Leinster Squad 19-20

[Dave Cahill]

The Cheika effect.

Joe .... quieter coaches.

Don't know about that - he was quite capable of stripping the paint of the walls when he needed to, with acid as well as volume

[OTT]

I know it was a hypothetical but if we had the money to go and sign an outside back I would wonder why we were letting Tomane go tbh (if that is true). This season he contributed handsomely to our league run starting 8 of the 13 unbeaten games. He was down to start our first European game but had to pull out with an injury but I would not have had any fear in him being up to speed he has looked so reassured in an understated way. I know he has played exclusively in the centre this season but he could definitely push out to the wing if we needed but we probably would not need him to. He knows what is expected, he is up to speed with our style, if young guys are deserving to be picked ahead of him then they will be he is not in the world class bracket that would mean he is blocking anyone.

If we sign someone then of course I will get on board with it but I don't think at the minute we are crying out for someone.

[ronk]

ROL will be doing very well to get 10+ caps.

Maybe. He’s a good versatile player and really the best challenger who covers 12-14. There are 4 centres clear ahead of him but all of them have had plenty of injuries (often 2 at the same time) and Aki is the wrong side of 30, only Ringrose is younger.

McCloskey and Scannell are competitors but I think he can make squads ahead of them with a run of form.

Irish wingers are Conway, Kearney, Stockdale, Earls, Sweetnam, Lowe. Earls and Kearney have age against them.

Fullbacks are Larmour, Addison and maybe Gallagher/Haley, break glass is Carbery. If Addison is injured then there really isn’t the same level of versatility without moving Larmour (and he’s being developed as a fullback).

There are rotation places to pickup caps in November internationals and summer tours, especially Lions years. ROL has a relatively high ceiling.

Who are the young players breaking into the Irish back line? There’s a gap in the production line unless Daly or Baloucoune come on.

[ronk]

I know it was a hypothetical but if we had the money to go and sign an outside back I would wonder why we were letting Tomane go tbh (if that is true). This season he contributed handsomely to our league run starting 8 of the 13 unbeaten games. He was down to start our first European game but had to pull out with an injury but I would not have had any fear in him being up to speed he has looked so reassured in an understated way. I know he has played exclusively in the centre this season but he could definitely push out to the wing if we needed but we probably would not need him to. He knows what is expected, he is up to speed with our style, if young guys are deserving to be picked ahead of him then they will be he is not in the world class bracket that would mean he is blocking anyone.

If we sign someone then of course I will get on board with it but I don't think at the minute we are crying out for someone.

We aren’t signing an outside back. Tomane being released is just musical chairs. Who was unsigned at the time of COVID, is on largish money and isn’t required by the Irish team.

It’s extreme enough that even Toner could be out.

[erskinechilders]

Leinster could do with another quality back three signing. We will be quite short in that area once Kearney & MCF leave, and with just Larmour and Lowe as the clear, international class, starters in those positions. Lancaster & Cullen clearly wanted a second receiver style player at 15 when Carbery was here. A great signing would be Davidi Havili from the Crusaders. Lowe and JGP will be/ are IQ soon and so there will definitely be ample space. Havili is losing his starting spot at the Crusaders to Will Jordan and so could be available. He'd definetely improve the back three, and add a 2nd playmakers to our back line behind whoever is starting at 10.

[wixfjord]

Good shout, he's a serious baller.

[mildlyinterested]

Leinster weren't signing anyone pre-pandemic. Now they certainly aren't doing it due to the financial crisis caused by the pandemic.

[wixfjord]

Leinster weren't signing anyone pre-pandemic. Now they certainly aren't doing it due to the financial crisis caused by the pandemic.

You really are a barrel of laughs mildly wha?

Nobody saying we should sign him now or that we could sign him. It’s pure fantasy. Let us indulge.

[ronk]

Leinster weren't signing anyone pre-pandemic. Now they certainly aren't doing it due to the financial crisis caused by the pandemic.

You really are a barrel of laughs mildly wha?

Nobody saying we should sign him now or that we could sign him. It’s pure fantasy. Let us indulge.

Great time to sign someone while they are cheap.

[neiliog93]

Asafo Aumua. Absolute freakshow of a hooker who hasn't got a look-in with the ABs since making his debut in 2017, and still only 23. Bryan Byrne doesn't look to be returning and Cronin will be gone at the end of the season.

[hugonaut]

Homegrown senior squad outside backs u30
Barry Daly(27/Gonzaga) - 36 caps, 19 tries
Rory O'Loughlin(26/St. Michaels) - 67 caps, 21 tries, 1 ireland cap
Adam Byrne(26/Naas)- 57 caps, 20 tries, 1 ireland cap
Cian Kelleher(26/St. Michaels) - 14 caps, 5 tries
Garry Ringrose(25/Blackrock) - 72 caps, 24 tries, 26 ireland caps
Conor O'Brien(24/Mullingar) - 23 caps, 6 tries
Hugo Keenan(24/Blackrock) - 14 caps, 1 try
Jimmy O'Brien(23/Newbridge) - 17 caps, 3 tries
Jordan Larmour(23/St. Andrews) - 46 caps, 12 tries, 24 ireland caps
Gavin Mullin(22/Blackrock) - 2 caps
Tommy O'Brien(22/Blackrock) - 3 caps, 1 try

11. Cian Kelleher(26)/Barry Daly(27)
12. Rory O'Loughlin(26)/Conor O'Brien(24)
13. Garry Ringrose(25)/Jimmy O'Brien(23)
14. Adam Byrne(26)/Tommy O'Brien(22)
15. Jordan Larmour(23)/Hugo Keenan(24)

Outside of Ringrose/Larmour, do any of the other senior backs look like likely 50+ cap internationals? ROL is a good 3rd centre and possible wing cover. Daly and Byrne have both struggled of late for game time due to injuries and lack of form. Kelleher had a good season upon return to Leinster but will he ever be 1st choice? COB lost game time to Tomane this season frustratingly from his point of view after a very good season last year. Keenan and JOB have played well in pro 14 but have yet to play in europe. Mullin and O'Brien were probably set for more opportunities this year but covid has prevented that.

I think there are some very talented players in there – Tommy O'Brien and Conor O'Brien have international ability. Whether or not they go on to win 50+ caps is unknowable. Much harder to pick up a lot of caps off the bench as an outside back [one player covering anywhere between three and five positions] than, for example, a tighthead or a hooker [one player covering one position]. If you're taking in No13 as an outside back, we've got two of the current four test starters in Ringrose [25] and Larmour [23]; Conway is also a product of the Leinster system, so really you're looking at Stockdale as the odd one out. If current form carries through to 2021, Lowe will take his place.

With Lowe, Larmour and Ringrose in possession of Leinster jerseys, the only one really up for grabs is the No14 jersey, which DK has done a phenomenal job in this season. I was very impressed with Kelleher last season too. An awful lot depends on who hits the ground running in August.

From my perspective, when you are looking for test quality outside backs you're really looking for massive natural talent and, pragmatically, for that talent to be hot-housed in a school where rugby is a massive deal. Those are the key ingredients, and they are in the mix before those lads are anywhere near a professional rugby environment.

Hickie [b. 1976, test debut @ 20 y.o.], Horgan [b. 1978, test debut @ 21 y.o.], Drico [b. 1979, test debut @ 20 y.o.], Darcy [b. 1980, test debut @ 19 y.o.], Rob Kearney [b. 1986, test debut @ 21 y.o.], Luke Fitz [b. 1987, test debut @ 20 y.o.] - the three-quarters/fullbacks that were Lions over recent tours were all [with the exception of Horgan] schoolboy superstars who were being written up as internationals before they had done their Leaving Cert. Correctly written up, I should add. It was really obvious that they were going to be test-level players.

Horgan was obviously different because he came through Boyne via Lansdowne [timeline here: https://www.independent.ie/regionals/dr ... 21780.html ] but if anything his selection into the Leinster and Ireland teams in such a short space of time from a non-traditional background only amplifies how naturally talented he was.

Obviously this is all quite subjective, but I'd say that post-Fitz, Conway [b.1991, test debut @ 25] was the next superstar talent three-quarter/fullback to come into the Leinster system. He was an amazing age-grade player. Compared to the lads above, it took him forever to make the step up to test rugby.

Then you have Ringer [b.1995, test debut @ 21 y.o.] who was very arguably not a schoolboy superstar like Hickie or Darcy, but was an U20 World Player of the Year Nominee before joining the Academy; and Larmour [b.1997, test debut @ 20 y.o.] who was every bit the schoolboy superstar.

I still occasionally wonder what the story was with James McKeown, the 2016 Belvedere College winger who scored three tries in the semi-final and two in the final, won the cup and looked like a pro waiting to happen. He was on a Leinster U18 Schools team with Larmour, so I figure born in the same year. And then there's Conor Nash, the one that got away! Very much out of the same mould [and same county] as Shane Horgan.

In short, what I'm saying is that the Leinster Academy [or any academy] can't manufacture a star without the raw materials for a star, which are beyond their control. Their job is to convert potential into ability, or to put it another way, to process a talented young player into an able professional capable of playing at a high level. The current coaching staff, especially Leo, have shown that when somebody comes into the organisation with that extra bit of talent they have no problem putting him into action - the quick promotions of Ringrose and Larmour are evidence of that.

[mildlyinterested]

James McKeown went to Australia after 6th year for a year. Was playing AIL for Old Belvedere this season, scoring 6 tries while featuring at 14, their top try scorer. Was part of a very successful Belvedere team that had very few players even play Irish 20s. Larmour and Jack Kelly joined the academy straight from school from his age group.

Other than that not much I can disagree with, although Ringrose was undoubtedly a school star when he finished school inspiring Rock to a cup win over michaels but he was an unknown at the start of his 6th year in school.

Have to factor in losing Carbery as a 15 too.

[ronk]

Front row is 1 player covering half a position.

[Morf]

Is Schmidt's tenure at Leinster and Ireland part of the issue with the likes of Conway being capped later?

They had to be dead solid on things that required practice, coaching and experience rather than mercurial talent e.g. shepherding lines, hitting rucks, sufficient animation in plays and multi-phase roles.

Am aware that Stockdale is the massive exception to that.

[ronk]

Is Schmidt's tenure at Leinster and Ireland part of the issue with the likes of Conway being capped later?

They had to be dead solid on things that required practice, coaching and experience rather than mercurial talent e.g. shepherding lines, hitting rucks, sufficient animation in plays and multi-phase roles.

Am aware that Stockdale is the massive exception to that.

I don’t think so. Munster signed van den Heever before the next season. It took him a while to establish himself at Munster. He wasn’t picked for Ireland because other guys were better. It was his 4th season before he scored more than 4 tries in a season.

[Morf]

Is Schmidt's tenure at Leinster and Ireland part of the issue with the likes of Conway being capped later?

They had to be dead solid on things that required practice, coaching and experience rather than mercurial talent e.g. shepherding lines, hitting rucks, sufficient animation in plays and multi-phase roles.

Am aware that Stockdale is the massive exception to that.

I don’t think so. Munster signed van den Heever before the next season. It took him a while to establish himself at Munster. He wasn’t picked for Ireland because other guys were better. It was his 4th season before he scored more than 4 tries in a season.

I might not have phrased that too well. Rather than Conway specifically but the likes of Gilroy, A Byrne, Healy etc who had prolific periods.

[mildlyinterested]

So do long term do leinster have some outstanding outside back talents coming through the system?

Outside Centre
Liam Turner(Blackrock/DUFC/U22) - 5'8
Marcus Kiely(Newbridge/U20) - 6'3
Fionn Gibbons(Castleknock/U19) - 6'4

Turner spent this season playing 7's rugby, I would say it's unclear right now what sort of future he has at leinster, due to size concerns. Kiely and Gibbons are both big physical centres, Kiely will be hoping to cement a place for irish 20's at 13. Gibbons was a star for Knock in the cup and returns to school this year.

Wing
Aaron O'Sullivan(Exile/Blackrock/U22) - 6'2
Andrew Smith(St. Michaels/Clontarf/U21) - 6'0
Josh O'Connor(Wexford RFC/UCD/U20) - 5'11
Shane Mallon(Longford RFC-Roscrea/U19) - 6'0
Aitzol King(Balbriggan RFC-CUS/U19) - 6'3
Jack Hanlon(Tullow RFC/U19) - 6'0

O'Sullivan spent this season focusing on 7's, I would say it's unclear right now what sort of future he has at leinster, if any. Smith impressed greatly in his first season out of school for Leinster A and Ireland U20. O'Connor coming from a club background spent the season in the sub-academy and playing some 7's and AIL, he will be hoping to nail a wing position for the 20's this season. Mallon, King and Hanlon all are interesting prospects but have a lot to do before they get to academy level.

Fullback
Michael Silvester(Clongowes/DUFC/U23) - 6'0
Chris Cosgrave(St. Michaels/U20) - 6'0
Jamie Osborne(Naas RFC/U20) - 6'3
Fionn O'Hara(Mullingar RFC/U19) - 6'3

Silvester spent this 1st half of the season focusing on 7's, returned to the AIL and got injured, I would say he faces an uphill battle to have a future at leinster. Cosgrave is probably the definition of a schools star, is he destined to be a Jordan Larmour or a Billy Dardis? Or somewhere in between? we shall have to wait and see. He could end up on the wing either. Osborne is a big athletic back, coming from a club background he will spend the season in the sub-academy, but he looks to have a lot of potential, he could end up at either 15 or on the wing. O'Hara is an outstanding athlete, he looked set to play AFL until the covid crisis, an underage outhalf he looks like a candidate to move to 15.

In summary i'd be hopeful that leinster have some prospects coming through the system that could be potential stars at senior level, all going well. Though the top prospects are all pretty young still and have yet to prove their ability at an irish u20 level.

[OTT]

Could you do a bit of a bio on each of them if you get the time. Just strengths/weaknesses, what position they might end up, their potential in your opinion type of thing.

I know the academy guys a bit and some of the former school stars but the others not really at all.

If you don't have the time, no worries.

[EnergiaPark70]

So do long term do leinster have some outstanding outside back talents coming through the system?

Outside Centre
Liam Turner(Blackrock/DUFC/U22) - 5'9
Marcus Kiely(Newbridge/U20) - 6'2
Fionn Gibbons(Castleknock/U19) - 6'4

Turner spent this season playing 7's rugby, I would say it's unclear right now what sort of future he has at leinster, due to size concerns. Kiely and Gibbons are both big physical centres, Kiely will be hoping to cement a place for irish 20's at 13. Gibbons was a star for Knock in the cup and returns to school this year.

Wing
Aaron O'Sullivan(Exile/Blackrock/U22) - 6'2
Andrew Smith(St. Michaels/Clontarf/U21) - 6'0
Josh O'Connor(Wexford RFC/UCD/U20) - 5'11
Shane Mallon(Longford RFC-Roscrea/U19) - 6'0
Aitzol King(Balbriggan RFC-CUS/U19) - 6'3
Jack Hanlon(Tullow RFC/U19) - 6'0

O'Sullivan spent this season focusing on 7's, I would say it's unclear right now what sort of future he has at leinster, if any. Smith impressed greatly in his first season out of school for Leinster A and Ireland U20. O'Connor coming from a club background spent the season in the sub-academy and playing some 7's and AIL, he will be hoping to nail a wing position for the 20's this season. Mallon, King and Hanlon all are interesting prospects but have a lot to do before they get to academy level.

Fullback
Michael Silvester(Clongowes/DUFC/U23) - 6'0
Chris Cosgrave(St. Michaels/U20) - 6'0
Jamie Osborne(Naas RFC/U20) - 6'3
Fionn O'Hara(Mullingar RFC/U19) - 6'3

Silvester spent this 1st half of the season focusing on 7's, returned to the AIL and got injured, I would say he faces an uphill battle to have a future at leinster. Cosgrave is probably the definition of a schools star, is he destined to be a Jordan Larmour or a Billy Dardis? Or somewhere in between? we shall have to wait and see. Osborne is a big athletic fullback/wing, coming from a club background he will spend the season in the sub-academy, but he looks to have a lot of potential. O'Hara is an outstanding athlete, he looked set to play AFL until the covid crisis, an underage outhalf he looks like a candidate to move to 15.

In summary i'd be hopeful that leinster have some prospects coming through the system that could be potential stars at senior level, all going well. Though the top prospects are all pretty young still and have yet to prove their ability at an irish u20 level.

Surely Karl Martin would be included in this. One of the most promising prospects coming through. Played Ireland 18s at 15 and very likely to play centre at 20s next year

[mildlyinterested]

Updated that with some detail, this seasons upcoming 20's have 4 very good prospects in the outside backs with Kiely, Cosgrave, O'Connor and Osborne. Are any of them set for a Ringrose/Larmour like rise? It looks unlikely, with Cosgrave being the most likely of the four to bolt...