In defence of Dave Kearney and Fergus McFadden

[Dave Cahill]

Well if it's in wikipedia


Sorry, its just that I come from a Company family (go turners) and it gets on my nerves when people misuse the term (which in fairness, you were attempting to correct)

[Dave Cahill]

Actually, Stuart Barnes last column for the torygraph before he went to the Times was a glorification of David Holwell under the title "New Zealand Journeyman shows the way" and I remember that the title caused some consternation on the old leinsterrugby.ie forum as people misunderstood the quality of the journeyman

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... e-way.html

[Oldschoolsocks]

So we are all agreed them, they are journeymen, in the sense that they are competent professionals but not masters of their craft, not in the British or Wayne Barnsey context of travelling from club to club?


Perfect

[Dave Cahill]

I wonder how many players out there would be prepared to do what Fergus did to save the win (and the home semi final) against Edinburgh?

Last season someone said that yeah he was a good player and all but he wouldn't be selected by a top european team - which is a point you hear now and again and it has one fatal flaw. Between 2010/11 and 2012/13 Fergus started 17 european games (playing in a further 7) winning two European Cups and a Challenge Cup in the process. Leinster were a top, the top indeed, european team and Fergus was a regular selection.

[Dubmon]

Here's an article on the concept including a photo of the silly garb:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journeyman_years
It definitely has to do with travel. I know that for a fact.
I've a German carpenter friend who did it. I thought it was part of her apprenticeship but it could have been at the end.

Either way, neither Dave nor Ferg fit that definition; their blood is bluer than the Danube is or ever was.

You don't get a lot of My Fair Lady quotes on the forums these days.

[Dirk Stickler]

I wouldn't classify either as a journeyman but then my understanding of that word is so deeply considered and bamboozling that I wouldn't expect anyone to fully understand it.

[riocard911]

I wonder how many players out there would be prepared to do what Fergus did to save the win (and the home semi final) against Edinburgh?

Last season someone said that yeah he was a good player and all but he wouldn't be selected by a top european team - which is a point you hear now and again and it has one fatal flaw. Between 2010/11 and 2012/13 Fergus started 17 european games (playing in a further 7) winning two European Cups and a Challenge Cup in the process. Leinster were a top, the top indeed, european team and Fergus was a regular selection.

+1

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Surprised nobody else has said this but I'll bite, the Ferg of 2015/16 was not the Ferg of 2010-2013. Apples and oranges.

And I say that as someone who likes him.

[Dave Cahill]

Surprised nobody else has said this but I'll bite, the Ferg of 2015/16 was not the Ferg of 2010-2013. Apples and oranges.

And I say that as someone who likes him.

Its a fair point, but it also must be seen in the context of the Leinster of 2015-16 not being the Leinster of 2010-13. It all adds up - players decline, teams decline, the latter throws the former into sharper contrast and/or throws the perception of the former into sharper contrast. Its a cumulative thing.

[curates_egg]

Here's an article on the concept including a photo of the silly garb:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journeyman_years
It definitely has to do with travel. I know that for a fact.
I've a German carpenter friend who did it. I thought it was part of her apprenticeship but it could have been at the end.

Either way, neither Dave nor Ferg fit that definition; their blood is bluer than the Danube is or ever was.

You don't get a lot of My Fair Lady quotes on the forums these days.

I'm glad at least somebody has diverse "taste" on here. I wish I could claim it was also in the original Pygmalion, and that I were robbing it from GBS...but I think that scene was written for My Fair Lady.

[curates_egg]

So we are all agreed them, they are journeymen, in the sense that they are competent professionals but not masters of their craft, not in the British or Wayne Barnsey context of travelling from club to club?


Perfect

You have a Stalinesque approach to determining "agreement". Efficient, I'll give you that.

[COYBIB]

Both very good industrial wingers and strong squad players to have around, but neither are good enough to be first choice in a team that has aspirations to be amongst the European elite. Comparable as squad players, they're better than most second / third choice squad players in most teams, and that was a strength when we had Shaggy, Luke, Prime Isa, Form Rob and then those lads being the bottom tier squad players. The fact that they're both potentially starters is indicative of the massive decline in the quality of our playing squad over the last number of years.

[Oldschoolsocks]

So we are all agreed them, they are journeymen, in the sense that they are competent professionals but not masters of their craft, not in the British or Wayne Barnsey context of travelling from club to club?


Perfect

You have a Stalinesque approach to determining "agreement". Efficient, I'll give you that.

Well you obviously agree that they are at least competent professionals. So you would only really disagree on them being journeymen if you think they are masters of their craft. Don't see anything unreasonable there.

[leinsterforever]

Both very good industrial wingers and strong squad players to have around, but neither are good enough to be first choice in a team that has aspirations to be amongst the European elite. Comparable as squad players, they're better than most second / third choice squad players in most teams, and that was a strength when we had Shaggy, Luke, Prime Isa, Form Rob and then those lads being the bottom tier squad players. The fact that they're both potentially starters is indicative of the massive decline in the quality of our playing squad over the last number of years.

So, it would be impossible for a team to win Europe with players like, say, Brad Barritt and Chris Wyles as starters?

[Oldschoolsocks]

Both very good industrial wingers and strong squad players to have around, but neither are good enough to be first choice in a team that has aspirations to be amongst the European elite. Comparable as squad players, they're better than most second / third choice squad players in most teams, and that was a strength when we had Shaggy, Luke, Prime Isa, Form Rob and then those lads being the bottom tier squad players. The fact that they're both potentially starters is indicative of the massive decline in the quality of our playing squad over the last number of years.

So, it would be impossible for a team to win Europe with players like, say, Brad Barritt and Chris Wyles as starters?

Don't think that's really what COYBIB was saying, but obviously any team with Brad Barritt would have zero chance of winning a European cup, just like a team with Shaun Payne and Trevor Halstead would never get within an asses roar of winning a Heineken cup. Or a team with Ben Cohen and Mike Tindall would never win a World Cup.

[leinsterforever]

Don't think that's really what COYBIB was saying, but obviously any team with Brad Barritt would have zero chance of winning a European cup, just like a team with Shaun Payne and Trevor Halstead would never get within an asses roar of winning a Heineken cup. Or a team with Ben Cohen and Mike Tindall would never win a World Cup.

Well, in addition to starting half of the group games in 2010/2011, McFadden started five out of six pool games, the semi-final and the final in 2011/2012. Since McFadden actually was a starter in a team that WON the competition, COYBIB's assertion that "neither are good enough to be first choice in a team that has aspirations to be amongst the European elite" has no real basis in reality.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Don't think that's really what COYBIB was saying, but obviously any team with Brad Barritt would have zero chance of winning a European cup, just like a team with Shaun Payne and Trevor Halstead would never get within an asses roar of winning a Heineken cup. Or a team with Ben Cohen and Mike Tindall would never win a World Cup.

Well, in addition to starting half of the group games in 2010/2011, McFadden started five out of six pool games, the semi-final and the final in 2011/2012. Since McFadden actually was a starter in a team that WON the competition, COYBIB's assertion that "neither are good enough to be first choice in a team that has aspirations to be amongst the European elite" has no real basis in reality.

If what you are saying that a team with ambitions on winning the ERC requires good honest pros as well as the odd superstar then I have to agree.

Not trying to put words in COYBIBs mouth, I think he's lamenting the fact that we no longer have the magic of Shaggy, Luke, Prime Isa and Form Rob in the back three, and therefore lack a cutting edge out wide.

[bails]

Did I hear a rumour that we are on the cusp of signing a German carpenter ?

Anyone know what position us he and is he NIQ

[cormac]

Did I hear a rumour that we are on the cusp of signing a German carpenter ?

Anyone know what position us he and is he NIQ

Zimmermann?

[Peg Leg]

Did I hear a rumour that we are on the cusp of signing a German carpenter ?

Anyone know what position us he and is he NIQ

Zimmermann?

Good Hans I heard.