Standards of Refereeing

[mikey]

Driven in part by what I thought was a terrible performance by all of the officials last night, I just wondered who actually oversees their quality ?

We have citings on players, so what about the refs?

Players and coaches have to retain a diplomatic silence, but there has to be a mechanism to hold officials to account.

The game can and does change on bad or missed calls by the officials - Obviously players get brought to book over things that officials miss, so who challenges the officials ??

Now, I'll admit to being one eyed on occasions !! So what I'd like to understand is why things were given - what did the ref see, why was something a penalty or not?

Do refs have to give a report after the game ? If so, who sees this ? Do the teams get any kind of debriefing ??

Clancy has a poor track record - but he is not alone and our wonderful game deserves better.

[domhnallj]

The league has a reputation of poor refing standards and it has been commented on for years. Clancy can ruin a game just by looking at it but so can most of the others - Nigel can't be everywhere.

[mikey]

The league has a reputation of poor refing standards and it has been commented on for years. Clancy can ruin a game just by looking at it but so can most of the others - Nigel can't be everywhere.

Nigel is not above the bonkers either - none are and I appreciate it's a difficult job too - but I'd like to see some accountability and consistency. Must be very hard for the players

[Dave Cahill]

The problem isn't the league, the problem is the standard of referees being produced in the countries that make up the league. The league isn't responsible for George Clancy being a thundering disgrace and a blight on the game who has ruined every match hes participated in. Most of the refs in the league, with the exception of Clancy, are okay. Some are better than others, but they are all at least equitable and most importantly consistant.

[ceemec]

There are reviews and appraisals of the referees but Clancy seems immune to them. He has made multiple high profile screw ups at this stage and still remains untouched in his position. A referee that once had to lock himself into a dressing room for his own safety is not someone who inspires confidence. Screwed Ulster as much as us though.

On a tangent, I was surprised he was awarded the game. Leinster and Ulster is a premium game and a top of the table clash between the most recent HEC finalists. For these types of game in the past, they've brought in outside referees from England and France. I don't know why they didn't do it yesterday. Oh what I would have given for Poite with the way the scrums were going at one point!

[RavenhillRaider]

Referees are regularly assessed at matches, and can be promoted to higher profile games or demoted to lower leagues depending on their aptitude. But the problem is there are not enough refs at all levels. so clancy could be demoted to AIL, but who do you replace him with? Was frustrating to watch last nite. Oh check out the leinster ARLB , http://www.arlb.ie/ lots of info on officials and you can pose questions to them.

[mikey]

Referees are regularly assessed at matches, and can be promoted to higher profile games or demoted to lower leagues depending on their aptitude. But the problem is there are not enough refs at all levels. so clancy could be demoted to AIL, but who do you replace him with? Was frustrating to watch last nite. Oh check out the leinster ARLB , http://www.arlb.ie/ lots of info on officials and you can pose questions to them.

Good info - will check that out. I'm certainly no expert and would like to watch with a more educated view regarding the laws (mind you it's hard not to just let the one eyed Leinster nut out that's not far from the surface)

[simonokeeffe]

maybe IRUPA/IRFU should actively encourage more retired players into refereeing
not saying itd be perfect as for every Rolland and Jackson there's a Lacey and one or more Changlangs
but theyd have more respect of and empathy for the players, be used to atmosphere/occassion and theres a perennial flow of articles on players having limited post playing career rugby options

[ceemec]

I actually think Lacey is one of the best referees around. Brilliant communicator and has fast tracked his way all the way up to top tier internationals last year deservedly. No referee is going to be flawless but he's generally quite consistent and lets the players know exactly what he wants.

[simonokeeffe]

I actually think Lacey is one of the best referees around. Brilliant communicator and has fast tracked his way all the way up to top tier internationals last year deservedly. No referee is going to be flawless but he's generally quite consistent and lets the players know exactly what he wants.

I'll admit I havent seen him this season so if he has improved thats great, and not just cos it reinforces my argument
He had some shockers early doors especially Saints v Castres
remember Trevor Brennan calling him the dirtiest referee he ever played against

[Xanthippe]

I think Leighton Hodges has been impressive this season - wonder if he was trained by Nigel. Do they do that? Do they ask experienced refs to coach the younger lads coming through?

[simonokeeffe]

I think Leighton Hodges has been impressive this season - wonder if he was trained by Nigel. Do they do that? Do they ask experienced refs to coach the younger lads coming through?

hes prob third best celtic ref after nige and alain
Nige is always tweeting about ref coaching classes/seminars and the like so he probably did at some point
plus being sound bloke he is cant see him not giving emerging refs advice

[johng]

Thing about it is. It's all subjective. Rolland is detested by kiwis, brits, and don't even start on the Welsh. Yet we think he is one of the best.
Nige gets called a plonker at least as much as he is praised. In Wales too.

It's a funny old game and there are always several infringements at every breakdown.

[Dave Cahill]

I think Leighton Hodges has been impressive this season - wonder if he was trained by Nigel. Do they do that? Do they ask experienced refs to coach the younger lads coming through?

hes prob third best celtic ref after nige and alain
Nige is always tweeting about ref coaching classes/seminars and the like so he probably did at some point
plus being sound bloke he is cant see him not giving emerging refs advice

Also, whilst he won't discuss specific incidents, if you have a question about the laws and tweet it to him, he'll pretty much always get back to you.

Which in itself is pretty cool if you think about, you have a question and a top international referee will answer it for you.

[red49]

Consistency is the best you can hope for when rules are to be applied by refs . I would think every team manipulates this though be looking at particular refs and saying well we can get away with so and so because this ref allows it .players have off days so expecting referees to be perfect all the time will never happen.the strangest decision by Clancy last night was taken after he blew the full time whistle . He allowed himself to be pressured by Leinster players to check the grounding or not of the ball . I don't blame the Leinster players I blame him for doing so .

[fourthirtythree]

Ulster fans behind me were complaining about that also. Leo is really persuasive on this issue and has form in getting the ref to check after blowing the whistle. What I find stranger is his refusal to do so with a disputed grounding that he was not actually in a position to see.
I don't know whether it was grounded as I haven't watched it back. Thing is, neither did he.

Best was also very persuasive with Clancy last night as the lack of cards until the TJ forced his hand was laughable. Three penalties on the same play, inside the five metres and no card. The first was blatant, let alone...

That said some people around me were angry after the whistle and I couldn't feel the same way. Sure the ref was comical at the end but a couple of the penalties he awarded us I had a good view of and they were really, really harsh.

As for penalty tries off scrums: I'm glad they ve stopped handing them out like confetti. It was a joke before Christmas. Jamie got the ball out of the scrum towards the end because he knew a penalty was unlikely. Some refs are playing it that way now. Is it any worse than Poites constant award of penalties to whoever happens to be going forwards?

[rooster]

On a tangent, I was surprised he was awarded the game. Leinster and Ulster is a premium game and a top of the table clash between the most recent HEC finalists. For these types of game in the past, they've brought in outside referees from England and France. I don't know why they didn't do it yesterday. Oh what I would have given for Poite with the way the scrums were going at one point!

We have Poite for the Sarries match so that would not have been sanctioned, we would have totally wiped you out with him though as it is rumoured he wears a pair of Ulster pyjamas, just ask the Munsterfans !
The man even told Geordan Murphy he was enjoying the Leicester match at Ravenhill when they were getting thumped.

[rooster]

I think Leighton Hodges has been impressive this season - wonder if he was trained by Nigel. Do they do that? Do they ask experienced refs to coach the younger lads coming through?

Met Hodges a few years ago in Parma when he was on the whistle for Parma v Stade Francais he had Phil Fear and another Welsh ref assisting and at that stage they tipped him as the replacement for Owens for internationals, seems to be they all mentor each other but it is just like any profession that some are better than others and only a few will ever make top grade.

[simonokeeffe]

Thing about it is. It's all subjective. Rolland is detested by kiwis, brits, and don't even start on the Welsh. Yet we think he is one of the best.
Nige gets called a plonker at least as much as he is praised. In Wales too.

It's a funny old game and there are always several infringements at every breakdown.

think the SANZARs hate NH refs in general (Kiwis especially as they stand up to them) as theyre not used to their style
Rolland and Nige seem to be the most highly rated/respected by the players
scary thing is I once chatted with Leo, refs came up, I poured scorn on Shitehouse and he said he wasn't the worst of them

[suisse]

Rolland - Yet we think he is one of the best.

I would think that is not the case anymore. Rolland was the best referee in the world from 2007 to 2012. He got the top gigs - World Final and HEC Finals plus big matches in Europe and Southern Hemisphere - but his performances have declined since then. Sometimes I wonder did the the fall out from Sam Warburton's red card affect him. I consider myself very critical of referees here but I thought the HT and FT analysis on ITV were absolutely appalling for a decision that was ultimately correct. It is hard to know what damage Laurence Dallaglio and Francois Pienaar did to Rolland's reputation, state of mind and the prospects for future referess wanting such a difficult, and high publicity job. Imagine a 19 year old reffing AIL rugby and sees a referee making a correct call according to the rules but then getting witch hunted in such a dreadful manner?

Nige gets called a plonker at least as much as he is praised. In Wales too.

I am amazed he was never hosed down for some of his on-field antics. I get the feeling Nigel is very likable guy if you know him and he does have a sense of humour. But he has re-written all his own hand signals and anyone who was thought the IRFU refereeing course by David Keane - or others - will know that what he does is a bit random. The dressing down in the Scarlets - Leinster game and the "This is not soccer" telling off were for the TV audience and nothing more.

Normally, if I see Nigel is reffing a Leinster or Ireland game I feel a little more at ease but he's still not a flawless referee. His arrogant questioning of Liam Toland's credentials was rather baffling when Toland, one of the most incisive writers (when he abandons his army rhetoric) was absolutely right to question Owens's calls in a game. Owens will never admit it, but his "Who is this guy" remark is hilarious given Toland achieved a lot more as aplayer than Owens could ever dream of.

think the SANZARs hate NH refs in general (Kiwis especially as they stand up to them)

Nigel Owens' performance in the QF between NZ and Argentina was the worst piece of officiating I'd ever seen, until the Final. There were 2 breakdowns that day. One Argentina were allowed to compete at (their own ball) and one where they were told to stay a long way away (NZs ball). In a perfect world, he would have been removed from duty for the remainder of the tournament.