Leinster Squad 19-20

[OTT]

Munster did not have Blyendaal under contract at the time?, they had not just given Keatley a new contract for the following season?, they did not have JJ? They did not have their own academy 10 Bill Johnston looking for some of his own opportunities?, they had no foresight that they also had a bunch of young guys (Harry Byrne's peers) coming through in Healy and Flannery who might be decent?

Joey's move to Munster makes perfect sense when you put it like that.

[Workhorse]

Munster did not have Blyendaal under contract at the time?, they had not just given Keatley a new contract for the following season?, they did not have JJ? They did not have their own academy 10 Bill Johnston looking for some of his own opportunities?, they had no foresight that they also had a bunch of young guys (Harry Byrne's peers) coming through in Healy and Flannery who might be decent?

Joey's move to Munster makes perfect sense when you put it like that.

Makes perfect sense in that he was better than them all and he wasn't better than what Leinster had

Also the fact that munster wanted him and were committed to cutting down how many 10s they had on their books

[Oldschoolsocks]

Munster did not have Blyendaal under contract at the time?, they had not just given Keatley a new contract for the following season?, they did not have JJ? They did not have their own academy 10 Bill Johnston looking for some of his own opportunities?, they had no foresight that they also had a bunch of young guys (Harry Byrne's peers) coming through in Healy and Flannery who might be decent?

Joey's move to Munster makes perfect sense when you put it like that.

As I said, the neighbours are feckless, I wonder if they’ll keep on being enabled?

[mildlyinterested]

spinning it that it was a good thing for leinster that Carbery left mid-contract, is bizarre.

[Workhorse]

spinning it that it was a good thing for leinster that Carbery left mid-contract, is bizarre.

People would say the same about Beckham leaving Manchester United in 2003 but if he hadn't would Ronaldo have even been signed nevermind given the game time to develop?

[OTT]

spinning it that it was a good thing for leinster that Carbery left mid-contract, is bizarre.

People would say the same about Beckham leaving Manchester United in 2003 but if he hadn't would Ronaldo have even been signed nevermind given the game time to develop?

Ferguson got rid of Beckham, Leinster did not get rid of Carbery.

I don't get the United analogy at all, I am a United fan, it just seems like waffle.

You are saying Leinster needed to get rid of Joey for the development of others and then saluting Munster for dumping players for the development of Joey. It is a contradiction. Munster now have 4 10's on their books between the age of 20-24. Is it time for Joey to move again for their development?

[mildlyinterested]

spinning it that it was a good thing for leinster that Carbery left mid-contract, is bizarre.

People would say the same about Beckham leaving Manchester United in 2003 but if he hadn't would Ronaldo have even been signed nevermind given the game time to develop?

Yep, Bizarre.

[Workhorse]

Ferguson got rid of Beckham, Leinster did not get rid of Carbery.

I don't get the United analogy at all, I am a United fan, it just seems like waffle.

You are saying Leinster needed to get rid of Joey for the development of others and then saluting Munster for dumping players for the development of Joey. It is a contradiction. Munster now have 4 10's on their books between the age of 20-24. Is it time for Joey to move again for their development?

Ferguson got rid of Beckham because ferguson knew that sometimes you have to make transfers that on the surface seem like they'll be detrimental to the team because its better for the ecosystem as a whole. There are numerous examples of Ferguson moving players on seemingly too early but it working out in the lo g run, that's why Manchester United stayed top of the tree for 20 years while their competitors came and went. Carbery is the exact same, he wasn't the marquee 10 or 15 at Leinster and he was in a battle with Larmour and Byrne for two positions because sooner or later one of those 3 was going to be moved on because they weren't goiwto be the next marquee player in their position as in guaranteed a start when available and off at international camps in the list of players not released back to provinces for long periods of the season.

Generally in a position you want the balance as close to this as possible:
1 established international (away for large cunks of year),
1 established club player (in and around national squads but released back a lot),
1 young pro with potential,
1 academy star pushing for senior contract,
1 academy player with potential (just out of sub academy)

That's what leinster have now and its basically the perfect balance.
Before Carbery moved himself and Byrne were battling it out for that established club player slot and were covering it and the slot below between them but with players coming up behind them that couldnt stay the same or you'd have until sexton retires with one of them occupying "young pro tag" by which time that person would be 27 ish and you'd have lost a cycle which would have disastrous knock on effects.

At munster though they had those positions as:
Carbery
Bleyendaal/Keatley/Hanrahan
Johnston
N/A
Healy

Of them Johnston was 3 years since joining the academy so if he hadn't been rushed would be down a slot, Keatley was being loaned out and Hanrahan was being used as a utility player. And Bleyendaal was constantly injured.

So realistically it was
Carbery
Hanrahan
Bleyendaal
Johnston
Healy

So Carbery wasn't blocking development of anyone. They were similar ages but different stages of development

[joooooe]

Ferguson got rid of Beckham, Leinster did not get rid of Carbery.

I don't get the United analogy at all, I am a United fan, it just seems like waffle.

You are saying Leinster needed to get rid of Joey for the development of others and then saluting Munster for dumping players for the development of Joey. It is a contradiction. Munster now have 4 10's on their books between the age of 20-24. Is it time for Joey to move again for their development?

Ferguson got rid of Beckham because ferguson knew that sometimes you have to make transfers that on the surface seem like they'll be detrimental to the team because its better for the ecosystem as a whole. There are numerous examples of Ferguson moving players on seemingly too early but it working out in the lo g run, that's why Manchester United stayed top of the tree for 20 years while their competitors came and went. Carbery is the exact same, he wasn't the marquee 10 or 15 at Leinster and he was in a battle with Larmour and Byrne for two positions because sooner or later one of those 3 was going to be moved on because they weren't goiwto be the next marquee player in their position as in guaranteed a start when available and off at international camps in the list of players not released back to provinces for long periods of the season.

Generally in a position you want the balance as close to this as possible:
1 established international (away for large cunks of year),
1 established club player (in and around national squads but released back a lot),
1 young pro with potential,
1 academy star pushing for senior contract,
1 academy player with potential (just out of sub academy)

That's what leinster have now and its basically the perfect balance.
Before Carbery moved himself and Byrne were battling it out for that established club player slot and were covering it and the slot below between them but with players coming up behind them that couldnt stay the same or you'd have until sexton retires with one of them occupying "young pro tag" by which time that person would be 27 ish and you'd have lost a cycle which would have disastrous knock on effects.

At munster though they had those positions as:
Carbery
Bleyendaal/Keatley/Hanrahan
Johnston
N/A
Healy

Of them Johnston was 3 years since joining the academy so if he hadn't been rushed would be down a slot, Keatley was being loaned out and Hanrahan was being used as a utility player. And Bleyendaal was constantly injured.

So realistically it was
Carbery
Hanrahan
Bleyendaal
Johnston
Healy

So Carbery wasn't blocking development of anyone. They were similar ages but different stages of development

I actually agree on your Manchester United analogy, even though it pains me as a long-time fan of the noisy neighbours. However, there are 2 flaws in your argument (no analogy is perfect, in fairness):

1. Leinster wanted to keep Carbery and have made no secret of that since. He was under contract and the "depth chart" lists you provide would have had Carbery in there, or at least the one on Leo Cullen's whiteboard would have. While it may have shocked the footballing world to sell Hughes (twice), Sharpe, Ince, Beckham, Ronaldo or Van Nistelrooy, it didn't shock Alex Ferguson or Martin Edwards. Imagine if the FA had said in 1998 that they wanted both Butt and Scholes to have experience in midfield and Kevin Keegan had taken Paul Scholes and his dad to lunch and advised him to move to Liverpool because Jamie Redknapp is injury-prone. Not only that, Manchester United would have no say in the matter and receive no compensation and that young lad Gerrard would just have to bide his time on the bench. The analogy isn't fully sound, but you get the idea.

2. To argue that Carbery did not stunt the development of "home-grown" (allowing for Bleyendal coming via Crusaders, Hanrahan via Northampton and Keatley via Leinster/Connacht) players is false. Bill Johnston showed this by moving to Ulster and Conor Fitzgerald by moving to Connacht. That one cannot be blamed on Joey Carbery nor on Leinster, but Munster have a lengthy record of neglecting promising talent and either a) signing in from outside in pursuit of short-term glory, or b) flogging the senior players because the back-up doesn't have the necessary experience. I've said it before on here but nothing sums up Munster-in-the-2010s as well as Alby Matthewson. Short-term, expensive, blocked potential, and - when the reason for signing him was no longer a justification (Murray being injured) - they kept him anyway. Now he's gone and they bemoan the fact that McCarthy, Cronin and Casey don't have experience (having already forced out Duncan Williams and James Hart).

I would have no objection to Joey Carbery's move if ALL parties agreed to it, including Leinster. Jordi Murphy is a good example of a genuinely mutually-beneficial transfer, Jack Aungier is another. Jack McGrath's move is in the Carbery column, while Nick McCarthy's move is just bizarre.

[Workhorse]

I actually agree on your Manchester United analogy, even though it pains me as a long-time fan of the noisy neighbours. However, there are 2 flaws in your argument (no analogy is perfect, in fairness):

1. Leinster wanted to keep Carbery and have made no secret of that since. He was under contract and the "depth chart" lists you provide would have had Carbery in there, or at least the one on Leo Cullen's whiteboard would have. While it may have shocked the footballing world to sell Hughes (twice), Sharpe, Ince, Beckham, Ronaldo or Van Nistelrooy, it didn't shock Alex Ferguson or Martin Edwards. Imagine if the FA had said in 1998 that they wanted both Butt and Scholes to have experience in midfield and Kevin Keegan had taken Paul Scholes and his dad to lunch and advised him to move to Liverpool because Jamie Redknapp is injury-prone. Not only that, Manchester United would have no say in the matter and receive no compensation and that young lad Gerrard would just have to bide his time on the bench. The analogy isn't fully sound, but you get the idea.

2. To argue that Carbery did not stunt the development of "home-grown" (allowing for Bleyendal coming via Crusaders, Hanrahan via Northampton and Keatley via Leinster/Connacht) players is false. Bill Johnston showed this by moving to Ulster and Conor Fitzgerald by moving to Connacht. That one cannot be blamed on Joey Carbery nor on Leinster, but Munster have a lengthy record of neglecting promising talent and either a) signing in from outside in pursuit of short-term glory, or b) flogging the senior players because the back-up doesn't have the necessary experience. I've said it before on here but nothing sums up Munster-in-the-2010s as well as Alby Matthewson. Short-term, expensive, blocked potential, and - when the reason for signing him was no longer a justification (Murray being injured) - they kept him anyway. Now he's gone and they bemoan the fact that McCarthy, Cronin and Casey don't have experience (having already forced out Duncan Williams and James Hart).

I would have no objection to Joey Carbery's move if ALL parties agreed to it, including Leinster. Jordi Murphy is a good example of a genuinely mutually-beneficial transfer, Jack Aungier is another. Jack McGrath's move is in the Carbery column, while Nick McCarthy's move is just bizarre.

The compensation bit is a bit unique but I think the way contracts are done and the ownership model in general of the provinces makes them sort of unique in that we don't really know if there was any compensation given behind the scenes.
I also think though Leo would say he'd have liked him to stay even Leo would acknowledge that one of Byrne or Carbery or Larmour was going to have to move on at some point and the Jackson situation expedited that a bit before anyone really would have liked.
On the FA wanting the player to move, there probably are players that have run their contact down at United because they needed game time to play national team football or just to move for more game time.

On the stunting player development, I too would lay that blame at Munster’s feet, as I showed they had the exact same development setup as Leinster and just made a mess of it with regards to getting the players enough game time in suitable surroundings. I think if Carbery wasn't there the only difference would be they'd still have Keatley.

[Up Wexford]

@Workhorse But this is the thing man, Carberry was 22, was literally plucked out of the blue into pro rugby maybe two years before hand. He absolutely handn't a clue of the implications of his move. I made a hell of a lot of terrible decisions in my 20's and honestly if Joe Schmidt told me to jump I'd say "How high?" even if it was clearly not in my best interests. Could you see that Carberrys decsion wasnt made by a razor sharp 26 year old pro in his prime but rather a kid under a lot of pressure?

And about the outhalf back log, we could have been looking at Beauden Barrett lite now in Carberry, and as much as I admire them I don't think you could say that about Ross, Frawley, Hawkshaw (yet), and I think Harry will a different player more akin to Sexton/Farrell bit with more class maybe? So even if there was a backlog, I think talent should trump that, and I think Leo and Stu saw that, and thats why they were so put out by this move.

And a third point from the Carberry story pertaining to Leinster at large is psychology/attitude. It is by its definition intangible, but modern teams (Crusaders/Robinson) and Stu are very big on personality development and working on the whole. Just speculating here from the last few posts, but perhaps Carberry had a flaky attitude - and i'm being very careful here, i'm not using it in a negative sense, its all speculation, but he was under crazy pressure and perhaps his decision making path was difficult. You can't screen for attitude but I think thats why Scott Fardy has been so good for us, and perhaps why Kane Douglas flamed out. Even in the converse, by all accounts Tomane had a super attitude to the team but was just cruelly undermined by injuries.

And I think we can all definitely agree that the blame for stunting his development lies at Munsters feet

[Dave Cahill]

Playing for Leinster schools, SCT, AIL, Leinster u20s, Ireland u20s and Academy before the Senior team is hardly out of the blue - its very much in the blue

[Up Wexford]

Fair point, to be honest I'm not au fait with Carberrys rise, I'm only going off the headline spiel of Graham Henry saw him in training and said thats your man!

From what I understand he wasn't a regular in the A/first teams upon his discovery, I believe he was starting out half for Clontarf? Lets say like Harry Byrne now, they were both similar in age - he wasn't rated like him, and he wasn't a shoe in from years out like Jordan Larmour or Luke Fitz? I stand to be corrected on that of course?

[Workhorse]

@Workhorse But this is the thing man, Carberry was 22, was literally plucked out of the blue into pro rugby maybe two years before hand. He absolutely handn't a clue of the implications of his move. I made a hell of a lot of terrible decisions in my 20's and honestly if Joe Schmidt told me to jump I'd say "How high?" even if it was clearly not in my best interests. Could you see that Carberrys decsion wasnt made by a razor sharp 26 year old pro in his prime but rather a kid under a lot of pressure?

And about the outhalf back log, we could have been looking at Beauden Barrett lite now in Carberry, and as much as I admire them I don't think you could say that about Ross, Frawley, Hawkshaw (yet), and I think Harry will a different player more akin to Sexton/Farrell bit with more class maybe? So even if there was a backlog, I think talent should trump that, and I think Leo and Stu saw that, and thats why they were so put out by this move.

And a third point from the Carberry story pertaining to Leinster at large is psychology/attitude. It is by its definition intangible, but modern teams (Crusaders/Robinson) and Stu are very big on personality development and working on the whole. Just speculating here from the last few posts, but perhaps Carberry had a flaky attitude - and i'm being very careful here, i'm not using it in a negative sense, its all speculation, but he was under crazy pressure and perhaps his decision making path was difficult. You can't screen for attitude but I think thats why Scott Fardy has been so good for us, and perhaps why Kane Douglas flamed out. Even in the converse, by all accounts Tomane had a super attitude to the team but was just cruelly undermined by injuries.

And I think we can all definitely agree that the blame for stunting his development lies at Munsters feet

Carbery played on a cup winning team from one of the most famous rugby schools in the world, and he got a scholarship to do it. He got a scholarship to play rugby in uni, got into the best rugby academy in Europe, and won an AIL to name just a few things he had done 2 or more years previously. That's literally the opposite of being plucked from the blue.
Also he was 22 not 12 with plenty of family to help him make the decision. He's not unique in having to make a career choice at that age, especially not in rugby.

Barrett had no real competition at out half at the canes, complete opposite scenario to Carbery, he was playing all the big games straight away, something Carbery wouldn't be doing at Leinster. If anything thats's more of an argument for a move to Munster. Again keeping all the quality you can isn't always the best decision because as good as he is Carbery still wouldn't be first choice 10 and if he's actually as good a fullback as believed is still up for debate. So what use would his talent be? Is having him on the bench instead of Byrne or in 15 instead of Larmour that much of an improvement to justify the knock on effect it would have on the game time for players in the production line and the consequences that would have in years to come. If we had kept him we could have potentially had the situation where Byrne and Carbery are off for the 6 nations after Sexton retires so ready or not the new pro 10 is thrown into the team? That's the exact problem Munster had and look how well that ended...

I have no idea where you've got that idea of his personality but you seem to have just plucked it out of the air to suit your "poor wee boy forced into a bad decision" narrative.

[wixfjord]

There is literally nothing we've seen from Carbery on a rugby pitch to think he's a 'flaky personality'.

[johng]

There is literally nothing we've seen from Carbery on a rugby pitch to think he's a 'flaky personality'.

Absolutely but but... flakes are made by cadburys and eh... that sounds a little like carbery.... and and... well... ah jaysus I've even heard people call him dary milk ffs.

[blockhead]

There is literally nothing we've seen from Carbery on a rugby pitch to think he's a 'flaky personality'.

Absolutely but but... flakes are made by cadburys and eh... that sounds a little like carbery.... and and... well... ah jaysus I've even heard people call him dary milk ffs.

I dont know johng, his head can get into a bit of a Twirl when the pressure comes on.

[Up Wexford]

@Workhorse Fair fair, it is all just speculation, I take your well-argued points.

I am constructing a narrative, that is true, but thats just because I can't square the circle of Carbery leaving Leinster with Carbery making a rational decision, that's all. In fairness, from a cursory glance at your posts I get the impression you are reasonably close to the Leinster set up and seem to be confident of your take on the Carbery decision being made with an experienced, level hand guiding it, it being either Joeys, his agents, or Joe Schmidts. I'll acquiesce there for sure.

Regarding his relative experience of top level rugby, again, I'll acquiesce there too. But just to point out that there have been a history of sure fire locks from underage to Leinster XV, Luke Fitz, J Ryan, Heaslip, would it be fair to say Carberry was in that category? Perhaps, perhaps not, again I don't have my finger on the pulse there either!

I think there is agreement though on his potential, and how it is not being fulfilled at Munster. My favourite Carbery game was the quarter final V Wasps in '17 in the Aviva when he played full back, I thought that was a masterful display of his potential. He just struck me as a player who played so well in an unstructured, almost "sandbox" environment, be it at 15 with competent defenders around him or at 10 with a second playmaker, and I thought that potential could be better served in a "secondary/supporing" role for want of a better word at Leinster for a few years until he was ready to make the jump than at full ROG/Sexton style game controlling outhalf. Again, I'm not his coach, agent, compadre or enemy so i'm just going off what I see. Would you see him fulfilling a Barret-esque role at Munster, or perhaps just becoming his own unique style?

And maybe to take you up on the Man U point, im no soccer head and I definitely agree with you with the Ferguson management style being unimpeachable, maybe instead of Carbery being Beckham, what if Carbery was a young Ronaldo, who was then traded away to Newcastle for example? Again this is not central to my main arguement but im a sucker for a cross-sport analogy

*again, no shots at all, its just a discussion i'm interested in, nothing more. And apologies for the double "r"s in my previous Carbery posts, it just types better

[CiaranIrl]

Well I'm convinced now anyway. I'm glad they took Carbery and I hope Munster poach more of our best players. I never realized until now what harm the good young players were doing.

[Workhorse]

Well I'm convinced now anyway. I'm glad they took Carbery and I hope Munster poach more of our best players. I never realized until now what harm the good young players were doing.

Carbery wasn't one of our best players. Prospects maybe but he definitely wasn't one of our best players