Time to go MOC

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Donny B.
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Re: Time to go MOC

Post by Donny B. »

ceemec wrote:
Donny B. wrote:We managed to turn things around in the second half of the season and win the league though so it wasn't all bad.

However the cr@p we've been served this season has been anything but effective and cohesive. Winning despite a massive error count sadly tells you more about the quality of teams you're playing than the quality of the rugby you're playing. We're succeeding despite the rugby we're playing, not because of it and if we keep up this standard we won't win anything and won't deserve to either.

Trying to pass off this chicken sh!t as chicken salad is just living in denial.
We turned things around in the second half as the games were easier. We had now HEC to expose us. We lost at home to Ulster. We scraped a win at home to Glasgow thanks to a late try. We beat them in the semi final as they missed a kick in the last minute to draw. We had a few great showings in the second half but there were still some really concerning showings that highlighted our shortcomings. We were anything but cohesive in those home games against Glasgow and Ulster. Ospreys threw in the towel in Dublin and didn't want to know in that game as we all remember, I'm sure.

If Ulster had their stadium built last season, we wouldn't have won the league last season, I believe. Would you have accepted the ACC from last season?
Ah come on. Ulster had their stadium built last week and still didn't win did they? As for last season, true, we weren't at the level of the previous two but it was still a lot better than what we've seen this season. And for the ACC, what was that again? :wink:
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johng
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Re: Time to go MOC

Post by johng »

neiliog93 wrote:Two broad camps here: Some people are definitely overreacting but I think others are underplaying (not denying) our shortcomings this year in response. An element of denial there.

The reality is that we've been generally poor this season but have gotten by because the standard of the Pro12 is pretty awful, and we have a few individuals who have made the difference.

I don't expect to win anything, I don't expect Joe Schmidt scintillating rugby, but I do expect better than we've put on this season (in terms of performances, ignores results). I'll repeat a point I've made many times - there's a Munster in 2009 feeling to this season. Good statistics but found out at the highest level and undoubtedly in decline. If we can salvage a Pro12 from the season like they did, I'll be happy.
This just about sums it up for me.

The sky is not actually falling, but the world has not been set on fire either. MOC = jury out......

A way to go now in the league off the back of this loss. We may need to beat Ulster in Ravers to stay top.

Bring it on. Let's see what we are made of.
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ceemec
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Re: Time to go MOC

Post by ceemec »

I'm not being obtuse whatsoever, Donny. You state that Cheika got better in defence and up front and we won silverware but you ignore the fact that our back play was essentially disregarded. The league winning season was the season where BOD famously didn't score a single try and we scored 7 tries in 6 HEC pool games. You asked a question and I answered it.

I clearly said that Schmidt was the one person that delivered results and performances. The others didn't. They either played attractive rugby and finished empty handed or played effective, ugly rugby and won.
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Re: Time to go MOC

Post by Keith »

johng wrote:
neiliog93 wrote:Two broad camps here: Some people are definitely overreacting but I think others are underplaying (not denying) our shortcomings this year in response. An element of denial there.

The reality is that we've been generally poor this season but have gotten by because the standard of the Pro12 is pretty awful, and we have a few individuals who have made the difference.

I don't expect to win anything, I don't expect Joe Schmidt scintillating rugby, but I do expect better than we've put on this season (in terms of performances, ignores results). I'll repeat a point I've made many times - there's a Munster in 2009 feeling to this season. Good statistics but found out at the highest level and undoubtedly in decline. If we can salvage a Pro12 from the season like they did, I'll be happy.
This just about sums it up for me.

The sky is not actually falling, but the world has not been set on fire either. MOC = jury out......

A way to go now in the league off the back of this loss. We may need to beat Ulster in Ravers to stay top.

Bring it on. Let's see what we are made of.
I wouldn't mind coming 2nd if it meant we avoided playing Glasgow. I really want to cheer for them in the playoffs for once. It would be great for the league if Glasgow won the thing.
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Xanthippe
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Re: Time to go MOC

Post by Xanthippe »

johng wrote:
neiliog93 wrote:Two broad camps here: Some people are definitely overreacting but I think others are underplaying (not denying) our shortcomings this year in response. An element of denial there.

The reality is that we've been generally poor this season but have gotten by because the standard of the Pro12 is pretty awful, and we have a few individuals who have made the difference.

I don't expect to win anything, I don't expect Joe Schmidt scintillating rugby, but I do expect better than we've put on this season (in terms of performances, ignores results). I'll repeat a point I've made many times - there's a Munster in 2009 feeling to this season. Good statistics but found out at the highest level and undoubtedly in decline. If we can salvage a Pro12 from the season like they did, I'll be happy.
This just about sums it up for me.

The sky is not actually falling, but the world has not been set on fire either. MOC = jury out......

A way to go now in the league off the back of this loss. We may need to beat Ulster in Ravers to stay top.

Bring it on. Let's see what we are made of.
Interestingly Glasgow could end up doing us a couple of huge favours over the next two weeks.
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Donny B.
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Re: Time to go MOC

Post by Donny B. »

ceemec wrote:I'm not being obtuse whatsoever, Donny. You state that Cheika got better in defence and up front and we won silverware but you ignore the fact that our back play was essentially disregarded. The league winning season was the season where BOD famously didn't score a single try. You asked a question and I answered it.

I clearly said that Schmidt was the one person that delivered results and performances. The others didn't. They either played attractive rugby and finished empty handed or played effective, ugly rugby and won.
Was our back-play disregarded when we scored 4 tries in Edinburgh, 6 tries at home to Wasps and 3 tries in the semi v Munster in the season we won the HC?

Our backline didn't always function that season, true, but it wasn't because we weren't trying to score tries, now was it?

And your defence of MOC that the rubbish rugby he team are playing is some sort of plan really doesn't do him any favours to be honest.
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ceemec
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Re: Time to go MOC

Post by ceemec »

Donny B. wrote: Was our back-play disregarded when we scored 4 tries in Edinburgh, 6 tries at home to Wasps and 3 tries in the semi v Munster in the season we won the HC?

Our backline didn't always function that season, true, but it wasn't because we weren't trying to score tries, now was it?

And your defence of MOC that the rubbish rugby he team are playing is some sort of plan really doesn't do him any favours to be honest.
Do you think the tries in those games were anything to do with great back play or moments of individual skill? We scored one great try from a back line move against Munster and one against Edinburgh. Are we ignoring games against Edinburgh, Leicester, Wasps away and Quins where we scored a combined total of 1 try?

Are you saying you believe we aren't trying to score tries?

I've no idea where I stated anything close to MOC playing rubbish rugby equates to some plan.
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neiliog93
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Re: Time to go MOC

Post by neiliog93 »

We will need to win in Ravenhill to finish first I'd say....daunting task.
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Dave Cahill
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Re: Time to go MOC

Post by Dave Cahill »

Donny B. wrote: And your defence of MOC that the rubbish rugby he team are playing is some sort of plan really doesn't do him any favours to be honest.
The problem is though that we're not playing rubbish rugby, we're not playing any rugby at all due to basic incompetence. We can't pass the ball one to another, we aren't making tackles, we've seen human error and indiscipline destroy our lineout, our work at the breakdown, our defense. Whatever one might think of O'Connors tactical approach either way, the players also have to take responsibility for the failure to execute the most basic elements of their profession.
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No23
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Re: Time to go MOC

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I was thinking about what MOC has added or maintained at Leinster and the answer is zip!
Sure we lost some players from last year but we have also gained some including McCarthy,Gopperth and the South African ZK. Have any of these guys improved the essence of the team? Not really and that is the main issue I have with the coach.He has added no value to the team.Indeed if there was no coach there Leinster Rugby would probably have reached the QF of the HC and be in the top 4 of the Rabo. Most concerning is the fact that we have seen the performance of Madigan,KMcL,Macken,Cronin etc. diss improve Definitely time to go................
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ceemec
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Re: Time to go MOC

Post by ceemec »

I think MOC needs to review how he prepares the players though. It has been stated that he's more laid back in how he handles things. Perhaps a harsher hand is needed. If the players are allowed to lapse into bad habits and slack in concentration, maybe his approach needs to change. I don't think it's the central issue but I do think it's a factor.
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Re: Time to go MOC

Post by Keith »

No23 wrote:I was thinking about what MOC has added or maintained at Leinster and the answer is zip!
Sure we lost some players from last year but we have also gained some including McCarthy,Gopperth and the South African ZK. Have any of these guys improved the essence of the team? Not really and that is the main issue I have with the coach.He has added no value to the team.Indeed if there was no coach there Leinster Rugby would probably have reached the QF of the HC and be in the top 4 of the Rabo. Most concerning is the fact that we have seen the performance of Madigan,KMcL,Macken,Cronin etc. diss improve Definitely time to go................
Ive been happy with McCarthy. He was outstanding against NH in Franklins Gardens and without him we'd only have Leo and Toner.
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Dave Cahill
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Re: Time to go MOC

Post by Dave Cahill »

No23 wrote:I was thinking about what MOC has added or maintained at Leinster and the answer is zip!
Sure we lost some players from last year but we have also gained some including McCarthy,Gopperth and the South African ZK. Have any of these guys improved the essence of the team? Not really and that is the main issue I have with the coach.He has added no value to the team.Indeed if there was no coach there Leinster Rugby would probably have reached the QF of the HC and be in the top 4 of the Rabo. Most concerning is the fact that we have seen the performance of Madigan,KMcL,Macken,Cronin etc. diss improve Definitely time to go................
You'll be delighted so, as the coach who signed all three of those players you mentioned has indeed gone. His name was Joe Schmidt.
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Re: Time to go MOC

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I think that M Dawson signs all players that play with LR
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Dave Cahill
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Re: Time to go MOC

Post by Dave Cahill »

No23 wrote:I think that M Dawson signs all players that play with LR
The coach decides who is signed, Mick usually, though not always, does the deal and the Union say yea or nay.
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Re: Time to go MOC

Post by molloyjh »

Dave Cahill wrote:
Donny B. wrote: And your defence of MOC that the rubbish rugby he team are playing is some sort of plan really doesn't do him any favours to be honest.
The problem is though that we're not playing rubbish rugby, we're not playing any rugby at all due to basic incompetence. We can't pass the ball one to another, we aren't making tackles, we've seen human error and indiscipline destroy our lineout, our work at the breakdown, our defense. Whatever one might think of O'Connors tactical approach either way, the players also have to take responsibility for the failure to execute the most basic elements of their profession.
My take on this is that yes there's an element of responsibility that rests with the players on this one. But as soon as it becomes a regular issue the way it has the coaches have to step in and address it. Have they? And if so have they effectively? The answer to at least one of those is no. And that's when it becomes a coaching issue rather than a player issue.

The game at this level is essentially all about instinct. You don't have time to think. And instinct is born out of repetition. Replicate the conditions over and over until it's second nature. From what we're hearing about training I'm getting the impression there isn't the same focus on this as there was under Joe, which would explain the drop in accuracy levels. At some point the coaches have to realise that the drop has been too much and have to start refocusing on those basics more. Either they haven't, or they haven't done so properly. And that's on them.
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neiliog93
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Re: Time to go MOC

Post by neiliog93 »

Dave Cahill wrote:
Donny B. wrote: And your defence of MOC that the rubbish rugby he team are playing is some sort of plan really doesn't do him any favours to be honest.
The problem is though that we're not playing rubbish rugby, we're not playing any rugby at all due to basic incompetence. We can't pass the ball one to another, we aren't making tackles, we've seen human error and indiscipline destroy our lineout, our work at the breakdown, our defense. Whatever one might think of O'Connors tactical approach either way, the players also have to take responsibility for the failure to execute the most basic elements of their profession.
Fair point. Also, slight lack of desire tonight, which is the most concerning thing of all.
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Re: Time to go MOC

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Is there anything to be said for saying another mass?
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Re: Time to go MOC

Post by Dave Cahill »

molloyjh wrote: The game at this level is essentially all about instinct. You don't have time to think. And instinct is born out of repetition. Replicate the conditions over and over until it's second nature. From what we're hearing about training I'm getting the impression there isn't the same focus on this as there was under Joe, which would explain the drop in accuracy levels. At some point the coaches have to realise that the drop has been too much and have to start refocusing on those basics more. Either they haven't, or they haven't done so properly. And that's on them.
There are a couple of schools of thought on that one though. One is that they're professional rugby players, it should already be instinctive - they just need to work on patterns, systems, and fitness in training. Theres another that says they're professional rugby players, they're supposed to be fit, so all that should be worked on are skills, patterns and systems - and there are any number of shades between. Famously, Arsenal do no fitness work in training whatsoever - its up to the players to maintain their fitness to the standard Wenger requires

People are reading too much, or not enough, into what was said in that interview I think. IIRC the difference between the two coaches was that Joe kept training on the pitch short and intense - issues that came up were dealt with off the pitch in the offices, whereas Matt prefers to deal with issues that come up as they come up on the training pitch. There are arguments to be made either way. Nowhere was it said the training was in anyway substandard, just different.
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Re: Time to go MOC

Post by bluemagic »

As a long time Leinster fan I want Leinster to be playing attractive running rugby. It's in our DNA, it's the spirit of rugby in these parts and importantly as a rule we don't have a big team so we have to make up for it in flash and guile. In saying that there are times when teams have to be realistic and implement a game plan that will make them, regardless of the style in which it is done. My biggest issue with MOC is just that. The biggest game of the season, the one which he himself was looking at for weeks preceding the game even saying that a chunk of training time I the build up to the Munster game was devoted to practicing for toloun. I still haven't been able to find a single person who can explain to me what our game plan was that day, the weeks of planning for what? A few up and unders in nothing parts of the field and then when that failed what then? You have an undercooked out half, despite the weeks of planning, who even when he kicks into the corner with the tallest man in rugby we don't challenge the line outs? We don't slow them down at the ruck, we don't have any special backline moves, we just try and out bully the biggest bullies around with our sruhalf best suited to that on the bench.

I admit we were outplayed, that happens sometimes that has to be accepted. But we were f%~king smashed, the score lie flattered us, it was clear planned out rugby against headless chickens. I don't think we can compare MOC to joe constantly because that's like comparing every young centre to bod, but to my mind that was not a display that a coach of the best team in Europe should be allowed get away with
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