Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

[janeymac08]

I'd say its a lot simpler than you are trying to make out.

1. Joe & Nucifora asked Leo if one of the 10s in Leinster would be interested in a move to Ulster and they needed to know quickly because Ulster wanted to sign a NIQ player.
2. Neither lads were. Questions being asked about Joey as Joe's No. 2 OH not actually playing there at all for Leinster.
3. Joey contacted Joe to meet with him and his Dad for a chat. I presume Joe must have said that he would prefer if he was getting gametime at 10 if he wanted to be OH backup at world cup.
4. Van Graan put out feelers for Munster.
5. Joe announced squad going to Australia which included Ross Byrne and which put the frighteners up Joey that Ross Byrne might take his place on the plane to Japan.
6. Joey decided that the best thing for his career was to move to Munster where he would be playing alongside Conor Murray the first choice Ireland 9 rather than being sub to Rob Kearney at Leinster at fullback.

Joey had to move to get to play in the position he wanted to play in as its obvious that Leinster rate Ross Byrne as a better OH. There is a good chance he could be back to Leinster, but only if Ross Byrne doesn't make it. Having made the break, he isn't going to return to be RB's backup in 2 years time.

Munster have been a bit unlucky with OHs. Johnny Holland (home grown talent) would be just coming into his prime now if he didn't have to retire due to injury (not to mention Tyler's unfortunate injury record), so please, less of the Munster isn't developing players - it does. It just has been very unfortunate with players that are not up to it physically.

[MelbourneRebel]

I'd say its a lot simpler than you are trying to make out.

1. Joe & Nucifora asked Leo if one of the 10s in Leinster would be interested in a move to Ulster and they needed to know quickly because Ulster wanted to sign a NIQ player.
2. Neither lads were. Questions being asked about Joey as Joe's No. 2 OH not actually playing there at all for Leinster.
3. Joey contacted Joe to meet with him and his Dad for a chat. I presume Joe must have said that he would prefer if he was getting gametime at 10 if he wanted to be OH backup at world cup.
4. Van Graan put out feelers for Munster.
5. Joe announced squad going to Australia which included Ross Byrne and which put the frighteners up Joey that Ross Byrne might take his place on the plane to Japan.
6. Joey decided that the best thing for his career was to move to Munster where he would be playing alongside Conor Murray the first choice Ireland 9 rather than being sub to Rob Kearney at Leinster at fullback.

Joey had to move to get to play in the position he wanted to play in as its obvious that Leinster rate Ross Byrne as a better OH. There is a good chance he could be back to Leinster, but only if Ross Byrne doesn't make it. Having made the break, he isn't going to return to be RB's backup in 2 years time.

Munster have been a bit unlucky with OHs. Johnny Holland (home grown talent) would be just coming into his prime now if he didn't have to retire due to injury (not to mention Tyler's unfortunate injury record), so please, less of the Munster isn't developing players - it does. It just has been very unfortunate with players that are not up to it physically.

Spot on.

Some of the reactions are just driven by partisanship.

It's a brave decision from Joey and he is taking control of his career. I hope he dazzles in a Munster team which still finishes behind Leinster on all fronts.

[janeymac08]

It was Carbery's decision. But it was also an engineered situation that unsettled him. There's a strong pull there from Munster but they've also not been shy about trying it on to leverage the doibts of a young player on the way up.

They were aggressively after Fitzgerald for a long time. They persuaded Felix Jones to leave, Conway too. Jones and Conway spent more time on the bench at first than the guys who had been behind them in the depthchart.

They go after the high profile guys which is also why they passed on Copeland and Beirne on the way out of Leinster.

It's really expensive to recruit that way but they havent been paying the full price. Every time a province has been forced to develop talent they've done it, sometimes after a delay. Have we all noticed that Ireland isnt full of foreign props any more? Munster's academy is being reset again precisely because they dont believe that they HAVE TO produce Munster's team. Their academy is their backup plan and they've officially given up on Johnston and Hanrahan now.

Munster offered Luke a contract when Leinster were not willing to do so. Leinster wanted him to go into the Leinster Academy rather than get a contract. Having played for Cork Con, Luke's Dad had plenty of contacts down in Munster (oh and lets not forget, Luke started playing rugby in Cork Con before the family moved back to Dublin).

Felix Jones would have been behind Rob Kearney, so it was logical for him not to stay in Leinster if he wanted to progress his career. Andrew Conway's career had stalled in Leinster - he needed a change.

Munster haven't given up on Johnson - he just got a new contract. Just Munster is a bit weary with his injury profile (not to mention Johnny Holland and Tyler's injury record).

Edit: and while we are at it. Jordi Murphy was not offered a new contract by Leinster and that he why he moved to Belfast.

[ronk]

Maybe we should have played him at 10 when available this season. We knew the predicament he was in.

We had our reasons of course and the trophies back that up.

Base our team selections on fear of Munster poaching our players rather than winning games?
Interesting.

Of course not. But the consequence is we can't expect an aspiring international 10 with the ambition to be the best in the world to be happy to be #3 in the pecking order. You can't keep everybody happy. That's just the way it is.

Despite all the conspiracy theories here, the most likely situation is that Carbery wasn't instructed to move but informed his international hopes would be damaged if he's not playing at 10 regularly. He made the decision for his career.

On a side note, I don't think that selecting Carbery at 10 ahead of Byrne would have damaged our chances of winning games. But if people feel that it would have then we can have no complaints. Personally I think we made a mistake not prioritising Carbery at 10 in 2018 as the prospect of what eventually transpired was obvious. I wouldn't be critical of Cullen at all though as ultimately he delivered spectacular success this year.

Carbery wasn’t 3rd choice and he was picked for the big games.

Not having Carbery at 15 may have damaged our chances though. I think playing him at 15 at the start of the season was a good move. He was away for 5 months which meant there were very few chances to start him at 10. His versatility has locked him into the Irish match day 23 and would have been his route to compete with Jackson, if he was still in the picture. He’s benefited from playing 15, that shouldn’t be lost.

[Oldschoolsocks]

...
Edit: and while we are at it. Jordi Murphy was not offered a new contract by Leinster and that he why he moved to Belfast.

So, where are you getting that Jordi wasn’t offered a new contract from?

Just a link please

Thx...

[MelbourneRebel]

Carbery wasn’t 3rd choice and he was picked for the big games.

He was and that's why he left

[suisse]

Is this guy actually claiming Leinster didn't want to keep 27 year old Jordi Murphy, he of 100+ Leinster caps and a certainty to travel to Japan if fit? The same Murphy who would later start a European Cup Final?

[Blueberry]

Don't buy that Jordi wasn't going to be offered a new contract and part of me wondering how much meddling was involved by Nucifora / Joe in light of the Carbery incident.

[janeymac08]

...
Edit: and while we are at it. Jordi Murphy was not offered a new contract by Leinster and that he why he moved to Belfast.

So, where are you getting that Jordi wasn’t offered a new contract from?

Just a link please

Thx...

It was said on one of the podcasts (probably Luke's).

Just remember the sequence of his signing for Ulster at the beginning of December. He was not getting selected for Leinster (competition from Conan, JdeV, Leavy, Ruddock with Sean O'Brien and Jamie Heaslip (who had recently signed a new 3 year contract) to come back from injury. He didn't make Joe's November squad as well which probably encouraged him to go to Ulster rather than Leicester to keep his Ireland options open. It doesn't look like a great decision now by Leinster not to offer him a new contract with Heaslip & SOB not available so much.

[Oldschoolsocks]

So, it was said by Jordi on Luke’s podcast that he was t being offered a contract?

Can you remember which on?? Don’t remember hearing that one tbh

[CiaranIrl]

...
Edit: and while we are at it. Jordi Murphy was not offered a new contract by Leinster and that he why he moved to Belfast.

So, where are you getting that Jordi wasn’t offered a new contract from?

Just a link please

Thx...

It was said on one of the podcasts (probably Luke's).

Just remember the sequence of his signing for Ulster at the beginning of December. He was not getting selected for Leinster (competition from Conan, JdeV, Leavy, Ruddock with Sean O'Brien and Jamie Heaslip (who had recently signed a new 3 year contract) to come back from injury. He didn't make Joe's November squad as well which probably encouraged him to go to Ulster rather than Leicester to keep his Ireland options open. It doesn't look like a great decision now by Leinster not to offer him a new contract with Heaslip & SOB not available so much.

He was absolutely offered a contract. Stop talking through your hole.

[janeymac08]

Base our team selections on fear of Munster poaching our players rather than winning games?
Interesting.

Of course not. But the consequence is we can't expect an aspiring international 10 with the ambition to be the best in the world to be happy to be #3 in the pecking order. You can't keep everybody happy. That's just the way it is.

Despite all the conspiracy theories here, the most likely situation is that Carbery wasn't instructed to move but informed his international hopes would be damaged if he's not playing at 10 regularly. He made the decision for his career.

On a side note, I don't think that selecting Carbery at 10 ahead of Byrne would have damaged our chances of winning games. But if people feel that it would have then we can have no complaints. Personally I think we made a mistake not prioritising Carbery at 10 in 2018 as the prospect of what eventually transpired was obvious. I wouldn't be critical of Cullen at all though as ultimately he delivered spectacular success this year.

Carbery wasn’t 3rd choice and he was picked for the big games.

Not having Carbery at 15 may have damaged our chances though. I think playing him at 15 at the start of the season was a good move. He was away for 5 months which meant there were very few chances to start him at 10. His versatility has locked him into the Irish match day 23 and would have been his route to compete with Jackson, if he was still in the picture. He’s benefited from playing 15, that shouldn’t be lost.

All good for Leinster, but possibly not for the player himself and for Joe Schmidt. If Joey's preferred playing position is 10, he needs to concentrate on it now. Grand for a few years while getting used to playing at a higher level, but for his own career he needs to concentrate on one position or end up like Ian Madigan. It will get him a chance to make the 23, but he will never make the starting 15 as a utility back.

[artaneboy]

Maybe we should have played him at 10 when available this season. We knew the predicament he was in.

We had our reasons of course and the trophies back that up.

There’s something in that- and I think there were at least a couple of games where he could have been slotted in at 10, and you’d wonder were the management straining to prove a point - and was that wise!

But to be honest, I think that the immutable weight of the ‘three into two’ equation wasn’t going to work. The only question was probably, which of Ross or Joey went... and where to?

I really think we need to focus on getting him back in two years time- not carp on now. Screaming and wailing that ‘he’ll never come back’ us a self fulfilling prophecy. It makes you seem smart- or rather cynical (which is virtually a synonym for “intelligence” in Ireland) but doesn’t help.


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[artaneboy]

It was Carbery's decision. But it was also an engineered situation that unsettled him. There's a strong pull there from Munster but they've also not been shy about trying it on to leverage the doibts of a young player on the way up.

They were aggressively after Fitzgerald for a long time. They persuaded Felix Jones to leave, Conway too. Jones and Conway spent more time on the bench at first than the guys who had been behind them in the depthchart.

They go after the high profile guys which is also why they passed on Copeland and Beirne on the way out of Leinster.

It's really expensive to recruit that way but they havent been paying the full price. Every time a province has been forced to develop talent they've done it, sometimes after a delay. Have we all noticed that Ireland isnt full of foreign props any more? Munster's academy is being reset again precisely because they dont believe that they HAVE TO produce Munster's team. Their academy is their backup plan and they've officially given up on Johnston and Hanrahan now.

Munster offered Luke a contract when Leinster were not willing to do so. Leinster wanted him to go into the Leinster Academy rather than get a contract. Having played for Cork Con, Luke's Dad had plenty of contacts down in Munster (oh and lets not forget, Luke started playing rugby in Cork Con before the family moved back to Dublin).

Felix Jones would have been behind Rob Kearney, so it was logical for him not to stay in Leinster if he wanted to progress his career. Andrew Conway's career had stalled in Leinster - he needed a change.

Munster haven't given up on Johnson - he just got a new contract. Just Munster is a bit weary with his injury profile (not to mention Johnny Holland and Tyler's injury record).

Edit: and while we are at it. Jordi Murphy was not offered a new contract by Leinster and that he why he moved to Belfast.

Most of that is correct- or not worth an argument. But not the Conway claim: he was not stalled, he was ahead of schedule, but was just impatient.

Ironically it took he the same length to establish himself at Munster as would likely have been the case here.

Still a bit sour on that.

Edit: didn’t notice the Jordi contract claim. That’s a surprise- but to be honest he was seen as well down the chart in Leinster when the choice to move was made.

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[outcast eddie]

It seems to have been missed that with Ross Byrne's (deserved) inclusion in the Ireland squad we are potentially facing a greater scarcity of out halves during international windows next season than last.

Do we need to look for another 10 or will Frawley produce the goods?

[janeymac08]

So, it was said by Jordi on Luke’s podcast that he was t being offered a contract?

Can you remember which on?? Don’t remember hearing that one tbh

Sorry I can't remember. It could have been on the Hard Yards as well (the podcasts I occasionally listen to). I don't think it was on Off the Ball as it would be talked about a lot more.

I don't know why anyone is surprised that Leinster would let him go bearing in mind that his form wasn't great (due to his injury) and Conan, VdeF and Leavy were pulling up trees with SOB & Heislip still there.

[ronk]

One of the consequences now is that future star players will be less willing to go through the development program their coaches think they need. Coaches will be pressured to throw players in at the deep end at the price if seeing talent sink. This will hurt the Irish team.

Munster don't give a toss, they are not sentimental. They got Copeland on the strength of his Ireland ambitiin when he was fit and playing well. But they have shiny new signings like Beirne and Botha so they ship him out. Carbery is going to a pool of 5 senior outhalves, so they're happy to toss one out. Their sauad is full of guys who were sold a story and moved there in the hope of making the Irish team. Most of these guys have given more to Munster than they got in return.

[thecomedian]

One of the consequences now is that future star players will be less willing to go through the development program their coaches think they need. Coaches will be pressured to throw players in at the deep end at the price if seeing talent sink. This will hurt the Irish team.

Munster don't give a toss, they are not sentimental. They got Copeland on the strength of his Ireland ambitiin when he was fit and playing well. But they have shiny new signings like Beirne and Botha so they ship him out. Carbery is going to a pool of 5 senior outhalves, so they're happy to toss one out. Their sauad is full of guys who were sold a story and moved there in the hope of making the Irish team. Most of these guys have given more to Munster than they got in return.

There is the argument that if they are good enough then play them. All the best players play straight away, they didn’t need any special development.

The likes of Joey and Ross need games from now on. All young players will make mistakes during games (with the exception of Ryan) but that’s the best way to learn.




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[Oldschoolsocks]

So, it was said by Jordi on Luke’s podcast that he was t being offered a contract?

Can you remember which on?? Don’t remember hearing that one tbh

Sorry I can't remember. It could have been on the Hard Yards as well (the podcasts I occasionally listen to). I don't think it was on Off the Ball as it would be talked about a lot more.

I don't know why anyone is surprised that Leinster would let him go bearing in mind that his form wasn't great (due to his injury) and Conan, VdeF and Leavy were pulling up trees with SOB & Heislip still there.

Good stuff, can you remember who the source was though?? Was it Jordi making a statement or some clueless pundit offering his/her opinion?

[Blueberry]

Munster are desperate and will grab anything they can even if it dilutes the core strength of Munster rugby. The last few years of Leinster success has killed them and their succession of underachieving coaches are grabbing at straws. What is disappointing is that the IRFU don't realise that Munster has to rebuild from the ground up give preference to local players even if the quality is not obviously there. If they just turn into a dumping ground for Leinster players struggling to get game time in Leinster and Carbery like moves done for very limited national aims it devalues their povince and opens them to ridicule. Long term it also damages Leinster as we need a strong Munster Munster.