldn't have any teams from a league. A big attraction of the HEC is playing teams that you don't often play against (ok, it doesn't seem to be working in the case of Leinster and Clermont but you get my drift...)

I think all Irish teams enjoy putting one over against the English, and without an English team in each group, you could go for years without meeting one.

On the Amlin, I suspect one of the things the ERC will do is try and boost the status of the competition. The prize money for the Amlin is pitiful compared to the HEC and it doesn't seem right that a team like Aironi can come 12th of their league, gets automatic qualification for the HEC and get a ranking point just for taking part while, for example, an English team can come 7th in the AP, just miss out qualification and then need to win their ACC group to get ranking points.

[AdamK]

It'd be interesting if they brought in a thing where Tier 1 and Tier 2 teams that have played each other in the same pool within the last 2 seasons cannot be put in the same pool again. Without doing the maths I think that's possible. I stand to be corrected tho..

[mikey]

Round 1: 12-14 Oct
Round 2: 19-21 Oct
Round 3: 7-9 Dec
Round 4: 14-16 Dec
Round 5: 11-13 Jan
Round 6: 18-20 Jan

Could you point me at the link to the HC site where these are - cant see them anywhere!