Time to go MOC

[neiliog93]

Quote me for posterity all you want mate. MOC looks likely to blunder us to a European 1/4 final and probably the Pro12 play-offs. We're unlikely to win either, especially the former, and with those results MOC probably won't be sacked. If our turgid displays affect out financial performance, yes, there's more likely to be a change of coach.

That change of coach brings better displays AND improved results. Quote that for posterity.

[cwebber82]

Tony Ward has a piece in tomorrows Independent telling Leinster fans to stop whining about MOC.

Might be interesting to see how he justifies MOC and his puke rugby.

[outcast eddie]

Tony Ward has a piece in tomorrows Independent telling Leinster fans to stop whining about MOC.

Might be interesting to see how he justifies MOC and his puke rugby.

Just trying to find an alternative angle, no doubt. MOC has lost the media battle, sure even the venerable George Hook was wondering how long MOC would last.

[goreyguy]

Jackman citing the lack of ambition in the way we playing being obvious.
One dimensional, lacking creativity/ingenuity in their attack.
Says we have two main tactics in the back, go wide and run out of room or go wide and then hit the inside pass to avoid running out of room.
Running lines and passing arent as good as they should be, playing too deep.
Would start at Madigan at 10.

[neiliog93]

Tony Ward has a piece in tomorrows Independent telling Leinster fans to stop whining about MOC.

Might be interesting to see how he justifies MOC and his puke rugby.

Might send him an email correcting him on his likely angle. The journos can be decent at replying to emails, be interesting to see what he says.

[suisse]

Tony Ward has a piece in tomorrows Independent telling Leinster fans to stop whining about MOC.

Might be interesting to see how he justifies MOC and his puke rugby.

More about the headline I guess;

Time for spoilt Leinster fans to get real and get behind their team

.... which he may not have had a say in.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/c ... 39699.html

Tony has form in this. I once remember he accused us of sitting behind an username as we criticised the national team, I think under Kidney's reign. What Wardy fails to recognise is we don't have the luxury of being paid by INM to write cr@p articles. If the sports editor threw some money at us, we could all do what Tony does. And probably a lot better. There's a private message function on this site. When you're looking for material for your next article Tony, maybe send a few people a message.

As for the article, what does the football reference have to do with anything? Is MOC abused like Wenger at a train station? No, he's not. Leinster fans are being asked to fork out up to 70 euro if they want to see this team in Europe. It is none of Tony's business how they show their discontent at the playing style and tactics of this team.

"Sometimes you really do despair." Indeed, your work is useless.

It is like the Munster article Thornley wrote a few weeks ago. Let's start attacking the fans!!!

[The Doc]

Dave - I agree that results are the objective measure of performance - not debating that. There are other objective measures that are indicators - ticket sales (and specifically season ticket sales) as well as ancilliary revenue can also be predictive measures of performance as they will impact ability to attract / retain talent (allowing for the fact the IRFU also provide a revenue stream).

However - as with any other "business" - there are also subjective measures such as the quality of the performance. So winning by a point against a team so low in the AP - while still 4 points - is a worry because it indicates we can't "step it up" when required e.g. a QF against tougher opposition. This qualitative element is an indicator of future - not a measure of past. It was no surprise last year to not be competitive in Toulon as (other than Northhampton away) we hadn't shown "form". Games we would have won easily we are now just getting over the line. Games we would have eeked out a win before we are losing.

My issue is that the performances don't indicate an intention to expand or use the team's potential. We are playing like a limited side with limited ambition. I would take more hope from a team trying to play well - even if there was some failure - because it would provide hope for development.

So if you were running things - do you wait until the backward looking imperical measure (i.e. trophies or lack of) go wrong before changing things or do you factor in subjective and objective forward indicators (i.e. perforamnces and falling revenues). Do we wait until we fall out of the top 6 in the Pro12, get beaten in a QF (or fail to make a QF from teh easiest group in years) - what is the tipping point for you. You don't state what your unacceptable "empirical measure" is

And while I don't personally think MOC and the coaching ticket have the capcity to adjust radically - I'm not saying that "changing things" means a change of staff. Maybe it can be done without that. But keeping doing what we are doing is not likely to result in anything other than what we have seen to date.

You ask , because these things are happening, what do we do? The thing is though, they're not happening, we're not falling out of the Pro12 top 6, we are currently rising and if we win on friday we'll be up to third. We're not failing to make it out of our european group, we're currently on track to get a quarter final.

My belief if that if we don't reach a Pro12 final and a European semi final then this season has not been successful and that unless he can persuade Mick Dawson that the injuries are an adequate offsetting factor then he'll be terminated

Well - what I, and many, are used to is a target for year end. But it isn't measured at year end - progress is measured every month and if it isn't happening after the first quarter I'm already taking corrective action - likewise after Q2 & Q3. By the time year end comes it's too late to start addressing it - in fact I know I'll be handed a P45 at Christmas and they will already have a replacement lined up.

We have regressed in the Pro12 and are struggling in an easy Euro group. I'm sure there are conversations being had among the coaching staff etc to address it but I haven't seen any evidence of change.

Having said that - I absolutely agree - nobody is going anywhere until the end of the season at the least. Who knows what is going on behind the scenes but waiting until the Summer (just before a World Cup) to "wait and see what happens" would be dissapointing

[berniemac67]

Tony Ward has a piece in tomorrows Independent telling Leinster fans to stop whining about MOC.

Might be interesting to see how he justifies MOC and his puke rugby.

Didn't he tell us to stop whining about DK too?

[berniemac67]

Tony Ward has a piece in tomorrows Independent telling Leinster fans to stop whining about MOC.

Might be interesting to see how he justifies MOC and his puke rugby.

Just trying to find an alternative angle, no doubt. MOC has lost the media battle, sure even the venerable George Hook was wondering how long MOC would last.

If George Hook is wondering then i might have to revise my view, because criticism from that numpty inevitably means something is going well.

[rosscarrick]

"The one gripe is for so-called Leinster fans to get behind their team and give the three-time winners in the midst of an injury crisis the support they deserve"

Were there fans cheering against Leinster in the Aviva.
He admits not knowing anything about MOC. And adds nothing about the tactics employed.


I can't help thinking if we were all on here saying everything is rosey, the headline would read: "Delusional Leinster fans Living in the Past"

[All Blacks nil]

The Leinster maul was excellent at the Stoop and punished Quins both physically and on the scoreboard.
You can be sure maul defence was top of the agenda for Quins when they analysed that particular game. Good coaching helped to negate the maul for the return game. Every December we see well coached sides correct aspects of their game during the back to backs. It has resulted in some astonishing turnarounds over the years.

Leinster's team of coaches seemed unable to improve any aspects of their game, particularly in the forwards where they went from bad to worse.
I'd obviously be join in the criticism of MOC, the head coach, and Caputo the scrum coach
People moan about Leinster's lack of basic skills yet the skills coach is untouchable. He gets the credit for Madigan's excellent placekicking but MOC is blamed for any shortcomings in the skills department.

I am also mystified how Cullen seems immune to any fault in Leinster's coaching performance. Yes he is a first year coach and that is not his fault. Maybe he should have gone the Axel route (u/20, A team, defence, forwards coach and his career obviously on an upward curve) or indeed Girv's route to start his coaching career. Jackman, and to a lesser extent Prendergast (AIL -Grenoble skills- Grenoble backs) and ROG are other coaches learning their trade to ready themselves for bigger and better things as coaches.

A poor appointment by Leinster and a potentially disastrous appointment for Cullen's career. A more staggered rise up the ranks might have been more beneficial for his longer term coaching career.
If he fails here where does he go?
His coaching CV won't be looking to good.
I wish him luck for the rest of the season and hope he can get to grips with the job. if MOC goes, will Leo be kept on in his current position by any new coach who's livlihood is partly dependent on assembling the best possible team of coaches.

[Donny B.]

Tony Ward has a piece in tomorrows Independent telling Leinster fans to stop whining about MOC.

Might be interesting to see how he justifies MOC and his puke rugby.

Didn't he tell us to stop whining about DK too?

His main point at the time was that Ireland simply didn't have players good enough or big enough for us to expect success at international level and to stop blaming Kidney and just accept our place in the world. Events since have somewhat contradicted that viewpoint.

Ward's a muppet, always has been too.

[JB1973]

The forwards have won enough ball in recent games (although the scrum did appear to go belly up in that second half) . Leinster real problem is the way the back line is playing or more aptly not playing. The lack of invention or set attacking moves is becoming more apparent each game, and till you get your RL bosh it up the middle centre in the team!


I think Leinster will make the HC Quarters and could still win the pro 12 play offs ( but both Munster and Glasgow will fancy their chances of beating you to that) but will that be enough to keep MOC in a job if this style of rugby keeps getting served up week in week out?

[Grumpy Old Man]

The Leinster maul was excellent at the Stoop and punished Quins both physically and on the scoreboard.
You can be sure maul defence was top of the agenda for Quins when they analysed that particular game. Good coaching helped to negate the maul for the return game. Every December we see well coached sides correct aspects of their game during the back to backs. It has resulted in some astonishing turnarounds over the years.

Leinster's team of coaches seemed unable to improve any aspects of their game, particularly in the forwards where they went from bad to worse.

It's not even game to game though.

We were in a better position at HT than FT in both matches. 9-9 at the Stoop, 11-0 in LR. In both cases we lost the second half. Quite dramatically in the latter case.

We seem to have lost the ability to mix and match, or play heads up rugby. Once the opposition figure us out, we have no Plan B.

Chris Robshaw was interviewed after the match in the Stoop and said that part of Quins gameplan was that they reckoned that we ran out of ideas after 2 or 3 phases. I think he was being kind!

[simonokeeffe]

As Indo is an official partner of Leinster I wouldnt expect them to come out with the coach should get the heave ho

[Aussiedub]

We've lost our 2 best ball carriers in the forwards (Healy and SOB) and our biggest ball carrier in the backs (Teo) which has a serious impact on our ability to get over the gainline.
We've lost Healy/Strauss/Moore which seriously impacts our scrummaging and bench depth in games as well as having McGrath playing too much with injury.
We've had McLaughlin/Jennings/Murphy/Ryan/SOB out in the backrow which again impacts depth off the bench and means guys get overplayed and loose impact.
Due to injuries to Darcy/Teo/Luke/DK/McFadden/Reid we've not had any continuity in the backline and again no depth off the bench at all in games.

If we had Healy/Strauss/Moore/SOB/Teo/DK coming off the bench in last 2 weeks it would have had massive impacts that we are not getting now.

If we look at the team JS had that won the 3rd HC who of our existing fit team would make that team??? Toner/Heaslip/RK of the current fit players on current form would be the only possibilities and even then that would be slim.

[jezzer]

Tony is full of it.

We don't know what we're doing out there. That's the complaint. It's not about trophies or Leinstertainment or bandwagoners or soccer culture.

The players look like they don't know what they're doing. I think Robshaw was being generous when he said we run out of ideas after 4 phases. It's more like 1 or 2. Our depth is wrong, our distribution of forwards in the line is wrong, our lines are wrong, our choices going into contact are wrong. Even then, if we still kept it all like it is but actually had everyone singing off the same hymnsheet, even then there might be some merit to this gameplan.

But we're not singing off the same sheet, we literally don't look like we know which direction and with what play we are going when we rock up to each breakdown. Half of the breakdowns needn't have happened in the first place. We're making it up as we go along and we're doing it with broken tools.

The results and the scrum issues have definitely been affected by injuries. But the in-game performance - regardless of the results - the way we try to move the ball has nothing to do with injuries.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

A few people have mentioned this already but even if Healy and SOB were fit I'd have zero confidence in us to actually know how to get them on the ball to make an impact.

Same with Luke at the weekend. Loads of us wanted him to move into the centre and whilst he was excellent in everything he did, we hadn't a notion how to put him into space.

How many times have we had pressure in the opposition 22 in the last few games? Injuries certainly affect performances, but they can only be so much of an excuse. How many people gave Ireland a chance against South Africa because of the injury list we had? And yet we blitzed them. There was very little fancy stuff in what we did, but the clarity in the gameplan and the accuracy and intensity in what we did were there for all to see.

[All Blacks nil]

The forwards have won enough ball in recent games (although the scrum did appear to go belly up in that second half) . Leinster real problem is the way the back line is playing or more aptly not playing. The lack of invention or set attacking moves is becoming more apparent each game, and till you get your RL bosh it up the middle centre in the team!


I think Leinster will make the HC Quarters and could still win the pro 12 play offs ( but both Munster and Glasgow will fancy their chances of beating you to that) but will that be enough to keep MOC in a job if this style of rugby keeps getting served up week in week out?

Ward today quoted that time held belief that forwards win matches and the backs decide the margin of victory. A time held belief because it has more or less stood the test of time.

This season's Leinster forwards have been bullied at the breakdown, passive in defence, insecure in possession andunsure at scrum and lineout time. With the notable exception of the Wasps and Scarlets games. the pack has sucked hind tit all season.

The backs have rarely received front foot ball and have struggled to achieve any cohesion as a result.
Jaime talks about painting nice pictures and influencing refs.
I say smash them, get up smash them again Treat the gain line and the tackle line like the tryline, Do not let them cross. knock them back, win collisions consistently especially in defence.

The uncompetitve nature of the PRO12 where only 7 teams count and the lack of quality in their CC group (leinster 5/12, Wasps 7/12, Harlequins 9/12 and Castres 14/14 in their domestic leagues and possibly only Leinster qualifying for Europe next season) has glossed over a turbulent period, but still the season and all its glories are still within their own grasp.

The pack need to replicate Jamie's consistent form (Leinster's only world class performer this season), follow his leadership and step up to the plate. Quit hiding behind the head coach's obvious deficiencies, take responsibilty and STAND UP AND FIGHT.

[The Doc]

... and STAND UP AND FIGHT.

I wonder could we make some sort of song about that....