What now for Madigan?

[irishjonny]

Am I the only one who thinks there's a very good chance that Keatley drops out of the 23 this week and Mad Dog is kept on the bench as he can cover more positions/provides a spark off the bench?

[All Blacks nil]

Keatley doesn't have the mental strenght that Madigan has as he demonstrated in the first half on Saturday.

Rubbish. The guy had a few nerves and made a few errors in his first meaningful competitive game. I thought he did very well overall and got stronger as the game went. I wouldn't judge him until he's had a good run of games in that position.

Having said that I'd pick Madigan because he's a Leinster player and I like Leinster players more than I do the players from other provinces.

If he wasn't mentally strong those early errors would have destroyed him and this discussion would be over.

Is he as mentally strong as Madigan? That is for Joe to decide.

[Logorrhea]

Am I the only one who thinks there's a very good chance that Keatley drops out of the 23 this week and Mad Dog is kept on the bench as he can cover more positions/provides a spark off the bench?

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if Keatley stayed on the bench this time around or even started (less chance of that of course). We have no idea if Johnny can go for 80, so I'd say he'll go for the security of Keatley, rather than the flexibility and impact of Madigan.

[All Blacks nil]

Personally, I would try and pick my next best out half on the bench. Madigan's versatility is a plus and might sway a 50-50 decision.
On the evidence of the last 2 weeks I don't think Joe views it as 50-50. He opted for Keatly who franked that decision with decent controlled performance.

Madigan may get the 23 shirt but I think Keatly will be sub outhalf

[neiliog93]

Madigan definitely won't get the 23 shirt, Jones covers the back 3 much better than him and is in great form. Madigan is obviously more versatile than Keatley, but more pertinently than that, offers impact off the bench. If we were losing and in need of a try with 15 minutes to go and you needed someone to shake it up, Madigan offers a spark that Keatley, solid as he is, simply does not.

[curates_egg]

Said before the game that Keatley should stay in the 23 when Sexton comes back if he performs.
I Thought he didn't perform in terms of what he was selected for. We had total dominance up front and all the possession but Keatley never looked like anything other than a passenger. One or two good kicks from hand aside, he had no influence on the game when the ball was in play. his deadball kicking was good though.
I would totally disagree with ABnil that he controlled the game. Given that is the biggest criticism against Madigan, Keatley is not the solution.

That said, they both offer different things from the bench, even though they cover the same positions, so it depends what Joe wants: a potential game winner or a potential game slower.

Think the bigger question is will the Payne 13 experiment get called anytime. Payne is class but looks shoehorned at 13. Would much prefer Luke to start with Payne on the bench. Think that is more important than who is 22.

I still am not convinced Sexton will start though.

[Not_Today]

Should Sexton start Keatley has every chance of subbing behind him. He covers 12 and Jones came onto the wing last week. Jones, Payne or Zebo could cover FB, Bowe can cover 13. I'm not sure Madigan's versatility will be needed unless he can convince Joe he can do a better job than Keatley at outhalf.

[Oldschool]

Should Sexton start Keatley has every chance of subbing behind him. He covers 12 and Jones came onto the wing last week. Jones, Payne or Zebo could cover FB, Bowe can cover 13. I'm not sure Madigan's versatility will be needed unless he can convince Joe he can do a better job than Keatley at outhalf.

Pretty much agree. However it's probable that Joe wanted to see how Keatley would do in a pressure international.
Case not proven might best describe last Saturday.

[curates_egg]

Should Sexton start Keatley has every chance of subbing behind him. He covers 12 and Jones came onto the wing last week. Jones, Payne or Zebo could cover FB, Bowe can cover 13. I'm not sure Madigan's versatility will be needed unless he can convince Joe he can do a better job than Keatley at outhalf.

Keatley covers exactly the same positions as Madigan: has played more than Madigan at 12 over his career and possibly more at 15 too, so that point is irrelevant. He covers all three positions in a different way though, so it all depends what Schmidt wants on the bench.
Think Keatley had a great opportunity on Saturday and didn't take it.
If Sexton starts this Saturday, the decision on who benches will be interesting: both in terms of how Schmidt sees the game going and also his planning for the world cup.

[Not_Today]

I'm not buying the theory that Keatley didn't grab the opportunity, perhaps Joe went with a game plan that allowed Keatley ease into the game. In fairness to him we were in the red zone a few times and turned over the ball. He got all kicks at goal, tidied up a messy ball from Murray, made a few breaks. I thought he had a very good game. It has to be remembered it was his 1st 6Ns game, I think Joe will let get more gametime during the 6Ns to see who he needs for the world cup.

Madigan needs to convince MOC to let him play outhalf in a few important games for Leinster.

[Peg Leg]

Personally, I would try and pick my next best out half on the bench. Madigan's versatility is a plus and might sway a 50-50 decision.
On the evidence of the last 2 weeks I don't think Joe views it as 50-50. He opted for Keatly who franked that decision with decent controlled performance.

Madigan may get the 23 shirt but I think Keatly will be sub outhalf

I think the fact that France don't really offer much in the way of a structured attack for 80 mins will be the decider. For me I'd rather Keatley coming on and continue to play the territory game.
The thought of Madigan trying to win it himself scares the cr@p out of me.

[Peg Leg]

I'm not buying the theory that Keatley didn't grab the opportunity, perhaps Joe went with a game plan that allowed Keatley ease into the game. In fairness to him we were in the red zone a few times and turned over the ball. He got all kicks at goal, tidied up a messy ball from Murray, made a few breaks. I thought he had a very good game. It has to be remembered it was his 1st 6Ns game, I think Joe will let get more gametime during the 6Ns to see who he needs for the world cup.

Madigan needs to convince MOC to let him play outhalf in a few important games for Leinster.

+1
Thought Keatley gave a very good account of himself on his 6N debut. Lets not forget the limited game plan we played though, was that because JS had to select Keatley or because he is keeping the playbook closed until this weekend?

[ceemec]

Keatley covers exactly the same positions as Madigan: has played more than Madigan at 12 over his career and possibly more at 15 too, so that point is irrelevant.

He has started 3 games at 12 in his career, 2 at 13 and 5 at 15. All other 127 starts in his provincial career have come at outhalf.

Madigan has 13 starts at 12, 10 starts at 15 and 53 starts at 10 in his provincial career.

[olaf the fat]

Play Keatley as much as possible in the 6Ns.

We have France and Italy in our RWC group - chances are Sexton will get broken for some part of the competition. We need 2 from Jackson, Keatley, Madigan ready and blooded. More options the better.

[All Blacks nil]

Keatley covers exactly the same positions as Madigan: has played more than Madigan at 12 over his career and possibly more at 15 too, so that point is irrelevant.

He has started 3 games at 12 in his career, 2 at 13 and 5 at 15. All other 127 starts in his provincial career have come at outhalf.

Madigan has 13 starts at 12, 10 starts at 15 and 53 starts at 10 in his provincial career.

A lot is made of Madigan's versatility.
Is versatility a reason to select someone as a sub halfback?
There was a time when your backline replacements comprised of a sub scrum half, sub outhalf and a versatile player to cover the outside backs . Madigan's versatility has provided other options to Ireland.
But the main criteria in selecting "number 22" is still surely that he be the best option at outhalf.
That is Joe's decision. Signs are that he considers Keatly a better alternative.
If versatility is a good enough reason to select your replacement half backs surely Tomas O Leary is a shoo-in for RWC 2015

[ceemec]

It really depends on what they're being selected for. Are they being chosen as someone that will come on and play 10 while offering an option at centre or are they being chosen as someone that can come on and play centre while offering an option at 10?

It's rare to have someone like Mike Catt that's a class act in either role. Schmidt will make the call based on what he sees as the most likely and positive option. It really could be either.

If there's any doubt over Sexton's match fitness, it has to be Keatley. If Schmidt believes that Sexton is going to play the 80, then Madigan probably makes more sense.

[olaf the fat]

It really depends on what they're being selected for. Are they being chosen as someone that will come on and play 10 while offering an option at centre or are they being chosen as someone that can come on and play centre while offering an option at 10?

It's rare to have someone like Mike Catt that's a class act in either role. Schmidt will make the call based on what he sees as the most likely and positive option. It really could be either.

If there's any doubt over Sexton's match fitness, it has to be Keatley. If Schmidt believes that Sexton is going to play the 80, then Madigan probably makes more sense.

If he can get all of the understudies more game time, he will have a pretty full box of tools for the outhalf job.

[AdamK]

Am I the only one who thinks there's a very good chance that Keatley drops out of the 23 this week and Mad Dog is kept on the bench as he can cover more positions/provides a spark off the bench?

That's how I see it. Joe has said he sees the impact Madigan brings off the bench. He's essentially a specialists bench player.

[COYBIB]

There is one reason and one reason only that Madigan didn't start against Italy and that was that he played himself out of the team against the Saxons. That was probably the worst I've ever seen Madigan play.

But his impact from the bench against Italy was very noticable and I would imagine for the impact he brings off the bench alone, he will be in the 23 ahead of Keatley this weekend. On Keatley, he had an extremely poor first quarter and was pretty average after that. He didn't exactly scream international contender.

As for what next for Madigan, nothing has changed really. He's still first choice 12 at Leinster and second choice 10, he'll probably have a 60/40 split between those positions when Sexton is back, as you would imagine Sexton will be rotated in and out of Pro12 games - this is presuming we promote Marsh and don't sign a 10.

His options are go to Connacht and be first choice 10, go to Munster as I'm sure they would sign him in a heartbeat, would be promised a 10 jersey but be played at 12 mostly, in a similar role he's in at Leinster, or he could head off to the premiership or top14.

Whilst he's clear 10 is his preference, I don't see why he would be tempted to leave his home province where he's a first team player to gamble on his career as a 10, and he'll have to wait out sexton one way or another for the Irish jersey.

I don't think he'll go, I think he's quite happy where he is and is an extremely valuable player getting lots of game time, both for province and country. Either way, he wont be making any decisions for another 12 months, and if his comments after signing his last contract are anything to go by, he'll be happy to extend his stay so long as the beans stack up.

"It was a no-brainer for me. I'm from Leinster. I grew up supporting Leinster and my friends play here. I'm thrilled."

[curates_egg]

Keatley covers exactly the same positions as Madigan: has played more than Madigan at 12 over his career and possibly more at 15 too, so that point is irrelevant.

He has started 3 games at 12 in his career, 2 at 13 and 5 at 15. All other 127 starts in his provincial career have come at outhalf.

Madigan has 13 starts at 12, 10 starts at 15 and 53 starts at 10 in his provincial career.

Fair balls. Where do you even get those stats?
Keatley may not have started at 12 as much as Madigan but he has definitely played there for both Munster and Ireland over the past year.
Anyway, the point remains. They both cover the same positions...in different ways.

It seems the jury (both online and in the media) is very much divided on how Keatley did.
If Jonny starts and it is assumed he will not last the match, then Keatley would seem to be better placed for the bench, as I don't see us playing a running game vs France.