Leinster Squad 19-20

[blockhead]

Salanoa is a Liddy/EOS project isn't he? Munster was always the goal I'd imagine.

[hugonaut]

Apparently you can zitch Aungier from that list - he's going to the land of arts council grants

Purple cords with a 38" waist waiting for him in the changing room. Pair of Birkenstocks under the bench. Bottle of Buckfast in the locker. Clannad in the Discman.

[Dave Cahill]

Apparently you can zitch Aungier from that list - he's going to the land of arts council grants

Purple cords with a 38" waist waiting for him in the changing room. Pair of Birkenstocks under the bench. Bottle of Buckfast in the locker. Clannad in the Discman.

Ozric Tentacles or Gong

[errlloyd]

I think some of you have lost sight of the fact that the IRFU own 4 franchises, Leinster and Munster being 2 of the 4.
These franchises were set up with one goal in mind, to improve the international team.
This is something that has been a massive success, with Ireland winning a number of triple crowns, 6 nations and grand slams since the inception of the concept of these franchises.

I think the fruit of any labour off the pitch should be shared between provinces. If the Leinster academy can produce 10 pros a year and Connacht can only produce 3, then the IRFU should invest more in Leinster on the general assumption that it'll be shared with Connacht. (Rather than the IRFU investing equally in the two academies and missing out on Leinster born prospects because of capacity issues).

The problem is the perception that the effort being put in on the field is not being shared equally. The Leinster coaches play more young players while other provinces (who to be fair are often in more of a scramble) tend to stick to their internationals or experienced pros.

There are lots of things that contribute to this. One is that Leinster have more quality professional ready players coming through, another is that Leinster have a better squad so they can pad youngsters with good players more easily. Another advantage Leinster have had of late is that many teams in the league are beginning to roll over for us. With 6 teams making the playoffs it actually isn't worth it for a mid-table team to "waste" international player minutes losing to Leinster when they can deploy those minutes beating another mid-table team instead. So Ospreys won't send a first team to Dublin when they can send it to Edinburgh or Belfast instead. Which sort of gives us more opportunities to blood youngters.

The point is the perception at the moment is that Leinster fans watch a lot of second string rugby while other provinces play first team players. It doesn't feel like we are all investing equally on the pitch. As Irish fans we almost get double robbed. Other provinces get to benefit from our player investment while not investing themselves, and Irish internationals from other provinces are less rested when it comes to wearing the green jersey.

Now as I said there are institutional reasons why this happens. I am sure Ulster coaches would love to be in a position where they could play a pack of teenagers and still win week in week out. But teams target them, so it is harder.

[The Doc]

Hi Guys,

Long time no chat.
Don’t worry, my visit is just to say a quick hello.

I seen the article about Munster’s latest signing, and said I’d check out how it was received over here.
I am not shocked by your responses, but more a bit concerned.

I think some of you have lost sight of the fact that the IRFU own 4 franchises, Leinster and Munster being 2 of the 4.
These franchises were set up with one goal in mind, to improve the international team.
This is something that has been a massive success, with Ireland winning a number of triple crowns, 6 nations and grand slams since the inception of the concept of these franchises.

The IRFU have taken the line that in order for these franchises to accomplish their goals, then they need the best players playing as often as possible, thus a wise decision was made to spread the talent across the 4 franchises as much as possible, and try to remove bottle necks which is limiting players progression.
This has seen many players move from one province to another, not all of the flow has been from Leinster to Munster as many on here seem to believe.
We have also seen players leave Munster to head to other provinces, although not in massive numbers, as Munster are unlikely to have the same surplus as the likes of Leinster for obvious reasons.

We have also seen Leinster players move from Leinster to Ulster and Connacht, but for some reason these transfers are acceptable?

On Munster developing players, they do develop good quality players, and this development has definitely improved lately, but they will never develop the same numbers as Leinster, as we do not have the population.
Saying that, in general, if you look at the match day 23 from this season for each of the 4 franchises, then you will see that Munster are generally in the top 2 when it comes to fielding home grown players, but that would not fit the narrative of the vocal minority of Leinster fans.

I hope all of your families and loved ones are safe and healthy during this troubling time.

Ciao for now.

Hi there.

My view - I don't have a problem with players moving. Particularly those who are already established and want more 1st team gametime (which most of those who headed up North). What I struggle with is players who have been developed and are on a pathway and (in my view) will develop quicker at the Leinster academy, being asked to move to a situation where the development structure isn't in place to systematically bring new talent through. The danger is that he ends up sitting on the A team bench for half the season.

I also don't understand why the other academies don't look at the talent Leinster don't take - there is max of a half dozen (or so) that are taken into the Leinster academy every year. Very often the decision is driven by what positions need to be filled in the academy - so there is a significant pool which the other academies could easily tap into and develop. But instead it seems they to be looking for the Leinster academy to do the hard work and then step in - which is just wasting the Leinster resources put into player development. It would be a bit different if there was any confidence or history of Munster bringing early stage players through to the first team.

If this is the way they want to go, why not disband the other academies and double the Leinster one - but who wants that

[Twist]

Hi Guys,

Long time no chat.
Don’t worry, my visit is just to say a quick hello.

I seen the article about Munster’s latest signing, and said I’d check out how it was received over here.
I am not shocked by your responses, but more a bit concerned.

I think some of you have lost sight of the fact that the IRFU own 4 franchises, Leinster and Munster being 2 of the 4.
These franchises were set up with one goal in mind, to improve the international team.
This is something that has been a massive success, with Ireland winning a number of triple crowns, 6 nations and grand slams since the inception of the concept of these franchises.

The IRFU have taken the line that in order for these franchises to accomplish their goals, then they need the best players playing as often as possible, thus a wise decision was made to spread the talent across the 4 franchises as much as possible, and try to remove bottle necks which is limiting players progression.
This has seen many players move from one province to another, not all of the flow has been from Leinster to Munster as many on here seem to believe.
We have also seen players leave Munster to head to other provinces, although not in massive numbers, as Munster are unlikely to have the same surplus as the likes of Leinster for obvious reasons.

We have also seen Leinster players move from Leinster to Ulster and Connacht, but for some reason these transfers are acceptable?

On Munster developing players, they do develop good quality players, and this development has definitely improved lately, but they will never develop the same numbers as Leinster, as we do not have the population.
Saying that, in general, if you look at the match day 23 from this season for each of the 4 franchises, then you will see that Munster are generally in the top 2 when it comes to fielding home grown players, but that would not fit the narrative of the vocal minority of Leinster fans.

I hope all of your families and loved ones are safe and healthy during this troubling time.

Ciao for now.

This is one of the least persuasive posts I’ve seen here in a while.

Munster are not doing well when it comes to developing players. Craig Casey is a huge talent, and how much faith have Munster shown in him?

Well they took Nick McCarthy from Leinster to start with then tried to hold on the Alby Mathewson until the IRFU pried their hands off him. Casey has played 6 times this season, with three of those being starts. He got 12 minutes against Ospreys twice, and 2 whole minutes against Racing.

Is Nick McCarthy getting more development than he would’ve at Leinster? He got 4 starts, along with 6 minutes against Saracens and 5 against Scarlets.

Munster already have;
Stephen Archer
John Ryan
Ciaran Parker (age 24)
Kenyon Knox (age 21)

Given their proven track record for not favouring youth, and the potential in Parker and Knox, it’s highly unlikely Roman Salanoa’s development will be accelerated at Munster.

[jimbobjoe]

Hi there.

My view - I don't have a problem with players moving. Particularly those who are already established and want more 1st team gametime (which most of those who headed up North). What I struggle with is players who have been developed and are on a pathway and (in my view) will develop quicker at the Leinster academy, being asked to move to a situation where the development structure isn't in place to systematically bring new talent through. The danger is that he ends up sitting on the A team bench for half the season.

I also don't understand why the other academies don't look at the talent Leinster don't take - there is max of a half dozen (or so) that are taken into the Leinster academy every year. Very often the decision is driven by what positions need to be filled in the academy - so there is a significant pool which the other academies could easily tap into and develop. But instead it seems they to be looking for the Leinster academy to do the hard work and then step in - which is just wasting the Leinster resources put into player development. It would be a bit different if there was any confidence or history of Munster bringing early stage players through to the first team.

If this is the way they want to go, why not disband the other academies and double the Leinster one - but who wants that

This

[Pilotman123]

Can't believe I used to cheer Munster on in Europe (when not playing us of course). They are truly shameless, the soul is gone from that club.

It’s not like Salanoa is a Leinster home grown talent, he came from Hawaii

[munster#1]

I think some of you have lost sight of the fact that the IRFU own 4 franchises, Leinster and Munster being 2 of the 4.
These franchises were set up with one goal in mind, to improve the international team.
This is something that has been a massive success, with Ireland winning a number of triple crowns, 6 nations and grand slams since the inception of the concept of these franchises.

I think the fruit of any labour off the pitch should be shared between provinces. If the Leinster academy can produce 10 pros a year and Connacht can only produce 3, then the IRFU should invest more in Leinster on the general assumption that it'll be shared with Connacht. (Rather than the IRFU investing equally in the two academies and missing out on Leinster born prospects because of capacity issues).

The problem is the perception that the effort being put in on the field is not being shared equally. The Leinster coaches play more young players while other provinces (who to be fair are often in more of a scramble) tend to stick to their internationals or experienced pros.

There are lots of things that contribute to this. One is that Leinster have more quality professional ready players coming through, another is that Leinster have a better squad so they can pad youngsters with good players more easily. Another advantage Leinster have had of late is that many teams in the league are beginning to roll over for us. With 6 teams making the playoffs it actually isn't worth it for a mid-table team to "waste" international player minutes losing to Leinster when they can deploy those minutes beating another mid-table team instead. So Ospreys won't send a first team to Dublin when they can send it to Edinburgh or Belfast instead. Which sort of gives us more opportunities to blood youngters.

The point is the perception at the moment is that Leinster fans watch a lot of second string rugby while other provinces play first team players. It doesn't feel like we are all investing equally on the pitch. As Irish fans we almost get double robbed. Other provinces get to benefit from our player investment while not investing themselves, and Irish internationals from other provinces are less rested when it comes to wearing the green jersey.

Now as I said there are institutional reasons why this happens. I am sure Ulster coaches would love to be in a position where they could play a pack of teenagers and still win week in week out. But teams target them, so it is harder.

There are many items in your comment that I find interesting and I’d like to see what the factual data looks like.

It would be interesting to see how far off the mark teams like Munster Ulster and Connacht are with regards to spread minutes across the squad, and the total number of players used each season in comparison to Leinster.
I don’t know the answer, and I’m probably never going to know, but I would be surprised if the gulf is that big, or if Munster are miles behind Connacht and Ulster as intimated on here.

Another item is international player minutes, I would be concerned too if one province was playing there international’s way more than another, for 2 reasons, the province that is not paying their players as much may be leaving their internationals undercooked, and a province that is playing them too much would, as you hinted at, leave players tired.
This would be a massive failing within the IRFU, as they dictate the minutes that each international player should be playing, so I would be surprised if this is true.

At this moment in time the fact remains that Leinster are benefiting massively from their geographical location.
Right now the schools game in Leinster is so good and is so well funded that players are coming out of school ready for the pro environment, as they have essentially been living like a pro athlete already.
Not only do Leinster have the benefit of having privately funded academies within their schools game, they also have the benefit of numbers.
The more players you have in a quality system will inevitably lead to the development of a better quality end product, whereas the likes of Munster and Connacht do not have this luxury, as they are limited to the number of we’ll funded quality schools systems and by populations.

With regards to the funding issue, the big benefit to Leinster of developing so many quality players is that they are well funded in terms of centrally contracted players, with the vast majority of these players in the Leinster set up, meaning that Leinster can retain players that would most likely be outside of their budget otherwise.
I don’t know the figure, but the funding that Leinster gets for their centrally contracted players is probably more than the other 3 franchises added together.
So there is definitely a give and take from the IRFU. Produce large numbers of quality players and you will lose a few, but produce a large number of quality players and you will receive a financial incentive.

[Pilotman123]

Ah for goodness' sake. He seemed to have gotten ahead of Abdaladze and had shown some serious power in his limited gametime on the pitch. We took him in in his late teens from America (while still a baby in rugby terms), sub-academy, academy...and then robbed by Munster. They just can't produce their own players at anywhere near the required rate or quality.

Athletically Salanoa has huge potential, probably more than any other prop in Ireland. If he can nail down the scrummaging and the technical and technical stuff, he could well grow to become world class.

I think the reason Leinster did this move is because they don’t want to block any home grown talent coming through the Academy because we’ve loads of props coming through the system like Vakh Abdaladze, Thomas Clarkson, Jack Aungier and even Jack Boyle coming through...Leinster fans shouldn’t be worried we’ve loads of depth In the front row, but for Munster..they can’t seem to produce their own talent anymore, same goes with Ulster and Connacht, every other province is starting to rely on Leinster for talent

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I feared that the purse strings being tightened would lead to us losing players but tighthead wasn't an area I was worried about, thought second row and openside were the big concerns and then maybe one of the tens and TOB. Early days though, still time to lose some of them as well.

What a load of sh!t to invest so much time in such a special project and then have him taken away like that. Really gutted about Salanoa and can't understand why this move makes sense to him or the IRFU. He would have been learning off the best tighthead in the world, off Porter who had made the switch to tighthead recently, been scrummaging against one of the best looseheads in the world over the last decade or so, and been coached by a Grand Slam winner who got the most out of a deeply average set of props. For me it could be a big mistake to rock the boat for someone so raw who was developing nicely in a great environment. I don't think he's a great fit for Munster either because of Knox. If you've got one raw tighthead then why bring in another? Bring in someone more experienced and solid who can nurture Knox. I don't think it's doomed to fail, but I would be a lot more confident about Salanoa's progression if he stayed with us.

I still want to see Porter move to loosehead and believe it could be a possibility and if I'm right then that would be a another reason not to lose any tightheads. For me the dream scenario was that Porter moves to loosehead next season but covers tighthead if Furlong is unavailable, and the young tightheads developed in the background before being ready for the Champions Cup in a year's time. I realise that's just my own desire and not necessarily what the plan was but I reckon it would have worked really well.

I think Aungier is a slightly different case though, think he needed games at this stage. I'm aware of the contradiction of saying Salanoa would have benefited from being in our environment but that Aungier should go and get games, but Aungier's path has been very different and for me it's time to sink or swim. I've never been impressed with his work in the tight ever since I saw him play in school. He's really mobile (although I think he looked unfit at times) and very skillful but don't think his nuts and bolts are solid at all. I've seen him at club level a fair bit and even then he seemed to struggle in the tight. He reminds me of a Super Rugby prop who would look decent down south but then struggle up here when serious questions are asked. I suspect that he'll end up being an impact sub for them in time.

The good news is that Clarkson is an unbelievable prospect and we can really focus on him now. You never quite know how a young player will kick on but he looks as much of a sure thing as you're ever going to get. One injury to him (or the two first choice guys) though and things look very different. Vakh having an injury free and solid season is imperative now IMO.

[munster#1]

Hi Guys,

Long time no chat.
Don’t worry, my visit is just to say a quick hello.

I seen the article about Munster’s latest signing, and said I’d check out how it was received over here.
I am not shocked by your responses, but more a bit concerned.

I think some of you have lost sight of the fact that the IRFU own 4 franchises, Leinster and Munster being 2 of the 4.
These franchises were set up with one goal in mind, to improve the international team.
This is something that has been a massive success, with Ireland winning a number of triple crowns, 6 nations and grand slams since the inception of the concept of these franchises.

The IRFU have taken the line that in order for these franchises to accomplish their goals, then they need the best players playing as often as possible, thus a wise decision was made to spread the talent across the 4 franchises as much as possible, and try to remove bottle necks which is limiting players progression.
This has seen many players move from one province to another, not all of the flow has been from Leinster to Munster as many on here seem to believe.
We have also seen players leave Munster to head to other provinces, although not in massive numbers, as Munster are unlikely to have the same surplus as the likes of Leinster for obvious reasons.

We have also seen Leinster players move from Leinster to Ulster and Connacht, but for some reason these transfers are acceptable?

On Munster developing players, they do develop good quality players, and this development has definitely improved lately, but they will never develop the same numbers as Leinster, as we do not have the population.
Saying that, in general, if you look at the match day 23 from this season for each of the 4 franchises, then you will see that Munster are generally in the top 2 when it comes to fielding home grown players, but that would not fit the narrative of the vocal minority of Leinster fans.

I hope all of your families and loved ones are safe and healthy during this troubling time.

Ciao for now.

This is one of the least persuasive posts I’ve seen here in a while.

Munster are not doing well when it comes to developing players. Craig Casey is a huge talent, and how much faith have Munster shown in him?

Well they took Nick McCarthy from Leinster to start with then tried to hold on the Alby Mathewson until the IRFU pried their hands off him. Casey has played 6 times this season, with three of those being starts. He got 12 minutes against Ospreys twice, and 2 whole minutes against Racing.

Is Nick McCarthy getting more development than he would’ve at Leinster? He got 4 starts, along with 6 minutes against Saracens and 5 against Scarlets.

Munster already have;
Stephen Archer
John Ryan
Ciaran Parker (age 24)
Kenyon Knox (age 21)

Given their proven track record for not favouring youth, and the potential in Parker and Knox, it’s highly unlikely Roman Salanoa’s development will be accelerated at Munster.

The point was not to persuade anyone of anything, it was just to point out the situation that we as Irish rugby fans find ourselves in.
From the comments I have read, and I am open to correction, is that the irfu forced this move, and it was not Munster coming in and stealing a player.

I think Nick was always signed as a squad player rather than a player who would legitimately push Murray for a starting spot.
On Casey, what I am hearing is that he struggled physically this season, and his minutes were being carefully planned.
Hopefully we see him get a lot more minutes next season, and he reaches the heights that he looks capable of.

[wixfjord]

For me it could be a big mistake to rock the boat for someone so raw who was developing nicely in a great environment...I don't think it's doomed to fail, but I would be a lot more confident about Salanoa's progression if he stayed with us.

This is a really important point being missed. I just can't see how this is good for Salanoa at all? He needs solid coaching and to be drip fed gametime in a consistent environment.

It's a big risk to upend him now and send him elsewhere.

Maybe Rowntree was a draw, but of course we have our own excellent coaching team in place.

[The Doc]

At this moment in time the fact remains that Leinster are benefiting massively from their geographical location.
Right now the schools game in Leinster is so good and is so well funded that players are coming out of school ready for the pro environment, as they have essentially been living like a pro athlete already.
Not only do Leinster have the benefit of having privately funded academies within their schools game, they also have the benefit of numbers.
The more players you have in a quality system will inevitably lead to the development of a better quality end product, whereas the likes of Munster and Connacht do not have this luxury, as they are limited to the number of we’ll funded quality schools systems and by populations.

This advantage really isn't a geographic one. It's a mind-set problem. These kids don't require a work permit or visa to move to Limerick. If Munster (or Connacht) don't have a stream of school kids, there is nothing to stop Munster offering sub-academy places to kids leaving Leinster schools - why don't the other academies put in the effort to scout the Leinster schools system?

On the analysis - Hugonaut on here posted on the Demented Mole blog about Jan / Feb last year analysing the minutes played and spread between the playing squad in Munster. It's a detailed analysis and I'm not sure if it has changed over the last 12 months - but it didn't look good at all back then. When the starting Irish 20's out-half struggles to even see the pitch for Munster - that tells you everything you need to know

[hugonaut]

At this moment in time the fact remains that Leinster are benefiting massively from their geographical location.
Right now the schools game in Leinster is so good and is so well funded that players are coming out of school ready for the pro environment, as they have essentially been living like a pro athlete already.
Not only do Leinster have the benefit of having privately funded academies within their schools game, they also have the benefit of numbers.
The more players you have in a quality system will inevitably lead to the development of a better quality end product, whereas the likes of Munster and Connacht do not have this luxury, as they are limited to the number of we’ll funded quality schools systems and by populations.

Absolutely. Explains why the Blues [with Auckland's population of 1.46m] have dominated Super Rugby in recent seasons while Canterbury [with Christchurch's population of 377k] have really struggled. It's just a numbers game.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

At this moment in time the fact remains that Leinster are benefiting massively from their geographical location.
Right now the schools game in Leinster is so good and is so well funded that players are coming out of school ready for the pro environment, as they have essentially been living like a pro athlete already.
Not only do Leinster have the benefit of having privately funded academies within their schools game, they also have the benefit of numbers.
The more players you have in a quality system will inevitably lead to the development of a better quality end product, whereas the likes of Munster and Connacht do not have this luxury, as they are limited to the number of we’ll funded quality schools systems and by populations.

Absolutely. Explains why the Blues [with Auckland's population of 1.46m] have dominated Super Rugby in recent seasons while Canterbury [with Christchurch's population of 377k] have really struggled. It's just a numbers game.

Hawaii is actually a lot closer to Kerry than anywhere in Leinster too.

[hugonaut]

Hawaii is actually a lot closer to Kerry than anywhere in Leinster too.

It's always been his dream to play for Munster. Even when he was going to Buck's in his Leinster training gear, it was his dream.

[Spellster]

Hi Guys,

We have also seen Leinster players move from Leinster to Ulster and Connacht, but for some reason these transfers are acceptable?

Saying that, in general, if you look at the match day 23 from this season for each of the 4 franchises, then you will see that Munster are generally in the top 2 when it comes to fielding home grown players, but that would not fit the narrative of the vocal minority of Leinster fans.

We get quite pissed when Ulster or Connacht try to sign our front line players as well, see the campaigns to stop Carbery moving to Ulster and Salanoa moving to Connacht only for them to move to Munster.

Being the tallest dwarf is not a lot to brag about, when Munster played Ulster in January, Munster had 9 homegrown players, Ulster had 6 and they had 8 Leinster players between them. Munster are definitely stymying the growth of their own players, Limerick used to be a factory of Irish internationals but there hasn't been anyone coming from there since Kilcoyne and Earls a decade ago and it's because they are picking up South Africans and Leinster players and playing them ahead of the local lads.

[munster#1]

Hi Guys,

We have also seen Leinster players move from Leinster to Ulster and Connacht, but for some reason these transfers are acceptable?

Saying that, in general, if you look at the match day 23 from this season for each of the 4 franchises, then you will see that Munster are generally in the top 2 when it comes to fielding home grown players, but that would not fit the narrative of the vocal minority of Leinster fans.

We get quite pissed when Ulster or Connacht try to sign our front line players as well, see the campaigns to stop Carbery moving to Ulster and Salanoa moving to Connacht only for them to move to Munster.

Being the tallest dwarf is not a lot to brag about, when Munster played Ulster in January, Munster had 9 homegrown players, Ulster had 6 and they had 8 Leinster players between them. Munster are definitely stymying the growth of their own players, Limerick used to be a factory of Irish internationals but there hasn't been anyone coming from there since Kilcoyne and Earls a decade ago and it's because they are picking up South Africans and Leinster players and playing them ahead of the local lads.

Well the outrage is by and large at a different level when the move is to Munster, which is odd.
It is a kind of childish reaction.

Today is a great example of that, 2 well thought of props are moving, and there is only outrage about the one moving to Munster.
At least we agree that Munster are bad, but not as bad as Connacht and Ulster? But sure they are sound.
Not sure the derogatory comment about dwarves is appropriate or necessary?

With regards to producing internationals, you left out a few players who have come through since Earls burst onto into the Munster team, including a couple of Lions players. But we have definitely been second to Leinster during that time.

[The Doc]

Today is a great example of that, 2 well thought of props are moving, and there is only outrage about the one moving to Munster.
At least we agree that Munster are bad, but not as bad as Connacht and Ulster? But sure they are sound.
Not sure the derogatory comment about dwarves is appropriate or necessary?

Give us time - we haven't moved on to the other one yet

More seriously - I can explain that no problem. The move to Connacht is more understandable because Jack is likely moving to actually push for regular starts (or match day spot). I can understand that both from the player's point of view and Connacht's. I could understand Jordi or Jack moving North for the same reason. Even Joey's move makes sense if he believes he really is a 10.

But moving from a spot where you had already made your first appearances in the first team to be 5th choice in an organisation barely using their 3rd choice in any position just seems odd. It doesn't look like a player driven move. I wonder how many minutes of game time he gets in the next 12 months.