Toulon v Leinster

[flustered]

Thought the pack played well overall, Toulon improved up front when Smit and the front row changed. VDF has got a very bright future ahead of him and would have learned a lot playing against that backrow. Heaslip I thought was good too and Ruddock immense!

I would have taken Sexton off for Madigan, he was having a nightmare! Can someone tells me what McFadden offers as an attacking threat on the wing (well from any position really!!)

[Logorrhea]

By pretty much every metric, he was the best performing prop on the field.

You mean by those select metrics. I very much doubt the likes of Leo would be judging a tight head prop's performance on those. You could have also suggested he was the oldest prop on the pitch. Its like playing Prop Top Trumps and pulling out the peripheral stats.

The Carrying stats for all the props were varying levels of shite. None of which should be used to rate a performance. With regards to Ross's carrying through, the ball bounced up into Ross's hands once while he was in space and he ran for about 4 or 5 of those metres. It was a nice carry and he took a defender with him but that was pretty much the sum of his carrying for the match. I wouldn't attack him for it, but I wouldn't use that to praise his performance.

The fact that he didn't concede any penalties or give the ball away once could also be used as an indicator of peripheral role he plays at the breakdown and tackle area.

I don't think Ross was bad. The scrum was rock solid against a pretty weak Toulon unit. But why not give Furlong or Moore a good run? We've nothing to lose and both have shown they are capable.

[Oldschool]

We cannot expect to win the cup ever year but we can expect the best management of the resources that we have. O'Connor and Cullen have been abject failures in that regard. The selection of players bought in has been very poor and the use and development of what we have has been appalling.

The overall result of these failures is disastrous and will be long-lasting.

Leo has to be a given at least a season to bed in.
Positive criticism fair enough. Along the lines of what you think he should have done differently and why.
In my book he's doing better than MOC but then that would not be difficult .

[Oldschoolsocks]

By pretty much every metric, he was the best performing prop on the field.

You mean by those select metrics. I very much doubt the likes of Leo would be judging a tight head prop's performance on those. You could have also suggested he was the oldest prop on the pitch. Its like playing Prop Top Trumps and pulling out the peripheral stats.

The Carrying stats for all the props were varying levels of shite. None of which should be used to rate a performance. With regards to Ross's carrying through, the ball bounced up into Ross's hands once while he was in space and he ran for about 4 or 5 of those metres. It was a nice carry and he took a defender with him but that was pretty much the sum of his carrying for the match. I wouldn't attack him for it, but I wouldn't use that to praise his performance.

The fact that he didn't concede any penalties or give the ball away once could also be used as an indicator of peripheral role he plays at the breakdown and tackle area.

I don't think Ross was bad. The scrum was rock solid against a pretty weak Toulon unit. But why not give Furlong or Moore a good run? We've nothing to lose and both have shown they are capable.

Scrum looked unde pressure on Moores side when he came on

[OTT]

I do not think it is all doom and gloom. This was the group match we could afford to lose because we were gonna win the other 5

Our backrow were very good especially Ruddock, I actually thought we dealt with Armitage pretty well in the first half it was just ware and tare as the game went on where he started getting decisions which were probably 50/50 but because we were on the back foot he got the benefit of the doubt (no issues with that btw we have benefited from these rubs plenty of times in the past it is the nature of the beast at the breakdown).

Our scrum was on top I thought, I think in terms of actual penalties it might have been 2 to 1 to them but for me Nige was making us play a lot of balls when the Toulon front row were crumpled on the ground. I know refs do this for continuity of play but it really pisses me off, it is a kop out for me yet it seems to be a directive lately it was the same cr@p in the Ireland v Italy RWC game. Especially a pity when it is an area we have been struggling in lately and when we have a marked improvement we did not seem to get the reward. But anyway well done to the pack.

Our defensive lineout (or Dev) was the best I have seen it in years. Such a pity the one we did not cause mayhem in was the one where they got a try at a time where we seemed to be quite comfortable. It was a risk to contest their lineout so much but on the whole it was a success for me.

I thought Boss was damn good, I have lambasted him in the past for being slow killing our backs and kicking to much and badly but I thought he was on it yesterday and defensively he brought an aggression which we needed, thought Reddan was pretty brutal when he came on but we looked out for the count at that stage in his defence.

Luke and Ben both played well individually and look like they could be very good centres but they do not look like a very good partnership. They both are getting by on the fact they are just very good athletes but there is no cohesion for me. Maybe switch them around? Or maybe give Ringrose his chance at 13 we are out of Europe and Ben seem 95% likely to be gone next season. I am not dissing T'eo who I think has been one of our best players this season I just rate Ringrose highly and hope he will be our 13 for the next 10 years and he is definitely up to the pro 12 right now.

Thought Ferg was as industrious as ever and gave everything he had not sure if thats enough anymore but I do love his heart and effort, Isa had a quiet game other then in general defence I can only remember him getting skinned badly once on the outside and dropping a ball and Rob was Rob at full back steady without ever looking threatening and he did not have to deal with any high balls which usually give him a bit more exposure.

The bad bits. The yellow cards, thought Healy was reckless even if I understood his frustration, you just cannot do things like that anymore and Dev chose not to listen to Owens wether he agreeds with him or not so was on a hiding to nothing. Two sin bins that were easily avoidable.

Johnny Sexton was bad, we nailed Gopps and Mads for less in the recent past, he made one big tackle early in the first half (cannot remember which beast it was on)which took him a few mins to get back from a recurring theme in practically every match now. I think he needs a rest, the guy is a warrior so wont take himself out of the frame so I think the coaches should tell him he is on holiday for a while. We need him if we are gonna have a crack at Europe next year but we need him at his best. What a lucky position we are in to have a replacement on the bench like Madigan, shame on the coaches for only bringing him on in the 76th minute. I want Madigan to stay for me as a fan but for him I think he would be crazy to.

We have a serious issue at hooker.Strauss plays 50mins then recovers for a few weeks from a head knock then plays another few mins then etc etc, this is a recurring theme. Cronin looks shot of confidence from his treatment in the world cup. He is a poor lineout thrower at the best of times but at the minute we have a better chance on the opposition throw. Not sure if Tracy is the answer I think his throwing has improved as the season has gone on but lets find out and then we can see if we need to get someone in next year or not. From a personal perspective I worry everytime I see Straussy go down, give him a proper few months off now like Sexton got last season and he might have a fighting chance of recovering.

We desperately need another 2nd row of quality, We rely on Dev for our lineout, for oppo lineout, for our scrum, for carrying (he is going backwards a lot recently with the ball). Mike Mc has been very good this year but he is not a lineout guy. They both need another guy who can come in and improve things. It was left to Rhys to take the shite lineout ball when Dev was binned after Cronin and Mike coughed up our last meaningful attacking position, we need to be able to go to the bench and bring on another lineout expert not a Denton, not to bag on him because he is what he is, an average Irish qualified 2nd row, if Molony is not as good as him (and Molony is perceived to be better then Beirne and Thornbury) then we should just f%~k the academy in the bin right now. Give the lads a facking chance.

And scrumhalf obviously despite for me Bossy having a good game if we look at nothing else other then age profile we are crying out for another guy with decent legs.

Losing to Toulon away and nearly getting a bonus point is not the end of the world (that happened when we got thumped at home by Wasps) it is usually seen as a heroic performance. With what we have I believe we should be getting at least second in this group but we are Leinster and that will rightfully never be good enough, so we are miles away from where we should be and where we want to be which is challenging for European titles but maybe a Ringrose or a Tracey or a Molony can help us get there a bit quicker. We invest so much in our famed academy lets turn to these guys for a bit of much needed enthusiam.

I really think we can beat Toulon this weekend if the pack front up like they did yesterday. But win or lose if I get to see Ringrose, Tracy, Molony etc make a meaningful contribution to our performance it will make me feel much more positive about our future. Leo banged on about the Leinster way earlier in the season and bringing it back, the Leinster way was not holding back young guys like Drico , Darce, Shaggy, Scally, Girve, Casey and himself all those years ago. I want Leo to be the most successful Leinster coach ever but he needs to start believing in what he has been preaching.

[hugonaut]

By pretty much every metric, he was the best performing prop on the field.

You mean by those select metrics. I very much doubt the likes of Leo would be judging a tight head prop's performance on those. You could have also suggested he was the oldest prop on the pitch. Its like playing Prop Top Trumps and pulling out the peripheral stats.

The Carrying stats for all the props were varying levels of shite. None of which should be used to rate a performance. With regards to Ross's carrying through, the ball bounced up into Ross's hands once while he was in space and he ran for about 4 or 5 of those metres. It was a nice carry and he took a defender with him but that was pretty much the sum of his carrying for the match. I wouldn't attack him for it, but I wouldn't use that to praise his performance.

The fact that he didn't concede any penalties or give the ball away once could also be used as an indicator of peripheral role he plays at the breakdown and tackle area.

I don't think Ross was bad. The scrum was rock solid against a pretty weak Toulon unit. But why not give Furlong or Moore a good run? We've nothing to lose and both have shown they are capable.

The criticism was "that he offers nothing apart from scrummaging" – I was responding to that post specifically, as I showed by quoting it.

[carlow man]

Well I still think he doesn't do much apart from scrummaging. Moore and Furlong are the way forward and the way the game is going props are being asked to carry more and be more mobile around the park. Ross does neither of these. Just feel his best days are gone but we still pick people on past form rather than current.

[the spoofer]

I thought Nigel's definition of clear release in the tackle was interesting.

[Ruckedtobits]

We cannot expect to win the cup ever year but we can expect the best management of the resources that we have. O'Connor and Cullen have been abject failures in that regard. The selection of players bought in has been very poor and the use and development of what we have has been appalling.

The overall result of these failures is disastrous and will be long-lasting.

Your postings have increasingly become Troll-like. There is no resemblence between what Leo / Girv / Kurt have produced compared to MO'C. Performances, sometimes spoiled by individual faults, of running attacking rugby, even without the skill and cutting edge of Darcy, O'Brien and obviously BO'D, may not all have successful, but they have been largely attractive and aggressive.

This Coaching Ticket are getting there, certainly not as quickly as most would like, but for this punter at least, with the style and brio I expect from Leinster. That they have also given opportunities to players like Ringrose, Kelleher, Reid, Marsh, McGrath, Treacy, Dooley, Molony, Leavy and Van der Flier is what I expect and want as a STH.

If only Ringrose, McGrath, Leavy and Van der Flier emerge as long-term Leinster and Irish players, I'll live with that also, as about as many as expected from a 3 year cycle in our Academy. There are no certainties in sport but, giving the young talent, the right opportunity, is just as important as giving them the right skills.

[riocard911]

Whatever about the match, I thought Leo's post-match interview left a lot to be desired. I mean, the guy had a week to prepare for a grilling on camera about losing this match, and he came across like a deer in the headlights of 4x4. Instead of addressing the deficits his team displayed, he offered up boilerplate about moving on to next week and wanting to not let down the 40.000 plus fans in the Aviva. Unsatisfactory - must improve!!!!

[Flash Gordon]

We cannot expect to win the cup ever year but we can expect the best management of the resources that we have. O'Connor and Cullen have been abject failures in that regard. The selection of players bought in has been very poor and the use and development of what we have has been appalling.

The overall result of these failures is disastrous and will be long-lasting.

Leo has to be a given at least a season to bed in.
Positive criticism fair enough. Along the lines of what you think he should have done differently and why.
In my book he's doing better than MOC but then that would not be difficult .

Not sure how you figure that, under MOC we cam close to beating Toulon in European Cup semi final and now for the first time ever we've lost our first 3 games! I agree in terms of giving Leo time - that appointment was crazy to be honest but its not his fault he got the job and he loves the club clearly. However, it is Mick Dawson's job to provide an inexperienced coaching team with the right level of support. Yesterday was a very bad day at the office for the coaches. Our skills were poor, our discipline terrible, our defensive systems odd at times and the coaching team didn't react to what was in front of them. Sexton was having a shocker and should have been pulled in at 50 minutes, it just wasn't happening for the lad. I also think they have the centers the wrong way round.....

It's not just Leo its Girv too - we've scored 1 try in 3 games and we don't look like scoring either. We're solid enough in defence but our attack is fundamentally broken.

Personally I think we need to bring in a couple of senior heads to help the lads through year 1 because having given Leo the job we now not only risk our season but also might end up in a situation where he never gets another coaching role.

[Gearzbox2]

I do not think it is all doom and gloom. This was the group match we could afford to lose because we were gonna win the other 5

Our backrow were very good especially Ruddock, I actually thought we dealt with Armitage pretty well in the first half it was just ware and tare as the game went on where he started getting decisions which were probably 50/50 but because we were on the back foot he got the benefit of the doubt (no issues with that btw we have benefited from these rubs plenty of times in the past it is the nature of the beast at the breakdown).

Our scrum was on top I thought, I think in terms of actual penalties it might have been 2 to 1 to them but for me Nige was making us play a lot of balls when the Toulon front row were crumpled on the ground. I know refs do this for continuity of play but it really pisses me off, it is a kop out for me yet it seems to be a directive lately it was the same cr@p in the Ireland v Italy RWC game. Especially a pity when it is an area we have been struggling in lately and when we have a marked improvement we did not seem to get the reward. But anyway well done to the pack.

Our defensive lineout (or Dev) was the best I have seen it in years. Such a pity the one we did not cause mayhem in was the one where they got a try at a time where we seemed to be quite comfortable. It was a risk to contest their lineout so much but on the whole it was a success for me.

I thought Boss was damn good, I have lambasted him in the past for being slow killing our backs and kicking to much and badly but I thought he was on it yesterday and defensively he brought an aggression which we needed, thought Reddan was pretty brutal when he came on but we looked out for the count at that stage in his defence.

Luke and Ben both played well individually and look like they could be very good centres but they do not look like a very good partnership. They both are getting by on the fact they are just very good athletes but there is no cohesion for me. Maybe switch them around? Or maybe give Ringrose his chance at 13 we are out of Europe and Ben seem 95% likely to be gone next season. I am not dissing T'eo who I think has been one of our best players this season I just rate Ringrose highly and hope he will be our 13 for the next 10 years and he is definitely up to the pro 12 right now.

Thought Ferg was as industrious as ever and gave everything he had not sure if thats enough anymore but I do love his heart and effort, Isa had a quiet game other then in general defence I can only remember him getting skinned badly once on the outside and dropping a ball and Rob was Rob at full back steady without ever looking threatening and he did not have to deal with any high balls which usually give him a bit more exposure.

The bad bits. The yellow cards, thought Healy was reckless even if I understood his frustration, you just cannot do things like that anymore and Dev chose not to listen to Owens wether he agreeds with him or not so was on a hiding to nothing. Two sin bins that were easily avoidable.

Johnny Sexton was bad, we nailed Gopps and Mads for less in the recent past, he made one big tackle early in the first half (cannot remember which beast it was on)which took him a few mins to get back from a recurring theme in practically every match now. I think he needs a rest, the guy is a warrior so wont take himself out of the frame so I think the coaches should tell him he is on holiday for a while. We need him if we are gonna have a crack at Europe next year but we need him at his best. What a lucky position we are in to have a replacement on the bench like Madigan, shame on the coaches for only bringing him on in the 76th minute. I want Madigan to stay for me as a fan but for him I think he would be crazy to.

We have a serious issue at hooker.Strauss plays 50mins then recovers for a few weeks from a head knock then plays another few mins then etc etc, this is a recurring theme. Cronin looks shot of confidence from his treatment in the world cup. He is a poor lineout thrower at the best of times but at the minute we have a better chance on the opposition throw. Not sure if Tracy is the answer I think his throwing has improved as the season has gone on but lets find out and then we can see if we need to get someone in next year or not. From a personal perspective I worry everytime I see Straussy go down, give him a proper few months off now like Sexton got last season and he might have a fighting chance of recovering.

We desperately need another 2nd row of quality, We rely on Dev for our lineout, for oppo lineout, for our scrum, for carrying (he is going backwards a lot recently with the ball). Mike Mc has been very good this year but he is not a lineout guy. They both need another guy who can come in and improve things. It was left to Rhys to take the shite lineout ball when Dev was binned after Cronin and Mike coughed up our last meaningful attacking position, we need to be able to go to the bench and bring on another lineout expert not a Denton, not to bag on him because he is what he is, an average Irish qualified 2nd row, if Molony is not as good as him (and Molony is perceived to be better then Beirne and Thornbury) then we should just f%~k the academy in the bin right now. Give the lads a facking chance.

And scrumhalf obviously despite for me Bossy having a good game if we look at nothing else other then age profile we are crying out for another guy with decent legs.

Losing to Toulon away and nearly getting a bonus point is not the end of the world (that happened when we got thumped at home by Wasps) it is usually seen as a heroic performance. With what we have I believe we should be getting at least second in this group but we are Leinster and that will rightfully never be good enough, so we are miles away from where we should be and where we want to be which is challenging for European titles but maybe a Ringrose or a Tracey or a Molony can help us get there a bit quicker. We invest so much in our famed academy lets turn to these guys for a bit of much needed enthusiam.

I really think we can beat Toulon this weekend if the pack front up like they did yesterday. But win or lose if I get to see Ringrose, Tracy, Molony etc make a meaningful contribution to our performance it will make me feel much more positive about our future. Leo banged on about the Leinster way earlier in the season and bringing it back, the Leinster way was not holding back young guys like Drico , Darce, Shaggy, Scally, Girve, Casey and himself all those years ago. I want Leo to be the most successful Leinster coach ever but he needs to start believing in what he has been preaching.

I think you are being particularly hard on our hookers...thought Strauss fronted up well in the opening 50/55 minutes, had a good steal, carried a couple of times and scrum was solid....as for cronin, he had to deal with both locks being in the bin at stages when he was and also from the stats( not that I'm a big believer in them ) he was on the pitch for 25 minutes and had more meters gained from carries than both our Number 8 and Full back, both who seem to come in for no criticism from your post...maybe watch the game back again.....

[simonokeeffe]

Can you set scheduled posts here like you can with tweets?

would save us all a lot of time instead of having to repost Molony over Denton, what does Healy have to do to get dropped, Ringrose needs to be involved etc

Ross and McFadden had really good games, Te'o nuillified by bigger boys (gave away silly penalties too)

Found it interesting Murphy was left riding pine

Murphy came on for vd Flier

Knew I shouldve waited til the end to go to the loo

me out

[OTT]

I think you are being particularly hard on our hookers...thought Strauss fronted up well in the opening 50/55 minutes, had a good steal, carried a couple of times and scrum was solid....as for cronin, he had to deal with both locks being in the bin at stages when he was and also from the stats( not that I'm a big believer in them ) he was on the pitch for 25 minutes and had more meters gained from carries than both our Number 8 and Full back, both who seem to come in for no criticism from your post...maybe watch the game back again.....

I know it was a long post which is maybe why you got confused as it could not hold your attention. I said we need a new hooker (or to give Tracy more game time) because Strauss gets a head knock most games he plays leaving him out for weeks not that he is not a good player or played badly and that Cronin struggles massively with lineout throwing which he again gave examples of yesterday. He is a load of bollix in the scrum too btw a point I did not mention first time around. He does rack up the metres with the ball in hand though as you say. A nice bonus if he could do the rest of the job.

I said Kearney was steady because I thought he was steady, it was hardly a glowing endorsement of his performance, how would you like me to criticize him? And if you think Heaslip was bad maybe you should rewatch the game back yourself as he definitely upped his performance level yesterday from the last few games. I am sure he was far from perfect in a game like that where you lose by 16points not many will be, maybe you could point out his faults yesterday?

[Gearzbox2]

I think you are being particularly hard on our hookers...thought Strauss fronted up well in the opening 50/55 minutes, had a good steal, carried a couple of times and scrum was solid....as for cronin, he had to deal with both locks being in the bin at stages when he was and also from the stats( not that I'm a big believer in them ) he was on the pitch for 25 minutes and had more meters gained from carries than both our Number 8 and Full back, both who seem to come in for no criticism from your post...maybe watch the game back again.....

I know it was a long post which is maybe why you got confused as it could not hold your attention. I said we need a new hooker (or to give Tracy more game time) because Strauss gets a head knock most games he plays leaving him out for weeks not that he is not a good player or played badly and that Cronin struggles massively with lineout throwing which he again gave examples of yesterday. He is a load of bollix in the scrum too btw a point I did not mention first time around. He does rack up the metres with the ball in hand though as you say. A nice bonus if he could do the rest of the job.

I said Kearney was steady because I thought he was steady, it was hardly a glowing endorsement of his performance, how would you like me to criticize him? And if you think Heaslip was bad maybe you should rewatch the game back yourself as he definitely upped his performance level yesterday from the last few games. I am sure he was far from perfect in a game like that where you lose by 16points not many will be, maybe you could point out his faults yesterday?

It was tough to keep my attention sifting threw your waffle to be honest....the front row that started against Ulster didn't struggle too badly ( one that included cronin up against the supposed best scrummager in Europe in Rory Best) and yet that whole front row was changed on mass for yesterday's game....why wasn't jack mc starting????, suppose it's his scrummaging as well
Get your head out of your hole maybe when making judgements on something you seem to know nothing about.....

[Vamos los azules]

Personally I think we need to bring in a couple of senior heads to help the lads through year 1 because having given Leo the job we now not only risk our season but also might end up in a situation where he never gets another coaching role.

Messrs Rowntree, Farrell and Catt just became available, or are you looking for rather less tainted goods than that?

I do agree that Leo could do with some support. For me he should never have been given the job in the first place, but now he has is it he should be being given all the help he needs.

[Dave Cahill]

We need a forwards coach and a skills and kicking coach, both with no previous connection to Leinster or Ireland preferably

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I think Leo messed up by not taking Sexton off, and in general I'm quite worried about his use of the bench, but I really did like the way we were set up tactically. I'd love to have seen what we were capable of if Sexton hadn't had a nightmare. I know the second half was very limp in terms of attack but I think we were just wrecked from the great defensive effort/two yellows and still think we're close to clicking. Might even take one dodgy decision or lucky bounce for confidence to flow back, and I'm reminded of the try that Sexton had chalked off (correctly) a few weeks back when I say that.

[Flash Gordon]

Agreed, not sure about our attack coaching either to be honest. I think we should have gone looking for an attack coach in the southern hemisphere. I also wonder whether we should have a more senior "director of rugby" type role to mentor Leo (Graham Henry maybe - think he's doing something similar with Argentina).

There's a broader point on the development of coaches. The direct route is not working and its not working for pretty obvious reasons - you're not bringing any step change breakthrough thinking (like Joe, Knoxy or Chieka); you're too familiar with the players and you just don't have the tools. I think smart young coaches like Girv should be on a development plan that involves coaching in France/England and in the Southern Hemisphere. Clearly a guy like Mark McCall is a completely different proposition now to the Mark McCall who coached Ulster when he stopped playing having coached in Ireland, France and England.

[Broken Wing]

Whatever about the match, I thought Leo's post-match interview left a lot to be desired. I mean, the guy had a week to prepare for a grilling on camera about losing this match, and he came across like a deer in the headlights of 4x4. Instead of addressing the deficits his team displayed, he offered up boilerplate about moving on to next week and wanting to not let down the 40.000 plus fans in the Aviva. Unsatisfactory - must improve!!!!

That's hilarious. I'm sure you'll find agreement from people who see the match as the build up to the post match interviews but in my experience coaches and players don't say anything in those situations and the whole pointless exercise of post match interviews should be done away with.