Leinster Squad 19-20

[Dave Cahill]

Carbery was moved from Leinster by Schmidt and Nucifora, he had little choice in the matter.

He was moved to Munster because they realised that they couldn't force him to go to Ulster, their initial destination of choice.

It was felt that him moving would enable him to get more gametime in the 10 jersey as Leinster had realised that Byrne was a better option at 10 for Leinster and that Carbery was a more likely replacement for Kearney in the long term than he was for Sexton.

This wouldn't have been an issue if Schmidt and the Incompetron Millennium Edition had any kind of foresight and placed Madigan in Connacht when they had the opportunity to do so before he signed for Bristol.

[mildlyinterested]

moving on from the past..

Connacht have announced academy today, so leaves leinster the only province to not confirm contract extensions for next season or their academy.

[meathman3]

15 is different though because is so similar to wing and you don't have the same game management pressures as at 10. [/quote]

That's a myth that needs exploding. That is why people think they can take any wing at all or indeed any centre and slot him into FB. That is so wrong. It is a specialist position and the FB is key in defensive organisation and backfield management. Furthermore the FB dictates to the flyhalf the intended positioning on restarts. It is not a role for a young player especially one who has not been there through his entire development.

[ronk]

spinning it that Carbery leaving when he did was a good thing for leinster that it happened, is bizarre.

It's a bit like saying that your wife leaving you for your brother is a good thing for the family unit and so you should be happy about it.

It's more like saying parents getting a divorce is better for the kids than staying together and trying to force it. Which yeah it definitely is.

It's more like saying that to a couple with no kids. Generic platitudes that are sometimes true but ignore the facts.

[Workhorse]

Carbery was moved from Leinster by Schmidt and Nucifora, he had little choice in the matter.

He was moved to Munster because they realised that they couldn't force him to go to Ulster, their initial destination of choice.

It was felt that him moving would enable him to get more gametime in the 10 jersey as Leinster had realised that Byrne was a better option at 10 for Leinster and that Carbery was a more likely replacement for Kearney in the long term than he was for Sexton.

This wouldn't have been an issue if Schmidt and the Incompetron Millennium Edition had any kind of foresight and placed Madigan in Connacht when they had the opportunity to do so before he signed for Bristol.

Do you know all this for a fact? because you're stating things as if they're facts. Everything I have said is a fact and there are whole articles written with quotes that are publicly available to back it up.

[Workhorse]

It's more like saying that to a couple with no kids. Generic platitudes that are sometimes true but ignore the facts.

No its not because Leinster have tonnes of kids in the metaphor in the rest of the squad and those in the system.

[Workhorse]

That's a myth that needs exploding. That is why people think they can take any wing at all or indeed any centre and slot him into FB. That is so wrong. It is a specialist position and the FB is key in defensive organisation and backfield management. Furthermore the FB dictates to the flyhalf the intended positioning on restarts. It is not a role for a young player especially one who has not been there through his entire development.

Fulback is a specialist position but it is similar to the wing, not the same but similar, much more similar than any position bar maybe 9 is to 10.

[LeinsterLeader]

Carbery was moved from Leinster by Schmidt and Nucifora, he had little choice in the matter.

He was moved to Munster because they realised that they couldn't force him to go to Ulster, their initial destination of choice.

It was felt that him moving would enable him to get more gametime in the 10 jersey as Leinster had realised that Byrne was a better option at 10 for Leinster and that Carbery was a more likely replacement for Kearney in the long term than he was for Sexton.

This wouldn't have been an issue if Schmidt and the Incompetron Millennium Edition had any kind of foresight and placed Madigan in Connacht when they had the opportunity to do so before he signed for Bristol.

Do you know all this for a fact? because you're stating things as if they're facts. Everything I have said is a fact and there are whole articles written with quotes that are publicly available to back it up.

Is this a fact? Seriously!

"Carbery was told to move, he was put under a lot of pressure. "

Cause if it is I'd be grateful if you could direct me to the source. Since this began I have heard maybe half a dozen different stories on what exactly happened, from fans, players, coaches and even the man himself and I am still in the dark. Remember too just cause these people gave their version of events doesn't mean it's the truth.

My own guess is we'll probably never know the truth. The IRFU owning all the hands in a game of Poker has many benefits but transparency to the public is not one of them.

That said if you have 'facts' I would love to see them. Genuinely!

[Workhorse]

Is this a fact? Seriously!

"Carbery was told to move, he was put under a lot of pressure. "

Cause if it is I'd be grateful if you could direct me to the source. Since this began I have heard maybe half a dozen different stories on what exactly happened, from fans, players, coaches and even the man himself and I am still in the dark. Remember too just cause these people gave their version of events doesn't mean it's the truth.

My own guess is we'll probably never know the truth. The IRFU owning all the hands in a game of Poker has many benefits but transparency to the public is not one of them.

That said if you have 'facts' I would love to see them. Genuinely!

I have never stated that Carbery was told to move because that quite simply isn't true.

I'm not arsed going back through every interview on the subject over the last two years but the simple facts are that Ross Byrne, Joey Carbery, Joe Schmidt, and David Nucifora have all continuously said similar things.
The two players knew that playing regular rugby at 10 was the key to going to the WC as back up 10. That is a given and the fact people on here try argue against that quite frankly devalues their entire argument.
Ross Byrne decided he wanted to stay at Leinster anyway. Carbery talked to his dad and decided to move. He contacted Schmidt and asked would that be possible and what he thought.
The IRFU then offered a move to Ulster, Carbery declined, Ross Byrne was also offered incase he changed his mind, he hadn't. As ulster had allowed for a new 10 Billy Burns was lined up as compensation.
The IRFU dismissed Connacht for whatever reason, probably budget and lack of champions cup.
The IRFU arranged for Carbery to move to Munster as probable first choice 10.

Were Leinster’s coaches asked, no, were they compensated, we don't know.
I have never claimed it was Leinsters idea nor that they even liked it. All I have stated is that in the big picture its not the disaster some here make it out to be because it means that there is a steady flow of game time for those coming through as rather than it being blocked by two immensely talented young fly half's pushing for international honours there's only one meaning it can be controlled more easily.

[LeinsterLeader]

Is this a fact? Seriously!

"Carbery was told to move, he was put under a lot of pressure. "

Cause if it is I'd be grateful if you could direct me to the source. Since this began I have heard maybe half a dozen different stories on what exactly happened, from fans, players, coaches and even the man himself and I am still in the dark. Remember too just cause these people gave their version of events doesn't mean it's the truth.

My own guess is we'll probably never know the truth. The IRFU owning all the hands in a game of Poker has many benefits but transparency to the public is not one of them.

That said if you have 'facts' I would love to see them. Genuinely!

I have never stated that Carbery was told to move because that quite simply isn't true.

I'm not arsed going back through every interview on the subject over the last two years but the simple facts are that Ross Byrne, Joey Carbery, Joe Schmidt, and David Nucifora have all continuously said similar things.
The two players knew that playing regular rugby at 10 was the key to going to the WC as back up 10. That is a given and the fact people on here try argue against that quite frankly devalues their entire argument.
Ross Byrne decided he wanted to stay at Leinster anyway. Carbery talked to his dad and decided to move. He contacted Schmidt and asked would that be possible and what he thought.
The IRFU then offered a move to Ulster, Carbery declined, Ross Byrne was also offered incase he changed his mind, he hadn't. As ulster had allowed for a new 10 Billy Burns was lined up as compensation.
The IRFU dismissed Connacht for whatever reason, probably budget and lack of champions cup.
The IRFU arranged for Carbery to move to Munster as probable first choice 10.

Were Leinster’s coaches asked, no, were they compensated, we don't know.
I have never claimed it was Leinsters idea nor that they even liked it. All I have stated is that in the big picture its not the disaster some here make it out to be because it means that there is a steady flow of game time for those coming through as rather than it being blocked by two immensely talented young fly half's pushing for international honours there's only one meaning it can be controlled more easily.

See that's my point WH! I've heard that story too (and many variations of it) but, I've also heard many variations on the story that JC was flat out told if he didn't go he could kiss his Ireland career goodbye. Which am I supposed to believe? Joey's? Why? Six weeks before he did interviews saying he was happy as larry where he was. Truthfully Joey was going to say whatever was going to take the heat off him and that's totally understandable.

The bottom line for me is this. As it stands your story has as much merit to it as any other so it may very well be through. I'm not a denialist. If that's what happened I can live with it but I would like to know, however like I said I doubt that's ever going to happen. Your story is very plausible, it may even be true but that doesn't make it a fact.

[Workhorse]

See that's my point WH! I've heard that story too (and many variations of it) but, I've also heard many variations on the story that JC was flat out told if he didn't go he could kiss his Ireland career goodbye. Which am I supposed to believe? Joey's? Why? Six weeks before he did interviews saying he was happy as larry where he was. Truthfully Joey was going to say whatever was going to take the heat off him and that's totally understandable.

The bottom line for me is this. As it stands your story has as much merit to it as any other so it may very well be through. I'm not a denialist. If that's what happened I can live with it but I would like to know, however like I said I doubt that's ever going to happen. Your story is very plausible, it may even be true but that doesn't make it a fact.

The bottom line is what I'm saying and know to be true has the actual people involved stating that that's what happened.
The other story has pissed off fans looking for excuses as to why their team lost a rising star and lost a game...

I know which one has more merit to it anyway

You end by basically saying my version may be true (which it is) but that doesn't make it a fact. That's quite literally the definition of a fact.

[Up Wexford]

Thats a good succinct summary of two or three days of spiel in fairness! I wouldn't class the move as a disaster for us (yes for J) but I'll always think Joey would give us the extra 10% we needed, as another poster has said, our squad was weakened and the fact was we were this close to beating the cheating saracens and our fifth star. A squad built on the victorious Bilbao squad instead of weakened could have done it, but I suppose we will never know.

And moving on indeed, its interesting you mention that very few of the great fullbacks are were specialists, like Halfpenny and Kearney who had natural talent and put in the hours to become the specific and excellent 15 we saw under Schmidt. Pretty much every great full back you care to mention, Jason Robinson, Folau,Serge Blanco, Percy Montgomery, Geordan Murphy, were jack of all trades, league converts, or in some cases could play anywhere in the backs. I would've though the opposite was the case but there ya go. Logically you could make the arguement that every position at the top top level should be highly specialised, BO'D himself said 13 was vastly different to 12 but the evidence dont back this up. I suppose to keep this on topic, what is the best course of action are at FB in the medium term? Jordan all the way?

Didnt realise Dardis was no longer an option, am I right in saying he has comitted fully to 7's? Keenan has been very impressive in his appearances but he looks very young, not that it matters, if youre good enough your old enough as Stu would have it

[joooooe]

There was this player, who was playing, albeit out of position most of the time, for the best team in Europe. He was rightly being lauded as the future international 10 and he let his impatience and possibly ego get the better of him by moving to a rival club who have tended to be on the wrong end of results against his old team. He also left behind possibly the best coaching and development structure in Europe and the opportunity to continue learning off the best player in the world, who also plays his position. Within a few months he has ended up on a higher wage and longer contract so he got that aspect right, I suppose.

If you ask me, Neymar should never have left Barcelona for PSG.

[Flash Gordon]

15 is different though because is so similar to wing and you don't have the same game management pressures as at 10.

That's a myth that needs exploding. That is why people think they can take any wing at all or indeed any centre and slot him into FB. That is so wrong. It is a specialist position and the FB is key in defensive organisation and backfield management. Furthermore the FB dictates to the flyhalf the intended positioning on restarts. It is not a role for a young player especially one who has not been there through his entire development.[/quote]

Jordan Larmour seems to be doing ok and Carbery was doing ok till he was moved. Larmour played center in school and is now getting picked at FB for Leinster and Ireland. Rob Kearney started his Leinster career on the wing. Conway, Zebo and Lowe have all played FB and wing. Henshaw FB and center. Madigan and Carbery played outhalf and FB. What you say is true about the position's importance and the skill set is different but a lot of players seem to be able to switch position at a high level.

[Dave Cahill]

Carbery was moved from Leinster by Schmidt and Nucifora, he had little choice in the matter.

He was moved to Munster because they realised that they couldn't force him to go to Ulster, their initial destination of choice.

It was felt that him moving would enable him to get more gametime in the 10 jersey as Leinster had realised that Byrne was a better option at 10 for Leinster and that Carbery was a more likely replacement for Kearney in the long term than he was for Sexton.

This wouldn't have been an issue if Schmidt and the Incompetron Millennium Edition had any kind of foresight and placed Madigan in Connacht when they had the opportunity to do so before he signed for Bristol.

Do you know all this for a fact? because you're stating things as if they're facts. Everything I have said is a fact and there are whole articles written with quotes that are publicly available to back it up.

Gosh, its almost as it they have some guy, lets call him, I don't know, a Media Manager, who scripts a narrative that all parties agree to in advance and then stick to.

Facts aren't truth, they're just facts. There are many things that are absolutely 100% factual, but aren't true.

[Workhorse]

Gosh, its almost as it they have some guy, lets call him, I don't know, a Media Manager, who scripts a narrative that all parties agree to in advance and then stick to.

Facts aren't truth, they're just facts. There are many things that are absolutely 100% factual, but aren't true.

Or just maybe... And stop me if it's too outlandish... All the story's are similar because its the truth. A shock I know.
The simple facts are the whole moved by the IRFU narrative revolves around people not believing that a player would want to leave Leinster, no matter how competitive their position is or how high their international ambitions are, just that its inconceivable that a player might think being first choice at another Champions Cup team is better than being 2nd/3rd choice at Leinster... Because that's completely impossible.

[Up Wexford]

I think its in everyone's best interests to realize that leaving Leinster is a terrible idea

[meathman3]

.[/quote]

Jordan Larmour seems to be doing ok and Carbery was doing ok till he was moved. Larmour played center in school and is now getting picked at FB for Leinster and Ireland. Rob Kearney started his Leinster career on the wing. Conway, Zebo and Lowe have all played FB and wing. Henshaw FB and center. Madigan and Carbery played outhalf and FB. What you say is true about the position's importance and the skill set is different but a lot of players seem to be able to switch position at a high level.[/quote]

Larmour was exposed by England, Carbery by Clermont. Kearney was a FB all through his development years, was only briefly on the wing to accommodate Girvan before his performance against the ABs forced people to recognise his best position. Henshaw at FB in the infamous 2019 experiment was a disaster as we can all remember Wings like Conway, Zebo and Lowe are all fine at FB until it comes to test level where defensive nous is key. Cannot understand why it is not held in the same regard as flyhalf. The symbiosis between Sexton and Kearney was key to so much success. Yet one is treated like goldust and the other is just cast aside with a rookie given the role.

[Avenger]

That's an awful lot of chat about a lad that will never play for Leinster again.
He's gone. No need to spend pages discussing him/how he left/why he left.

[Ruckedtobits]

That's an awful lot of chat about a lad that will never play for Leinster again.
He's gone. No need to spend pages discussing him/how he left/why he left.

+1, +1.