Leinster Squad 19-20

[hugonaut]

The Carbery Saga aint difficult. Young man put under pressure by Schmidt for what IRFU said was the greater good. Leinster could coach him up to a Euro Cup winning 10/15 a la Barrett. Hes in Munster now and instead of looking like a lock to start HC cup for the next 7 years hes in a battle with JJ Hanrahan for out half. Its a bummer but I would absolutely take him back.

You missed out on the biggest element! Jackson disgracing himself, getting axed by the IRFU and Joe Schmidt losing his back-up No10.

[ronk]

It's too late. Munster wouldn't accept him as a loan, it had to be permanent. Whether we'd want him back is irrelevant: the bridge has been burned. He is their future and they are his. If van Graan prefered someone else, Leo wanted him back and Farrell thought it would not damage the Irish team, the fear of repercussions among fans and media would still block it.

[Dave Cahill]

I don't think van Graan's preferences will come into it. There is too much capitol invested in Joey playing for Munster for anything as trivial as a coaches preference being allowed interfere with that

[Workhorse]

It’s fine, you’re obviously annoyed or frustrated by something, unless you’re Joey Carbery or Joey Carberys Mam, Dad, or brother from another mother I’d suggest cracking a sneaky cold beer and enjoying the rest of the evening...

Annoyed at people trying to push the blame for us losing a game onto someone else maybe. We lost, and we lost the a very very good team, stop crying and get over it.

I'll bite. Explain how "We produce too many players at Leinster for our own good."

How is it to the benefit of Leinster that we lose key players, with IRFU assistance, to other provinces during their contracts rather than we choose for ourselves which players we are try to extend.

The other provinces need help, a fair argument but different. It helps the Irish team; in theory yes, but not in recent practise. It helps Leinster to lose guys who are getting lots of game time and are widely seen as future Lions? You can try to explain that one...

We are producing players at a quicker rate than players of their comparable quality retire so we're producing a surplus. You can't have a squad of 50 test internationals, it's not viable in any way shape or form. If you're the 3rd best out half in your country are you going to settle for not making a matchday squad in the big games for your club? That's the situation we were in at 10 in 2018. Players aren't going to sit around while that happens for an endless amount of reasons.

There was very little at the time to suggest that Larmour was going to overtake carbery at 15.

After his first game at 15 Larmour played there more often than Carbery from that point. He also played fullback internationally. If that's very little to suggest he was an adequate replacement that could possibly edge him out which is what I said then I don't want to know how high you've set the bar.

[deco]

It's too late. Munster wouldn't accept him as a loan, it had to be permanent. Whether we'd want him back is irrelevant: the bridge has been burned. He is their future and they are his. If van Graan prefered someone else, Leo wanted him back and Farrell thought it would not damage the Irish team, the fear of repercussions among fans and media would still block it.

From what I've heard, Leo & co would not have him back in a blue fit. "Flake" well and truly burned that bridge when he walked out the door on the promise of a seat to Japan. Munster and he deserve each other.

To those that say that his move was in everyones interest. How was it a) in Leinster's interest and b) in Bill Johnson's interest?

[OTT]

Joey Carbery was 22...f*&k%*g 22...he was in the middle of a two year contract. The amount of exposure he was getting at his age is unheard of in Ireland outside Leinster.

The tale about Carbery needing or wanting to play 10 for his development and one day in April/May two years ago in the middle of the biggest club matches of his very short and young career deciding that he really needed to be involved more then practically every match he was fit to be involved in that season so he orchestrated a move to Munster off his own bat is one of the best sources of fiction going.

If he had of come through Munster most of us would probably still not know who he is today. The situation we were in at 10 in 2018 was that Joey was in the middle of a two year contract he should have done the second year of his contract then if this roadblock to the first team that was supposedly inevitable* he could then have fulfilled his dreams of lining out in the red of Munster as a 23 year old.







*because it certainly had not at the point he left Leinster

[ronk]

I don't think van Graan's preferences will come into it. There is too much capitol invested in Joey playing for Munster for anything as trivial as a coaches preference being allowed interfere with that

Yes, thats what I was saying.

Joey knew it was a one way trip, he lit some of the matches himself.

[ronk]

I'll bite. Explain how "We produce too many players at Leinster for our own good."

How is it to the benefit of Leinster that we lose key players, with IRFU assistance, to other provinces during their contracts rather than we choose for ourselves which players we are try to extend.

The other provinces need help, a fair argument but different. It helps the Irish team; in theory yes, but not in recent practise. It helps Leinster to lose guys who are getting lots of game time and are widely seen as future Lions? You can try to explain that one...

We are producing players at a quicker rate than players of their comparable quality retire so we're producing a surplus. You can't have a squad of 50 test internationals, it's not viable in any way shape or form. If you're the 3rd best out half in your country are you going to settle for not making a matchday squad in the big games for your club? That's the situation we were in at 10 in 2018. Players aren't going to sit around while that happens for an endless amount of reasons.

When you didnt understand the question I went back over it to see if I could have been clearer. I could not.

I think you understand the difference between "too many for your own good." and "too many for your own requirements".

[Oldschoolsocks]

It’s fine, you’re obviously annoyed or frustrated by something, unless you’re Joey Carbery or Joey Carberys Mam, Dad, or brother from another mother I’d suggest cracking a sneaky cold beer and enjoying the rest of the evening...

Annoyed at people trying to push the blame for us losing a game onto someone else maybe. We lost, and we lost the a very very good team, stop crying and get over it.

I'll bite. Explain how "We produce too many players at Leinster for our own good."

How is it to the benefit of Leinster that we lose key players, with IRFU assistance, to other provinces during their contracts rather than we choose for ourselves which players we are try to extend.

The other provinces need help, a fair argument but different. It helps the Irish team; in theory yes, but not in recent practise. It helps Leinster to lose guys who are getting lots of game time and are widely seen as future Lions? You can try to explain that one...

We are producing players at a quicker rate than players of their comparable quality retire so we're producing a surplus. You can't have a squad of 50 test internationals, it's not viable in any way shape or form. If you're the 3rd best out half in your country are you going to settle for not making a matchday squad in the big games for your club? That's the situation we were in at 10 in 2018. Players aren't going to sit around while that happens for an endless amount of reasons.

There was very little at the time to suggest that Larmour was going to overtake carbery at 15.

After his first game at 15 Larmour played there more often than Carbery from that point. He also played fullback internationally. If that's very little to suggest he was an adequate replacement that could possibly edge him out which is what I said then I don't want to know how high you've set the bar.

Have you even read my posts? Because your response doesn’t really answer much of what I said...

It’s getting a bit 6th year now tbh

[Workhorse]

When you didnt understand the question I went back over it to see if I could have been clearer. I could not.

I think you understand the difference between "too many for your own good." and "too many for your own requirements".

Is it not clear?
If we kept all the quality players we produce we would one, bankrupt ourselves, block up the production line meaning that we'd have a dearth of quality players with sufficient game time under their belt once the batch blocking them retired, and we'd end up with unhappy players because we wouldn't be able to give the established player the game time they need to push on and we wouldn't be able to give the rising talent the game time to establish themselves.

[Morf]

You could just save your time by copy and pasting 'Rob Kearney is class, everyone else is shite, especially Sexton' into every post

Kearney is class - he has never let us down in a big match - was about the only one who looked good against Saracens in 2019 final. I know you don't want him to get a contract for whatever reason - you would like to see Leinster dependent on a converted wing who is struggling in defence but at the same time think we should give contracts to two aging 2nd rows!!

Pish. Rob is a converted wing. Larmour is a converted 13.

[meathman3]

Pish. Rob is a converted wing. Larmour is a converted 13.[/quote]

Agreed - except that Rob played FB all through his junior years - was only a wing briefly to facilitate Girvan and then showed his class against the ABs, in the GS and on the Lions so he had to become the Ireland FB.

Jordan by contrast was parachuted in there with no junior experience to facilitate Lancaster's fantasy of Larmour-Lowe combo and while that works a treat against poor European opposition, it is always going to have its limitations against a quality side.

But if Leinster and Ireland are going to persist - who better to help JL learn than RK so why this rush to throw him away?

[mildlyinterested]

Lancaster's fantasy

[CiaranIrl]

When you didnt understand the question I went back over it to see if I could have been clearer. I could not.

I think you understand the difference between "too many for your own good." and "too many for your own requirements".

Is it not clear?
If we kept all the quality players we produce we would one, bankrupt ourselves, block up the production line meaning that we'd have a dearth of quality players with sufficient game time under their belt once the batch blocking them retired, and we'd end up with unhappy players because we wouldn't be able to give the established player the game time they need to push on and we wouldn't be able to give the rising talent the game time to establish themselves.

Surely it's in Leinster's interest to be making the decision on who stays and who goes? It's not like the coaches are incapable of selecting the best players and then the remainder are free to find another club? How is the IRFU making the decision for us better for Leinster?

I mean, I get that it's better for Ireland, and I'm not necessarily saying it's the wrong thing that the IRFU push players to move (note that I'm new to this conversation) but surely you can't think it's good for Leinster that Carb. was made to move?

[mildlyinterested]

Of course it wasn't leinster had planned for carbery to under contract and at the last minute he was moved to our biggest rival.

[johng]

Of course it wasn't leinster had planned for carbery to under contract and at the last minute he was moved to our biggest rival.

Carberry's playing for Saracens now?

[riocard911]

Of course it wasn't leinster had planned for carbery to under contract and at the last minute he was moved to our biggest rival.

Carberry's playing for Saracens now?

I would have thought Toulouse, the only other team to have won the Heino four times, are our biggest rivals. Should we manage to see off Sarries in the quarters and whoever we get in this year's semis, I imagine we will be meeting Toulouse in the mother of all finals in Marseilles (covid permitting of course). Should said scenario pan out, winning there will be a greater achievement than even vs Clermont in Bordeaux in 2012.

[Workhorse]

Surely it's in Leinster's interest to be making the decision on who stays and who goes? It's not like the coaches are incapable of selecting the best players and then the remainder are free to find another club? How is the IRFU making the decision for us better for Leinster?

I mean, I get that it's better for Ireland, and I'm not necessarily saying it's the wrong thing that the IRFU push players to move (note that I'm new to this conversation) but surely you can't think it's good for Leinster that Carb. was made to move?

The IRFU didn't make a decision. Everyone here seems to think it's some great big conspiracy where Nucifora rang Carbery one day and say "we've moved you to munster bye" that's not what happened. Leinster had Irelands first choice, second choice, and even third choice out half on the books. As a result Carbery and Byrne were told they'd need to be playing 10 regularly in Ireland to go to the world cup as second choice a completely fair thing to say and every national team head coach in the world has the same criteria (play regularly in the position I want you). Byrne decided that his development was best in Leinster which was fair enough he was 3rd choice 10 but played there a lot because Carbery was at 15 a lot and Sexton is a pretty perfect person for him to learn off, Carbery though decided that at Leinster he was having his time split between two positions and playing mostly in a position the national team didn't see him in, he also had lots of competition in those two positions so could easily be in a position where come the world cup not only would he be Leinsters 3rd choice 10 but 3rd choice fullback too. Knowing this he decided to ask for a move to be facilitated. He said he wouldn't move to Ulster because they were a mess at the time, Connacht were excluded too which leaves just one option and off he went.

If Carbery had stayed the odds are at least one of Sexton, Byrne or Carbery would grow annoyed at lack of game time and be a bad atmosphere around the club. The game time of other talents coming up through the ranks would have been stunted too. Think Harry Byrne, Fawley, Larmour, Keenan, Jimmy O'brien. Would Leinster have preferred to have a say in who moved on, obviously yes, but by now odds are either one of them would have moved on or somewhere along the line there wouldn't be the playing time available to allow the pathway to function in the same way that has seen it be so successful in the last decade or so

[mildlyinterested]

Surely it's in Leinster's interest to be making the decision on who stays and who goes? It's not like the coaches are incapable of selecting the best players and then the remainder are free to find another club? How is the IRFU making the decision for us better for Leinster?

I mean, I get that it's better for Ireland, and I'm not necessarily saying it's the wrong thing that the IRFU push players to move (note that I'm new to this conversation) but surely you can't think it's good for Leinster that Carb. was made to move?

The IRFU didn't make a decision. Everyone here seems to think it's some great big conspiracy where Nucifora rang Carbery one day and say "we've moved you to munster bye" that's not what happened. Leinster had Irelands first choice, second choice, and even third choice out half on the books. As a result Carbery and Byrne were told they'd need to be playing 10 regularly in Ireland to go to the world cup as second choice a completely fair thing to say and every national team head coach in the world has the same criteria (play regularly in the position I want you). Byrne decided that his development was best in Leinster which was fair enough he was 3rd choice 10 but played there a lot because Carbery was at 15 a lot and Sexton is a pretty perfect person for him to learn off, Carbery though decided that at Leinster he was having his time split between two positions and playing mostly in a position the national team didn't see him in, he also had lots of competition in those two positions so could easily be in a position where come the world cup not only would he be Leinsters 3rd choice 10 but 3rd choice fullback too. Knowing this he decided to ask for a move to be facilitated. He said he wouldn't move to Ulster because they were a mess at the time, Connacht were excluded too which leaves just one option and off he went.

If Carbery had stayed the odds are at least one of Sexton, Byrne or Carbery would grow annoyed at lack of game time and be a bad atmosphere around the club. The game time of other talents coming up through the ranks would have been stunted too. Think Harry Byrne, Fawley, Larmour, Keenan, Jimmy O'brien. Would Leinster have preferred to have a say in who moved on, obviously yes, but by now odds are either one of them would have moved on or somewhere along the line there wouldn't be the playing time available to allow the pathway to function in the same way that has seen it be so successful in the last decade or so

Carbery had a contract with Leinster, he was happy to fulfill that contract until the IRFU came in with the idea of moving him to ulster, which he rejected and then munster came into the equation, resulting in a meeting with Van Graan, and a final meeting with Schmidt to take 'advice'. His contract was then broken with Leinster by the IRFU and he moved south. /endofstory

bringing Harry Byrne or Jimmy O'Brien etc development into it is completely irrelevant.

spinning it that it was a good thing for leinster that it happened, is bizarre.

[Workhorse]

Carbery had a contract with Leinster, he was happy to fulfill that contract until the IRFU came in with the idea of moving him to ulster, which he rejected and then munster came into the equation, resulting in a meeting with Van Graan, and a final meeting with Schmidt to take 'advice'. His contract was then broken with Leinster by the IRFU and he moved south. /endofstory

bringing Harry Byrne or Jimmy O'Brien etc development into it is completely irrelevant.

spinning it that it was a good thing for leinster that it happened, is bizarre.

Carbery wasn't told to move. Carbery and Byrne were told to be the backup to Sexton you must be playing regular top level rugby at 10 simple as, just as every national team coach would tell any player. Carbery asked for a move to be facilitated off the back of that. You can stick your fingers in your ears all you want but like it or not that's what happened.

The development of other players isn't irrelevant. Leinster currently have more or less the perfect squad balance to perform at an elite level, be competitive during international periods and develop young players coming through so that's why Leinster are on a one in one out basis. You can split our squad into sections of quality and year by year move players around the sections and within one or two the numbers will stay the same. So the development of players is completely relevant to my point that we produce too many top quality players to be able to keep them all here, happy, developing at the rate they should and on the money they deserve.

The reason every top sports team goes through a boom and bust cycle is because they get too caught up with having as many top class players as possible, you have to allow players to develop regularly or else you'll have the situation where those top class players will all deteriorate at a similar time and you'll have nothing behind them.
That's why Manchester United were so successful for so long but you can look at all the players they lost in or around their prime, Ferguson was a master at maintaining that development pathway. It's why munster dropped off a cliff, all their quality players retired quickly and the players behind them hadn't been given the chance, same with Leicester in England. You can't have a squad of 30 players in their prime, which is what Leinster could have if players didn't move on at what seems to be inconvenient times, because you'll lose a generation behind them and that could prove fatal