Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

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ceemec
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by ceemec »

Tricky Dicky wrote: There's no problem with big players running straight and hard. We all loved Cian Healy running over Richie. The difference between Schmidt's teams doing it and MOC's Leinster doing it is that Leinster and Ireland under Schmidt played flat, had multiple dummy runners, and a lot of "animation" off the ball, as Murray Kinsella calls it. This meant that off quick ball the oppo defence was on the back foot and the contact area was easier to dominate. MOC's systems mean that individuals need to be much more powerful to get the same go-forward
Personnel has a fair amount to do with that. In Schmidt's time, SOB and Sexton were the two most influential players by far. The former was the main person for winning the collisions and getting us over the gain line, the latter for directing what we did with possession and how we exposed that gain. We had neither last season for the most part.

Things could be a lot better in attack under MOC, agreed, but there's an eagerness to fawn over anything Schmidt did in opposition to how MOC is attempting to get things done while turning a complete blind eye to the fact that Schmidt tried to do a lot of these things himself. He was very eager to have the big, line breaking carrier in midfield. He used crash ball at second receiver regularly. While there was often plenty of movement, there were plenty of times it was simply shovelled to D'Arcy and he was asked to pump the legs and crash it up just as himself and Marshall have done for Ireland in the past year. Goodman against Clermont was an example of a bloke several times in midfield just running direct and hard into contact without any real deviation or movement around him (and he made solid yards too on those carries).

I don't know on Te'o. I really don't and I doubt the vast majority of people here do either (although some will be waiting to hammer the poor bloke as soon as he slips up to give themselves a pat on the back). He might be useless. He might be great. But people jumping on the signing, criticising it and moaning about how Leinster are going to play before a match has even been played is pretty silly.
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by simonokeeffe »

ceemec wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:This guy is MOC's defining signing, scepticism aside hope it works out and he thrives

we dont get him for about 2 months so hopefully he can get some A games (at 12) and start at least at 12 while Darcy away for AIs
I'd rather see him go at 13, to be honest, in the way MOC used Anthony Allen and Tuilagi at Leicester. If the bloke is a success, I could see himself and Reid striking up a quite effective partnership.
I just reckon 12 would be an easier transition. Did SBW start at 12 or 13 for Toulon?
goreyguy wrote:its a good signing if he adapts well and we continue those tactics.. something i'm totally against..
I am hoping MOC will be able to expand and adapt after a season in charge and some more time with the players.

Teo playing A rugby? Jesus I hope not we have 6 talented young centres in the academy that need those development opportunities..
A team is to develop guys for the first team, it would be doing its job
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ceemec
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by ceemec »

simonokeeffe wrote: I just reckon 12 would be an easier transition. Did SBW start at 12 or 13 for Toulon?
SBW was primarily a 13 for Toulon although I'd say Tuilagi would be a better measure of how MOC might use a power guy in his back line.
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by goreyguy »

A team should be used to develop homegrown academy players not 28 year old rugby league players.
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by baaba maal »

Tricky Dicky wrote:
ceemec wrote:
wixfjord wrote:Do people actually forget how Schmidt teams played?!

Do people think it was all just sunshine rugby and throwing the ball around?
Indeed. Leinsterfans, thy name is revisionism.

Schmidt was a fan of a big, physical centre. Look at the centres he used at Clermont: Seremaia Baikeinuku, Aurelien Rougerie, Marius Joubert...all very physical guys as well as using monster wingers.

He didn't have that power at his disposal on arrival here so he tried hard to develop one in Eamon Sheridan who he gave an additional year in the academy to and also had starting for the senior side at 21 before injury took away his Leinster chances for good.

Then to fill the void, he went out and signed a Kiwi journeyman in Goodman who was over 100kg and dropped him into the HEC team for crunch games. And you know what? He was used as a crash ball merchant. Not only that, but he was bloody effective. Why? Cause it's a good tactic when it works. It makes holes for others to run through. It pulls the opposition defence out of position, putting them on the back foot and allows others to attack the out of sync defensive line.

The blanket mentality that we never tried crash ball or direct running is a fallacy. We repeatedly put SOB and Heaslip in midfield to crash it up. We still do it for Ireland. It's a good tactic with a lot of value in it. I don't know if Te'o is going to be the person to execute it really well but I'm more than willing to give him a chance before discounting him.
There's no problem with big players running straight and hard. We all loved Cian Healy running over Richie. The difference between Schmidt's teams doing it and MOC's Leinster doing it is that Leinster and Ireland under Schmidt played flat, had multiple dummy runners, and a lot of "animation" off the ball, as Murray Kinsella calls it. This meant that off quick ball the oppo defence was on the back foot and the contact area was easier to dominate. MOC's systems mean that individuals need to be much more powerful to get the same go-forward
I think we need to allow for the fact that MOC is only going into his second year- the perceived wisdom is that last season was primarily about building the deeefence. Hopefully this season will see Leinster's attacking capabilities coming together. As others have said, you can use a "bosh merchant" to punch holes, it doesn't preclude other players from advancing elsewhere on the pitch.
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by goreyguy »

The defence wasnt anything amazing anyway.. improved on last year but hardly laudable..
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by Alternative Ulster »

We're you watching the pro12 semi or final? If ulster or Glasgow were still playing in the rds they still wouldn't have scored a try.
They threw Everything at Leinster and failed.

I suppose you will find some other excuse for that.
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by desperado »

wixfjord wrote:Do people actually forget how Schmidt teams played?!

Do people think it was all just sunshine rugby and throwing the ball around?

The cornerstone of our success has been a gnarled pack full of internationals who know their role and could soften a team up, combined with smart, world class backs outside them and a lot of structure.

We lost two of those world class backs last season, with a third playing most of the year on one leg.

This nonsense gets dragged up in every thread by the same posters who quite simply refuse to change the tune.

The thing of 'returning to champagne rugby' is bull plop, unless you can clone BOD, Isa and Sexton.
We have the pack to play a certain way. We have a lot of big backs coming through. For the moment, it's prudent to be more bludgeon than rapier. Hopefully our backs can be a little better this season, and ironically GoreyGuy, Teo could allow this to happen by dragging men onto him and punching holes.

Well said. The full blown anti MOC (and all he touches, does etc etc) is getting very tiresome.
The lad hasn't even landed on the effin island yet, so give it a rest before you see him at least.
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by artaneboy »

wixfjord wrote:Do people actually forget how Schmidt teams played?!

Do people think it was all just sunshine rugby and throwing the ball around?
The answer is probably yes...or maybe "we prefer only to remember the great days". Really reluctant to get into this again- but this is really getting ridiculous. At the risk of instant incineration- can I remind the Mensheviks that pine for the sunlit uplands of our 'former glory' that there were plenty of crappy matches with Joe in charge. Joe also signed his share of seeming SH journeymen. The resumed condemnation of MOC because the club have signed Te'o is wearyingly opportunistic. And we had it a year ago with Kirchner- who most here will agree (concede) has been at least a modest success with the disrupted season he had. Are we going to do all this again? :roll:
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

dropkick wrote:It looks like a transition signing. BOD is gone, D'Arcy won't last much longer and theres no other solid options. Reid is good but young, Fitzgerald is always injured, Macken isn't the answer either. So Te'o is a solid option as the young academy centers (who are very talented) transition to the first team.
I really wanted a solid option for the reasons you've outlined. Basically we could experiment a bit and throw the signing in if that doesn't work. I can't see how Te'o is a solid option though given that he's a RL player.

Just on what ceemec is saying about Joe. I know I used to regularly complain that we were needlessly engaging in arm wrestles in games when we'd go down the Damian Browne/Lockie/Boss route as opposed to the Jenno/Reddan route, and I don't think I was the only one. We definitely weren't strangers to grinding out wins when Joe was here. Just to clarify, my point is that we used to play pragmatically, not that there were actually critics of Joe's selections/tactics at the time.
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by Oldschool »

deco wrote:Good signing. The only negative being the inevitable whingefest by a few posters repeating themselves ad nauseum.
Your post or it's ilk has has been done or repeated so often that it has become annoying and tiresome.
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by Tricky Dicky »

Based on how long it took Sonny Bill to get used to having to hold on to the ball and recycle it I think Te'o might have to be given an extended period to adapt to the union breakdown. I don't know how much he played union before he became a league pro but the breakdown could be a bit hard for him at first I'd say. I think I'd have preferred to see Tom Daly get a shot in the PRO12 instead of us signing Te'o, but now that the deal is done hopefully he'll get on ok and become a good option
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by Flash Gordon »

johng wrote:We may have to wait at least a year I reckon. To have a shot at a European cup.

When there is a big upheaval after the WC and the like of Toulon have "unsettled" squads with lots of comings and goings. we might have a bit more stability (Hopefully)
You might be right mate. Strong possibility that sexton will return then too which is an absolute game changer.
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by Flash Gordon »

Alternative Ulster wrote:We're you watching the pro12 semi or final? If ulster or Glasgow were still playing in the rds they still wouldn't have scored a try.
They threw Everything at Leinster and failed.

I suppose you will find some other excuse for that.
True. That being said, much of that was as much to do with the complete lack of guile and ingenuity from the ulster backline. Given the immense talent the play patterns were distinctly pedestrian.
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by Morf »

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Just on what ceemec is saying about Joe. I know I used to regularly complain that we were needlessly engaging in arm wrestles in games when we'd go down the Damian Browne/Lockie/Boss route as opposed to the Jenno/Reddan route, and I don't think I was the only one. We definitely weren't strangers to grinding out wins when Joe was here. Just to clarify, my point is that we used to play pragmatically, not that there were actually critics of Joe's selections/tactics at the time.
I think Browne did a really solid/effective job when called upon. Was it injuries that led to him not being kept on? A bit underrated.

I'm enthusiastic and optimistic about Te'o in blue.
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by simonokeeffe »

goreyguy wrote:A team should be used to develop homegrown academy players not 28 year old rugby league players.
So Niall Morris :wink: , Fanning, Boss, Roux, Ross, Cronin, McCarthy, McCarthy, Denton, Bent, Dundon, Strauss, Douglas, Kirchner should never have played for academy, been allowed nor be allowed regardless of whether they need gametime?

If we're playing him at all may as well give him what game time that he needs to be brought up to speed
Sure if he is not in senior panel of a game then its a home produced guy starting in that position
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

Morf wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Just on what ceemec is saying about Joe. I know I used to regularly complain that we were needlessly engaging in arm wrestles in games when we'd go down the Damian Browne/Lockie/Boss route as opposed to the Jenno/Reddan route, and I don't think I was the only one. We definitely weren't strangers to grinding out wins when Joe was here. Just to clarify, my point is that we used to play pragmatically, not that there were actually critics of Joe's selections/tactics at the time.
I think Browne did a really solid/effective job when called upon. Was it injuries that led to him not being kept on? A bit underrated.

I'm enthusiastic and optimistic about Te'o in blue.
Oh absolutely, the more he played the more I liked him. He had some great games for us, a real warrior. My issue was more with the style of play that his selection generally signalled. And if you look at Joe's record during his time with us, I think you'll find I was right to be sceptical :lol:
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by Morf »

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
Morf wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Just on what ceemec is saying about Joe. I know I used to regularly complain that we were needlessly engaging in arm wrestles in games when we'd go down the Damian Browne/Lockie/Boss route as opposed to the Jenno/Reddan route, and I don't think I was the only one. We definitely weren't strangers to grinding out wins when Joe was here. Just to clarify, my point is that we used to play pragmatically, not that there were actually critics of Joe's selections/tactics at the time.
I think Browne did a really solid/effective job when called upon. Was it injuries that led to him not being kept on? A bit underrated.

I'm enthusiastic and optimistic about Te'o in blue.
Oh absolutely, the more he played the more I liked him. He had some great games for us, a real warrior. My issue was more with the style of play that his selection generally signalled. And if you look at Joe's record during his time with us, I think you'll find I was right to be sceptical :lol:
He no doubt signalled a tight, no-frills affair. When Browne hit a ruck it stayed hit though.
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by Flakey 16 »

goreyguy wrote:A team should be used to develop homegrown academy players not 28 year old rugby league players.
He's 27... and the A team is for the benefit of the first team.
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Re: Leinster Rugby Confirm Signing of Ben Te'o

Post by Peg Leg »

simonokeeffe wrote:
goreyguy wrote:A team should be used to develop homegrown academy players not 28 year old rugby league players.
So Niall Morris :wink: , Fanning, Boss, Roux, Ross, Cronin, McCarthy, McCarthy, Denton, Bent, Dundon, Strauss, Douglas, Kirchner should never have played for academy, been allowed nor be allowed regardless of whether they need gametime?

If we're playing him at all may as well give him what game time that he needs to be brought up to speed
Sure if he is not in senior panel of a game then its a home produced guy starting in that position
Thorn's debut in Blue really sticks in the craw in that regard.
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