Outhalf crisis

[wixfjord]

My issue is fairly obvious; we don't have our first three choices available now- nor are likely to have so or some weeks and our fourth choice is green and patently not the finished article yet. So we don't have adequate basic cover for the position.

Do you know something about Sexton that Leo doesn't?

[wixfjord]

I can understand (albeit not agree with) the call to bring in a joker if Sexton really is out until the 6N.

But calling for a joker with Sexton AND Byrne available is just far fetched and unnecessary.

[curates_egg]

I wasn't reacting to anyone. I was just making a sarcastic comment about the ridiculous situation surrounding Sexton, which is discussed nowhere. I haven't encountered any disagreement with the notion that this is a wholly unsatisfactory situation for Leinster - there just seems to be a taboo around it being discussed in the open (whether by Leinster, in the media, in commentary - online or otherwise).
I'm afraid you might be guilty of projectionism, judging by the tone of your reply.

It's been discussed in every media conference for the last two weeks. Leo mentioned last week that he's working in the sports clinic in Santry and they're hoping to have him back for Munster.

http://www.98fm.com/Leo-Cullen-Hopeful- ... e-Fixtures
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/l ... 78750.html

This was referenced across the media, and was discussed on here too! Some taboo subject!

That is not actually discussing the issue I was referring to at all. Those articles you posted are just a discussion of the singular question of whether/when Sexton might be available (not the structural limitation on his availability under the current contractual arrangement). I'm not sure why you are referring to what we discuss on here, as (with all respect to us), it's not really that relevant in terms of changing anything.

Listen, I totally hope you are right and this thread is a complete waste of time and Byrne sails through this weekend fit and Sexton is back for the Munster game and remains fit for us through the January round. I definitely hope I have egg on my face in that regard. We are not going to sign a better outhalf than a fit, available and on-form Sexton.
All I can go on is the evidence I have - 3 injured out halves (the first choice chronically and the second choice likely out until February) - and it doesn't fill me with much confidence.
I do think it is great that so many people have such faith in youth and AIL players that they believe they could just slot in at the highest level. It is great to have such faith in the system.

One of the real issues with Sexton's fitness is that there has been so much obfuscation, it is hard to have any kind of optimistic trust in those talking about him. It is also clear that Leinster are in a difficult situation regarding his contractual situation.

[wixfjord]

I wasn't reacting to anyone. I was just making a sarcastic comment about the ridiculous situation surrounding Sexton, which is discussed nowhere. I haven't encountered any disagreement with the notion that this is a wholly unsatisfactory situation for Leinster - there just seems to be a taboo around it being discussed in the open (whether by Leinster, in the media, in commentary - online or otherwise).
I'm afraid you might be guilty of projectionism, judging by the tone of your reply.

It's been discussed in every media conference for the last two weeks. Leo mentioned last week that he's working in the sports clinic in Santry and they're hoping to have him back for Munster.

http://www.98fm.com/Leo-Cullen-Hopeful- ... e-Fixtures
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/l ... 78750.html

This was referenced across the media, and was discussed on here too! Some taboo subject!

That is not actually discussing the issue I was referring to at all. Those articles you posted are just a discussion of the singular question of whether/when Sexton might be available (not the structural limitation on his availability under the current contractual arrangement). I'm not sure why you are referring to what we discuss on here, as (with all respect to us), it's not really that relevant in terms of changing anything.

Listen, I totally hope you are right and this thread is a complete waste of time and Byrne sails through this weekend fit and Sexton is back for the Munster game and remains fit for us through the January round. I definitely hope I have egg on my face in that regard. We are not going to sign a better outhalf than a fit, available and on-form Sexton.
All I can go on is the evidence I have - 3 injured out halves (the first choice chronically and the second choice likely out until February) - and it doesn't fill me with much confidence.
I do think it is great that so many people have such faith in youth and AIL players that they believe they could just slot in at the highest level. It is great to have such faith in the system.

You mean the same thing that's in place for every centrally contracted player?
You're making a serious mountain out of a molehill, but in any case, talk of a 'break for Sexton' has been discussed at length in the media also!

[curates_egg]

[As I see it we get the services of a world class (when fit) OH, with his wage bill being picked up by someone else

I totally get that. That is the glass half full view of the arrangement.
Sadly, I'm a glass half empty man. So I see the fact that we have limited control over the first choice player in - arguably - the most important position on the team...and I do have concerns about his general fitness (beyond individual injuries).

[goreyguy]

I wasn't reacting to anyone. I was just making a sarcastic comment about the ridiculous situation surrounding Sexton, which is discussed nowhere. I haven't encountered any disagreement with the notion that this is a wholly unsatisfactory situation for Leinster - there just seems to be a taboo around it being discussed in the open (whether by Leinster, in the media, in commentary - online or otherwise).
I'm afraid you might be guilty of projectionism, judging by the tone of your reply.

It's been discussed in every media conference for the last two weeks. Leo mentioned last week that he's working in the sports clinic in Santry and they're hoping to have him back for Munster.

http://www.98fm.com/Leo-Cullen-Hopeful- ... e-Fixtures
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/l ... 78750.html

This was referenced across the media, and was discussed on here too! Some taboo subject!

That is not actually discussing the issue I was referring to at all. Those articles you posted are just a discussion of the singular question of whether/when Sexton might be available (not the structural limitation on his availability under the current contractual arrangement). I'm not sure why you are referring to what we discuss on here, as (with all respect to us), it's not really that relevant in terms of changing anything.

Listen, I totally hope you are right and this thread is a complete waste of time and Byrne sails through this weekend fit and Sexton is back for the Munster game and remains fit for us through the January round. I definitely hope I have egg on my face in that regard. We are not going to sign a better outhalf than a fit, available and on-form Sexton.
All I can go on is the evidence I have - 3 injured out halves (the first choice chronically and the second choice likely out until February) - and it doesn't fill me with much confidence.
I do think it is great that so many people have such faith in youth and AIL players that they believe they could just slot in at the highest level. It is great to have such faith in the system.

One of the real issues with Sexton's fitness is that there has been so much obfuscation, it is hard to have any kind of optimistic trust in those talking about him. It is also clear that Leinster are in a difficult situation regarding his contractual situation.

You mean the IRFU paying it for them?

[curates_egg]

You mean the same thing that's in place for every centrally contracted player?
You're making a serious mountain out of a molehill, but in any case, talk of a 'break for Sexton' has been discussed at length in the media also!

The break has but not the implications of that for Leinster and the nature of this contractual arrangement for Leinster. It is all discussed through the prism of the Irish team. As a Leinster fan, that is not my priority right now.
It is also not realistic to compare Sexton's arrangement with those of our other centrally contracted players. He is the first choice for the most important position on the team for which the back-up are talented kids (of whom two are now injured and we only have one left standing). He is chronically injured and his availability to us is micro-managed. The only other comparable situation at the club is that of SOB - but he is in a position that is not as central to the success of the team and where we are loaded with proven back-up.

[curates_egg]

You mean the IRFU paying it for them?

See my post above. That is the upside of the arrangement.
The downside is that we have a chronically inured player in the most important position on the team, whose availability we have limited control over and where the youthful and promising back-ups are now also injured.

[wixfjord]

You mean the same thing that's in place for every centrally contracted player?
You're making a serious mountain out of a molehill, but in any case, talk of a 'break for Sexton' has been discussed at length in the media also!

The break has but not the implications of that for Leinster and the nature of this contractual arrangement for Leinster. It is all discussed through the prism of the Irish team. As a Leinster fan, that is not my priority right now.
It is also not realistic to compare Sexton's arrangement with those of our other centrally contracted players. He is the first choice for the most important position on the team for which the back-up are talented kids (of whom two are now injured and we only have one left standing). He is chronically injured and his availability to us is micro-managed. The only other comparable situation at the club is that of SOB - but he is in a position that is not as central to the success of the team and where we are loaded with proven back-up.

No, it isn't. In fact the implications for Leinster have been discussed at length in the media, and brought up consistently with Leo over the last two weeks.

Sexton's arrangement is the same as other centrally contracted players. They're employed by the IRFU and generally they dictate the terms. Leinster are 'in a difficult situation' with all international players. Sexton is no different.

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about Sexton for the last few weeks, and conveniently ignoring any of the facts of the situation while presenting it as a 'crisis' when we've been told that he will likely be back in 1/2 games!

[jezzer]

Guys, I think most of the people who post in here are savvy enough about rugby and contact sports to know that repeated hamstring strains are very troublesome things to have. If you rush back from one, you risk really aggravating it and the only way to stabilise things is to rest them and get your S&C, warmup, hydration, warmdown plans right when you start playing again.

The central contract thing is a bit of a red herring in this case, imo. If we parachute Sexton back in for the Saints game, he might well last the 80 or he might tear his hamstring off the bone, or anything in between - none of which will be good news. That isn't just a pain in the arse for the 6N, it's a pain in the arse for Leinster in the league and cup.

As most of us will already know, he needs to be shut down for a period to avoid having continuous hamstring pulls that ruin his season totally. I'm a big American Football fan and the Dolphins, who I follow, are having this very same issue with their star receiver. They're trying to be careful with bringing him back to play, but even then he's tweaking his hammys in training and warmups and games. I think their S&C head is even an ex Leinster guy, ironically.

[leinsterforever]

If your issue is that Byrne and Marsh aren't good enough, then getting someone in for two months isn't going to do much good. Your short-term signing would be leaving just as Sexton and Carbery were being called away for the 6N.

My issue is fairly obvious; we don't have our first three choices available now- nor are likely to have so or some weeks and our fourth choice is green and patently not the finished article yet. So we don't have adequate basic cover for the position. Even in a best case scenario where Sexton comes back after our still very important ECC match next week- and Carberry recovers speedily from what looks like a serious injury- and our very much third choice, Marsh is also available, (a lot of "ifs")- we will be relying on flogging them all beyond what is advisable on rehabilitation grounds at a crucial part of our season. This builds up our risk to "events".

Even if (another bloody one!) Ross Byrne becomes all he can be and plays great in the next period, we are still very vulnerable to long term damage to our season due to over playing the rehabbing 'senior' players or/ and asking far too much of academy novices. And we don't have to do this. We can look for a short termer.

I love to see new players get a chance, once it doesn't damage the team's chances to win. But jaysus- the fetishisation of the academy gets irritating. It's a tool in our box, not an end in itself.


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I could understand it if frontline players were going to be absent for half a season or something, but I just don't think it would be the best option given the timeframes involved. We'd be getting injured players back just as this potential signing was getting into the swing of things. And what if Carbery and Sexton went down again after the short-term signing had left, and Byrne had to be thrown into a European QF without the experience he'd have garnered if there was no joker brought in? For me, the best approach is to bite the bullet and back Byrne. It's not as if winning and bringing through new players have to be mutually exclusive either. Yes, picking Byrne is an investment in the future, but I think he's a very handy player at the moment as well.

[Ruckedtobits]

I very much doubt is Leo, Girv and Lancaster have watched this unveil without considerable discussion. In August, they faced into a Season where they recognised that they would be without their starting out-half (Sexton) for about 18 weeks - almost 50%. At that point they probably hoped that either Marsh or Byrne, both of whom had played in the Pro12, would come through to make up for the departure of Mads. Eh voila, Joey Carbery grabs the opportunity and jumps at least 2 places in the pecking order.

Fast forward to the November in Belfield. With Sexton and Carbery in Irish Camp throughout November and Marsh injured since October, Leo, Girv and Lancs had an entire month (in fact almost 6 weeks) to watch Ross Byrne and Jimmy O'Brien run backlines opposite each other or to decide whether the EPCR Regulations afforded the opportunity to recruit cover at OH. By mid-November, when Jonno's injuries / doubts were beginning to be apparent in Irish Camp, the three Coaches had a fair few options available to them. They are a smart group and they decided that, notwithstanding Sexton's injury and thus the risk that loss of Joey could create a crisis, they had sufficient cover at No 10.

Personally, I believe they have, if our pack fronts up in this game on Saturday. That is not a given as anybody who re-watches last Friday's game will acknowledge. But if our pack can up their game in maul and line-out, we can deprive Saints of any possession with which they can damage us. If we do that, Byrne, or Isa, or O'Brien, can run the game from 10 with the hand-brake off and the engine almost in neutral. This is not a good Saints team. It is definitely not a good Saints backline. Win the battle and the points will come.

It is definitely not a given, but it will not depend on our No 10 playing out of his skin. It will depend on the team delivering with tempo, effectiveness and ruthless efficiency. IMO, they will do that.

[Oldschool]

Guys, I think most of the people who post in here are savvy enough about rugby and contact sports to know that repeated hamstring strains are very troublesome things to have. If you rush back from one, you risk really aggravating it and the only way to stabilise things is to rest them and get your S&C, warmup, hydration, warmdown plans right when you start playing again.

The central contract thing is a bit of a red herring in this case, imo. If we parachute Sexton back in for the Saints game, he might well last the 80 or he might tear his hamstring off the bone, or anything in between - none of which will be good news. That isn't just a pain in the arse for the 6N, it's a pain in the arse for Leinster in the league and cup.

As most of us will already know, he needs to be shut down for a period to avoid having continuous hamstring pulls that ruin his season totally. I'm a big American Football fan and the Dolphins, who I follow, are having this very same issue with their star receiver. They're trying to be careful with bringing him back to play, but even then he's tweaking his hammys in training and warmups and games. I think their S&C head is even an ex Leinster guy, ironically.

Your post is spot on.
In addition we need to find another penio taker to reduce the pressure on that muscle area.
The whole discussion re a replacement is absolutely pertinent.
JS is not going to stay fit for the remainder of the season which means we are likely to have another injury crisis at 10., mod likely post 6Ns with European QF and SF matches looming ie the business end of the season.
That been the case we should at the very list have a short list of possible replacements.

[desperado]

Some serious Chicken Lickens with crystal balls on here.

[Oldschool]

Some serious Chicken Lickens with crystal balls on here.

If experience has taught us anything it has taught us the value of experience.
ref:- Oldschool - Experience.

[johng]

Some serious Chicken Lickens with crystal balls on here.

And some of them are drama queens too.

[Oldschool]

Some serious Chicken Lickens with crystal balls on here.

And some of them are drama queens too.

Just as well it's only a crisis.

[rdsblue]

I think Mallinder will tell Callum Clarke, Wood, Picamoles (if he plays) et al to go after Ross Byrne from the start and try to put him out of the game. If this happens early on Leinster have to decide do we put Isa in to 10 and bring on O'Loughlin or replace Byrne with Noel Reid? Personally, I'd bring on Reid as O''Loughlin probably gives us better options off the bench to make a real impact late in the game. Hopefully our pack will be able to protect RB but we lost 3 players to injury last week and that was without Clarke, who is a nasty piece of work, playing.

[Oldschool]

I think Mallinder will tell Callum Clarke, Wood, Picamoles (if he plays) et al to go after Ross Byrne from the start and try to put him out of the game. If this happens early on Leinster have to decide do we put Isa in to 10 and bring on O'Loughlin or replace Byrne with Noel Reid? Personally, I'd bring on Reid as O''Loughlin probably gives us better options off the bench to make a real impact late in the game. Hopefully our pack will be able to protect RB but we lost 3 players to injury last week and that was without Clarke, who is a nasty piece of work, playing.

A couple of breaks, early on, by Luke might scupper that plan.

[leinsterforever]

Slight tangent, but it'll be interesting to see how Marsh gets on when he returns from injury. I think he only has about 20 mins under his belt this season, so not much to go on so far. He disappeared out of a few games last season, and didn't show much of an aptitude for tactical kicking. He did show some good form early on in 2015/2016, though, putting people in space quite nicely. The collective attacking play is much better this season than last, which I think is down to the implementation of Henry's structure, so it should be easier for individuals to shine