Leinster v. Castres

[tones]

The thing I like about Madigan is that he has been systematically addressing the elements that people have been critical of. Over the last 18 months his place kicking, line kicking & defense have come on leaps and bounds. Towards the end of last year his Game Mgt was improving and I'd expect it to kick on this year. He did have the Munster opportunity and he was certainly not the reason for the defeat, just as Gopperth was not the reason we lost in Glasgow.
You can't help feeling that the Irish Player Management Program has had an impact in the lack of opportunities he has had at 10 this year. The irony is that it will ultimately hurt his prospects for improvement both for Leinster and potentially Ireland

Very valid point, Trapper. There's no doubt Madigan is improving and there's an argument for saying he's already better than Gopperth. I don't buy into that argument on the basis of the season so far, but I don't think there's much more than a gnat's dick in it. What gets me worked up is the idea that picking Gopperth is somehow a "cop-out" or a typical play-not-to-lose strategy, when he's been a bit of a revelation as an attacking outhalf so far. No question, Madigan will score more tries than Gopperth over a 10 game stretch. Leinster might score more tries over a 10-game stretch with Madigan on board, but we would probably lose one or two we should have won.

That's the bit Madigan has to improve on. Realistically, he'll only improve while playing, so I'm not up for leaving him out in the cold. But he has to figure out how to steer the ship through the icebergs, as well as going engines full ahead.

Pretty much Jezzer, pretty accurate reflection there. I said it from the start, Gopperth was a very, very good bit of business.
We're lucky to have both fighting it out. Will drive them on.

[Edna Kenny]

It's not that dissimilar from the Healy VDM situation a couple of years ago, competition is good for players and good for the team. We're 6 games into the season, going into last week Gopperth had 3 starts at 10 and Madigan had 2. MOC made a selection that he believed would win against Ospreys which they did. Whether Gopperth was the reason for the win is debatable, if Madigan had played they may have also won, who knows? I don't envy MOC's position, he's new to the head coach role and is expected to keep up the extremely high standards. From his point of view I would say he is less concerned about developing players right now than he is about winning matches. It's a long season and everyone gets a go if they're good enough.

[Raydollard]

Look up the dictionary for journeyman. It is not like peripatetic. It may indeed be as near to cormulent as Em Biggens (a fine girl) is.

[Raydollard]

sorry meant to write cromulent.

[Laighindown]

Look up the dictionary for journeyman. It is not like peripatetic. It may indeed be as near to cormulent as Em Biggens (a fine girl) is.

Journeyman has a few interpretations. Which do you mean? Sporting context usually implies the meaning of 'gun for hire' or 'mercenary' - someone hired for short periods of time to do a job. Other interpretations include being competent if not proficient, and also being simply qualified to work at a trade under supervision.

All of which are off the mark for a player with a decent record given a two year contract to play rugby at number 10 for Leinster. If Madigan is good enough, he will prevail and claim the jersey. No need to slag off his competition within the team.

I don't mind which of them is selected for Saturday as long as we win the game. Most likey Gopperth will start, and if we have built a lead by the 50th or 60th minute, Madigan may come on to chase the bonus. Maybe Reddan and Madigan will start with the intention of running Castres ragged from the off. Hopefully MOC has a horses for courses approach in mind, Castres could well be there for the taking on Saturday with a strong running game.

[Flash Gordon]

The thing I like about Madigan is that he has been systematically addressing the elements that people have been critical of. Over the last 18 months his place kicking, line kicking & defense have come on leaps and bounds. Towards the end of last year his Game Mgt was improving and I'd expect it to kick on this year. He did have the Munster opportunity and he was certainly not the reason for the defeat, just as Gopperth was not the reason we lost in Glasgow.
You can't help feeling that the Irish Player Management Program has had an impact in the lack of opportunities he has had at 10 this year. The irony is that it will ultimately hurt his prospects for improvement both for Leinster and potentially Ireland

Very valid point, Trapper. There's no doubt Madigan is improving and there's an argument for saying he's already better than Gopperth. I don't buy into that argument on the basis of the season so far, but I don't think there's much more than a gnat's dick in it. What gets me worked up is the idea that picking Gopperth is somehow a "cop-out" or a typical play-not-to-lose strategy, when he's been a bit of a revelation as an attacking outhalf so far. No question, Madigan will score more tries than Gopperth over a 10 game stretch. Leinster might score more tries over a 10-game stretch with Madigan on board, but we would probably lose one or two we should have won.

That's the bit Madigan has to improve on. Realistically, he'll only improve while playing, so I'm not up for leaving him out in the cold. But he has to figure out how to steer the ship through the icebergs, as well as going engines full ahead.

Think you're judging Madigan harshly on one bad game at outhalf vs 2 seasons of successful progress (he wasn't the only one who had a shocker vs Munster). Fair enough Gopperth controlled the game and we played the game plan with excellence. Did our backs look like scoring tries against a side with a very poor defensive record this year? Not really. Madigan is a lad that's been progressing to become our player of the season and an Irish international. Jimmy Gopperth is 30 years old and has either failled at super rugby or played bottom of the table/division 2 rugby in England. He defines journeyman. Has he done well for us since joining? Yep,he's certainly exceeded my expectations but given a choice between our player of the year and a 30 year old who never really made it, I'd go up and coming Irish international every time.

[dingodublin]

only 280 tickets left on TM. Looks like a strong crowd will be in attendance without having to resort to tickets for a fiver like our Nigel Wray friends!

[Laighindown]

The thing I like about Madigan is that he has been systematically addressing the elements that people have been critical of. Over the last 18 months his place kicking, line kicking & defense have come on leaps and bounds. Towards the end of last year his Game Mgt was improving and I'd expect it to kick on this year. He did have the Munster opportunity and he was certainly not the reason for the defeat, just as Gopperth was not the reason we lost in Glasgow.
You can't help feeling that the Irish Player Management Program has had an impact in the lack of opportunities he has had at 10 this year. The irony is that it will ultimately hurt his prospects for improvement both for Leinster and potentially Ireland

Very valid point, Trapper. There's no doubt Madigan is improving and there's an argument for saying he's already better than Gopperth. I don't buy into that argument on the basis of the season so far, but I don't think there's much more than a gnat's dick in it. What gets me worked up is the idea that picking Gopperth is somehow a "cop-out" or a typical play-not-to-lose strategy, when he's been a bit of a revelation as an attacking outhalf so far. No question, Madigan will score more tries than Gopperth over a 10 game stretch. Leinster might score more tries over a 10-game stretch with Madigan on board, but we would probably lose one or two we should have won.

That's the bit Madigan has to improve on. Realistically, he'll only improve while playing, so I'm not up for leaving him out in the cold. But he has to figure out how to steer the ship through the icebergs, as well as going engines full ahead.

Think you're judging Madigan harshly on one bad game at outhalf vs 2 seasons of successful progress (he wasn't the only one who had a shocker vs Munster). Fair enough Gopperth controlled the game and we played the game plan with excellence. Did our backs look like scoring tries against a side with a very poor defensive record this year? Not really. Madigan is a lad that's been progressing to become our player of the season and an Irish international. Jimmy Gopperth is 30 years old and has either failled at super rugby or played bottom of the table/division 2 rugby in England. He defines journeyman. Has he done well for us since joining? Yep,he's certainly exceeded my expectations but given a choice between our player of the year and a 30 year old who never really made it, I'd go up and coming Irish international every time.

Of course Gopperth made it. He's playing for Leinster now.

Top scorer in English Premiership is hardly failure. Ignoring that and calling him a journeyman while promoting Madigan's achievements is silly in my view. They are both Leinster players contracted to play for us for the next two seasons. Yes, Madigan has shown great promise, but in professional sport you're not nor should you be handed a jersey without a fight. Last year's form is meaningless unfortunately. Rob Kearney went from ERC European player of the year in 2012 to having a lot of fans on this forum wanting to drop him in 2013. I'm a strong advocate of let Mad Dog fight his way out of this, we'll have a better player on our hands for the struggle.

[Cianostays]

We've got 2 quality 10's who will drive eachother on and help them improve their games. Very happy with the idea of rotating the 2 players. I'd suspect that Mads will start tomorrow with it being a home game. I feel he's better placed to get the backline firing. If Gopperth gets the nod, after his performance last week, I won't be complaining.

[Flash Gordon]

Think you're judging Madigan harshly on one bad game at outhalf vs 2 seasons of successful progress (he wasn't the only one who had a shocker vs Munster). Fair enough Gopperth controlled the game and we played the game plan with excellence. Did our backs look like scoring tries against a side with a very poor defensive record this year? Not really. Madigan is a lad that's been progressing to become our player of the season and an Irish international. Jimmy Gopperth is 30 years old and has either failled at super rugby or played bottom of the table/division 2 rugby in England. He defines journeyman. Has he done well for us since joining? Yep,he's certainly exceeded my expectations but given a choice between our player of the year and a 30 year old who never really made it, I'd go up and coming Irish international every time.

Of course Gopperth made it. He's playing for Leinster now.

Top scorer in English Premiership is hardly failure. Ignoring that and calling him a journeyman while promoting Madigan's achievements is silly in my view. They are both Leinster players contracted to play for us for the next two seasons. Yes, Madigan has shown great promise, but in professional sport you're not nor should you be handed a jersey without a fight. Last year's form is meaningless unfortunately. Rob Kearney went from ERC European player of the year in 2012 to having a lot of fans on this forum wanting to drop him in 2013. I'm a strong advocate of let Mad Dog fight his way out of this, we'll have a better player on our hands for the struggle.

He was brought in as cover I think.

Gopperth was leading scorer in that year but his team played dour rugby and hardly scored beyond what came from his boot (the Falcons were the second lowest scorers in the entire league with him as the playmaker at 10). He has won nothing, he never made it as a super rugby player and he drifted off into the second tier of english rugby - that's why he was brought in as a squad player at 30. He's a good squad player to have and his performances so far have been excellent but Madigan is a different class in my opinion.

Madigan has shown far more than promise, he's scored an incredible amount of tries - 4 times more than the Lion outside of him - he's a 90% kicker, his defensive work is excellent and that's what earned him Irish caps and our player of the season. That's way more than promise and unfortunately its way more than Jimmy Gopperth will ever achieve.

Anyway, O'Connor's call now and whoever plays Saturday, we obviously all want the 10 to win the game for us!

[scrum25]

Anyone have a link to watch match in france on Saturday. France 2 showing Montpellier - Ulster

Or does anyone know if they have red button equivalent?

[No23]

Maybe Madigan was carrying an injury last week.
It was somewhat strange that he was the only sub not to have a run.
Could have replaced RK or Darce. Other possibility is that MOC does not rate him as we do...

[fourthirtythree]

Maybe Madigan was carrying an injury last week.
It was somewhat strange that he was the only sub not to have a run.
Could have replaced RK or Darce. Other possibility is that MOC does not rate him as we do...

Maybe replacing Gopperth was not necessary nor sensible. The game was comfortable with him there, it might not have been without.

If MOC does not rate Madigan he would be a very strange, unlikely, coach for Leinster. Or any big team. Madigan is the business and would have been pushing Johnno hard this year.
Dundon wasn't on either was he? Cronin was having a stormer too. To my mind (as I said a few pages back) probably his best leinster game.
I'm guessing that no matter how good Jimmy "fan favourite" Gopperth or Sean "Centre" Cronin play this weekend they are getting the crook at no later than 60.

As was pointed out to us by the Falcons fans who stopped by, Jimmy is a LOT better than a bench warming solid player: he has a fantastic step and a fair bit of pace. Allied to that he has the kind of experience that Mads hasn't yet. Madigan may be disappointed at not starting last week and I'm sure he would have done well, perhaps excelled, but he has worked on any weakness he has and come out the other side a better player. He's a winner. That Gopperth may well get the nod this weekend is a great sign of the depth we are worried that we had lost.

[paddyor]

Maybe Madigan was carrying an injury last week.
It was somewhat strange that he was the only sub not to have a run.
Could have replaced RK or Darce. Other possibility is that MOC does not rate him as we do...

Or maybe MOC made a good call and left the OH who was controlling the game in situ because it didn't make sense to make a change when it wasn't called for. Towards the end of that game I didn't want to Madigan introduced, would of been like subbing Murray against France the way Kidney did last year in the 6N. The other substitutions were probably due to fatigue(Macken aside - Idon't know).

Madigan has shipped an unfair amount of slack(IMO) for the sh*te performance against Munster. We were worse against Glasgow and escaped with a bonus point courtesy of them not having a kicker. I don't think any of that had anything whatsoever to do with MOCs decision to leave Jimmy in place. It was his performance on the night. Ditto the other backs on the pitch. It was too tight to be changing things up just to give lads a run.

[jezzer]

Think you're judging Madigan harshly on one bad game at outhalf vs 2 seasons of successful progress (he wasn't the only one who had a shocker vs Munster). Fair enough Gopperth controlled the game and we played the game plan with excellence. Did our backs look like scoring tries against a side with a very poor defensive record this year? Not really. Madigan is a lad that's been progressing to become our player of the season and an Irish international. Jimmy Gopperth is 30 years old and has either failled at super rugby or played bottom of the table/division 2 rugby in England. He defines journeyman. Has he done well for us since joining? Yep,he's certainly exceeded my expectations but given a choice between our player of the year and a 30 year old who never really made it, I'd go up and coming Irish international every time.

Of course Gopperth made it. He's playing for Leinster now.

Top scorer in English Premiership is hardly failure. Ignoring that and calling him a journeyman while promoting Madigan's achievements is silly in my view. They are both Leinster players contracted to play for us for the next two seasons. Yes, Madigan has shown great promise, but in professional sport you're not nor should you be handed a jersey without a fight. Last year's form is meaningless unfortunately. Rob Kearney went from ERC European player of the year in 2012 to having a lot of fans on this forum wanting to drop him in 2013. I'm a strong advocate of let Mad Dog fight his way out of this, we'll have a better player on our hands for the struggle.

He was brought in as cover I think.

Gopperth was leading scorer in that year but his team played dour rugby and hardly scored beyond what came from his boot (the Falcons were the second lowest scorers in the entire league with him as the playmaker at 10). He has won nothing, he never made it as a super rugby player and he drifted off into the second tier of english rugby - that's why he was brought in as a squad player at 30. He's a good squad player to have and his performances so far have been excellent but Madigan is a different class in my opinion.

Madigan has shown far more than promise, he's scored an incredible amount of tries - 4 times more than the Lion outside of him - he's a 90% kicker, his defensive work is excellent and that's what earned him Irish caps and our player of the season. That's way more than promise and unfortunately its way more than Jimmy Gopperth will ever achieve.

Anyway, O'Connor's call now and whoever plays Saturday, we obviously all want the 10 to win the game for us!

"Taranaki raised former Wellington first five-eighth Jimmy Gopperth started all 12 games in his debut Hurricanes season in 2005 and amassed 139 points, including kicking several match winning penalties and one famous dropped goal to beat the Stormers 12-9 in just his 5th game. Another stellar 2006 followed, sharing the first-five duties with the returning David Holwell, adding another 81 points, and kicking a 50-metre penalty to edge out the Waratahs 16-14 in the semi-final. This form saw him make the Junior All Blacks later in the year.

In 2007, both Blair Stewart and Piri Weepu were variously preferred ahead of him, but by season’s end he had re-established himself at first five-eighth. On his return to the starting side against the Highlanders he scored a tremendous 50-metre solo try and was back sparking the backline at the end of the season. Gopperth passed 350 points for the Hurricanes in 2008 but ended the year on the bench, this time behind Willie Ripia.

Gopperth was just as prodigious for the Wellington Lions, making his first class debut in 2002 and amassing 422 points by the end of 2007. In the 2007 Air New Zealand Cup he scored 164 points, 43 more than the record 121 points he scored in 2006.

He wore the Hurricanes No. 10 jersey before the Lions jersey - all his Wellington appearances in 2003 and 2004 were as a substitute.

Previously, New Plymouth Boys High School educated Gopperth made the New Zealand Secondary Schools team in 2001, was a member of the World Cup winning U21 team in 2004 and spent two seasons in the Hurricanes Development side. He also starred for New Zealand Universities in 2004.

In 2008 he captained North Harbour in the NPC and played for the Blues in the Super 14 2009 before transferring to the Newcastle Falcons in England on a three-year deal to replace former English flyhalf Johnny Wilkinson who had moved to Toulon in France."

What a feckin journeyman....

And You seriously think I'm judging Madigan on one game? Jaysis. Madigan has game control issues. Always had. He's improving rapidly in a lot of ways, but right now Gopperth is doing it better. I'd have no issue in seeing Madigan start the Castres game, I can see the benefits, but this idea that going with Gopperth is some kind of cop out is way off.

Take a look at how he set up Kearneys try from under the posts. The vision, alignment, pace, fixing of the defender and pass are all flawless.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g3NQ2nrWp5Q

Oh, and he just got voted player of the month for Sept. By the fans.

[Morf]

In 2007, both Blair Stewart and Piri Weepu were variously preferred ahead of him, but by season’s end he had re-established himself at first five-eighth.

Pfft, give me 30 minutes and I could outlast Piri Weepu. Because he's fat. And a bit over-hyped. But mostly fat.

[suisse]

Pretty much Jezzer, pretty accurate reflection there. I said it from the start, Gopperth was a very, very good bit of business.
We're lucky to have both fighting it out. Will drive them on.

Agreed. I think most people on this website were happy->delighted (or somewhere in between) with this signing. It was those on other provincial message boards or in the print media who were not sure complimentary. Gopperth is a an extremely good fly-hlaf, with lots of experience scoring hundreds of points. His isn't old and we were never going to lose him, like Pienaar, for international call ups he was the perfect signing (of course, if IRFU rules were different and privicnes were allowed to offer more than the Union if they backed out in the negogiations, then it'd all be different).

However,

Think you're judging Madigan harshly on one bad game at outhalf vs 2 seasons of successful progress (he wasn't the only one who had a shocker vs Munster). Fair enough Gopperth controlled the game and we played the game plan with excellence. Did our backs look like scoring tries against a side with a very poor defensive record this year? Not really.

I agree with all of this. Established players sometimes put in crappy performances and no-one questions their position in the team. If Gopperth was selected to go to Ospreys to play a certain style that is going to win us the game (like Boss/Reddan recently) then I can understand it. Nothing wrong with making a few alterations for a tough away game. But I would definitely start Madigan v Castres. He's Leinster's first choice 10 for me and hasn't done enough wrong to get dropped at this stage. It has nothing to do with JG being a Kiwi recruited in the summer. IMO, Madigan is the best fly-half at Leinster.

[Castres]

By, a "midi olympique" newspaper of French rugby the compositions are: (approximative)

15. D. Kearney ; 14. McFadden,
13. Macken, 12. D’Arcy, 11. R. Kearney ;
10. Gopperth ou Madigan, 9. Boss ;
7. O’Brien, 8. Heaslip (cap.), 6. McLaughlin
ou Jennings ; 5. McCarthy, 4. Toner ; 3. Ross,
2. Cronin, 1. Healy.

Remplaçants : 16. Dundon, 17. McGrath,
18. Moore, 19. Roux ou McLaughlin,
20. Ruddock, 21. Reddan, 22. Madigan ou
Gopperth, 23. Fitzgerald.

ANd Castres i don't know if is exact ....maybe a surprise !
15. Dulin ; 14. Martial,
13. Cabannes, 12. Lamerat, 11. Evans ;
10. Tales (cap.), 9. Kockott ; 7. Bornman
or Wannenburg, 8. Claassen, 6. Diarra ;
5. Gray, 4. Samson ; 3. Peikrishvili,
2. Bonello, 1. Taumoepeau or Lazar.

Remplaçants : 16. Mach, 17. Lazar or
Taumoepeau, 18. Desroche, 19. Wannenburg
or Bornman, 20. Tomas, 21. Grosso, 22. Palis,
23. Wihongi.

[cormac]

By, a "midi olympique" newspaper of French rugby the compositions are: (approximative)

15. D. Kearney ; 14. McFadden,
13. Macken, 12. D’Arcy, 11. R. Kearney ;
10. Gopperth ou Madigan, 9. Boss ;
7. O’Brien, 8. Heaslip (cap.), 6. McLaughlin
ou Jennings ; 5. McCarthy, 4. Toner ; 3. Ross,
2. Cronin, 1. Healy.

Remplaçants : 16. Dundon, 17. McGrath,
18. Moore, 19. Roux ou McLaughlin,
20. Ruddock, 21. Reddan, 22. Madigan ou
Gopperth, 23. Fitzgerald.

ANd Castres i don't know if is exact ....maybe a surprise !
15. Dulin ; 14. Martial,
13. Cabannes, 12. Lamerat, 11. Evans ;
10. Tales (cap.), 9. Kockott ; 7. Bornman
or Wannenburg, 8. Claassen, 6. Diarra ;
5. Gray, 4. Samson ; 3. Peikrishvili,
2. Bonello, 1. Taumoepeau or Lazar.

Remplaçants : 16. Mach, 17. Lazar or
Taumoepeau, 18. Desroche, 19. Wannenburg
or Bornman, 20. Tomas, 21. Grosso, 22. Palis,
23. Wihongi.

They've mixed up their Kearneys. Rob will be at full-back, Dave on the left-wing.

[Alternative Ulster]

Jennings won't be at 6 either.