Leinster v Ulster

A forum for true blue Leinster supporters to talk about and support their team

Moderator: moderators

Post Reply
carlow man
Graduate
Posts: 540
Joined: August 22nd, 2014, 4:25 pm

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by carlow man »

Conan is quality but a lot of people prefer their number 8 to run over people which is exactly what stander does. Conan is a more rounded number 8 but think he needs a huge second half of the season for him to to challenge the likes of stander to a starting spot for Ireland. Deegan has the knack of being in the right place at the right time. Reads the game well, seems more powerful than he looks. Has all the attributes to be top class but rumours are that he isn't as dedicated as other back rows at the club.

User avatar
hugonaut
Shane Jennings
Posts: 5230
Joined: May 5th, 2009, 7:44 pm

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by hugonaut »

wixfjord wrote:
the spoofer wrote:
I'd like to see Deegan get a run of games. Conan's stats might be impressive but I just don't see it with him. He hasn't the work rate of Leavy, VDF or the hard b$&%@#d edge of Fardy. Deegan is in the JH MKII mould to me, reads the game, great footwork, good hands. Might need a little more grunt.
For me that's what Conan gives you. And with a little more grunt.

I think he's very underrated even on here.
He gets over the gainline. It's the equivalent to getting on base in Moneyball terminology, i.e. massively important. 363m from 106 carries is almost 3.5m/carry. None of our backrowers can match that or even come close to it.

Ruddock: 109 carries /136m = 1.2m/carry
Murphy: 44 caries/65m = 1.5m/carry
van der Flier: 47 carries/79m = 1.6m/carry
O'Brien: 41 carries/80m = 2m/carry
Leavy: 65 carries/132m = 2m/carry
Deegan: 58 carries /147m = 2.5m/carry
Doris: 59 carries/156m = 2.6m/carry
Conan: 106 carries/363m = 3.4m/carry

carlow man
Graduate
Posts: 540
Joined: August 22nd, 2014, 4:25 pm

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by carlow man »

Conan seems to find pockets of space to run into which shows he reads the space well ahead of him. Sob, rhys and dan seem to look for contact and barge their way through rather than use quick feet and go around players.

User avatar
hugonaut
Shane Jennings
Posts: 5230
Joined: May 5th, 2009, 7:44 pm

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by hugonaut »

carlow man wrote:Conan is quality but a lot of people prefer their number 8 to run over people which is exactly what stander does. Conan is a more rounded number 8 but think he needs a huge second half of the season for him to to challenge the likes of stander to a starting spot for Ireland. Deegan has the knack of being in the right place at the right time. Reads the game well, seems more powerful than he looks. Has all the attributes to be top class but rumours are that he isn't as dedicated as other back rows at the club.
Stander didn't do it at the weekend: he had 7m gained from 13 carries, Conan had 39m from 14 carries.

Actually did a little bit of looking into it yesterday and they've gone head to head five times in the last two years at No8. Conan has run for more metres in four out of 5 of those games, the odd one out being the 07.10.17 game at Lansdowne, where Stander pipped him by 4m, 15m to 11m.

When you look at their cumulative head to head over that period, the difference is really striking
Conan: 59 carries/144m = 11.8 carries/match, 2.44m/carry
Stander: 83 carries/76m = 16.6 carries/match, 0.91m/carry

Stander gets it done in massive games for Ireland, and he's got a phenomenal attitude. He always wants the ball and wants to win every single contact. He's a super player. But time after time, Conan outperforms him in his best element when Leinster and Munster play.

carlow man
Graduate
Posts: 540
Joined: August 22nd, 2014, 4:25 pm

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by carlow man »

The difference is stander just hits it up the middle whereas Conan takes the ball in space. Munster generally just play one out rugby and cj is the go to man. Leinster go out the back to sexton and get the backs moving quicker. Munster don't have any backline moves which is why they are streets behind Leinster in that area of the game.

User avatar
hugonaut
Shane Jennings
Posts: 5230
Joined: May 5th, 2009, 7:44 pm

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by hugonaut »

Jack McGrath, Rob Kearney and Barry Daly all due to be available for selection: https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 69621.html

Welcome back lads!

User avatar
Laighin Break
Mullet
Posts: 1022
Joined: May 3rd, 2012, 9:35 am
Location: Scandinavia

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by Laighin Break »

hugonaut wrote:Jack McGrath, Rob Kearney and Barry Daly all due to be available for selection: https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 69621.html

Welcome back lads!
The Leinster announcement wasn't as positive. Barry Daly expected back but the other two returning to training this week. May yet be a week too soon...

wixfjord
Shane Jennings
Posts: 5586
Joined: April 13th, 2009, 1:00 pm

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by wixfjord »

hugonaut wrote:
carlow man wrote:Conan is quality but a lot of people prefer their number 8 to run over people which is exactly what stander does. Conan is a more rounded number 8 but think he needs a huge second half of the season for him to to challenge the likes of stander to a starting spot for Ireland. Deegan has the knack of being in the right place at the right time. Reads the game well, seems more powerful than he looks. Has all the attributes to be top class but rumours are that he isn't as dedicated as other back rows at the club.
Stander didn't do it at the weekend: he had 7m gained from 13 carries, Conan had 39m from 14 carries.

Actually did a little bit of looking into it yesterday and they've gone head to head five times in the last two years at No8. Conan has run for more metres in four out of 5 of those games, the odd one out being the 07.10.17 game at Lansdowne, where Stander pipped him by 4m, 15m to 11m.

When you look at their cumulative head to head over that period, the difference is really striking
Conan: 59 carries/144m = 11.8 carries/match, 2.44m/carry
Stander: 83 carries/76m = 16.6 carries/match, 0.91m/carry

Stander gets it done in massive games for Ireland, and he's got a phenomenal attitude. He always wants the ball and wants to win every single contact. He's a super player. But time after time, Conan outperforms him in his best element when Leinster and Munster play.
In fairness though one stat doesn't tell the full story. While I agree I think he has outperformed Stander when they've played against each other, they're very different types of carriers who tend to get the ball in different places.
Stander tends to carry more into heavy traffic and is better at that. Conan does less of that and carries a bit wider most of the time.

Stander is still way ahead at test level for me.

wixfjord
Shane Jennings
Posts: 5586
Joined: April 13th, 2009, 1:00 pm

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by wixfjord »

Going by the pics alone it looks like RK and Daly trained fairly well today.
https://www.sportsfile.com/more-images/1812132/#3

Jack seemed to sit a bit out.

User avatar
Dave Cahill
Gordon D'Arcy
Posts: 22480
Joined: January 24th, 2006, 4:32 pm
Location: None of your damn business
Contact:

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by Dave Cahill »

wixfjord wrote: Stander is still way ahead at test level for me.
Stander is serviceable at 8 at test level, nothing more and never will be anything more. Unbalancing our back row by playing him at 8 in order to squeeze O'Mahoney into the team at any cost is one of the biggest obstacles between us and a World Cup title
I have Bumbleflex

wixfjord
Shane Jennings
Posts: 5586
Joined: April 13th, 2009, 1:00 pm

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by wixfjord »

Dave Cahill wrote:
wixfjord wrote: Stander is still way ahead at test level for me.
Stander is serviceable at 8 at test level, nothing more and never will be anything more. Unbalancing our back row by playing him at 8 in order to squeeze O'Mahoney into the team at any cost is one of the biggest obstacles between us and a World Cup title
Maybe so, but that's not what I said.

User avatar
hugonaut
Shane Jennings
Posts: 5230
Joined: May 5th, 2009, 7:44 pm

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by hugonaut »

Dave Cahill wrote:
wixfjord wrote: Stander is still way ahead at test level for me.
Stander is serviceable at 8 at test level, nothing more and never will be anything more. Unbalancing our back row by playing him at 8 in order to squeeze O'Mahoney into the team at any cost is one of the biggest obstacles between us and a World Cup title
Both players played really well this year.

Not a big year for No8s on the international scene. Billy Vunipola missed a huge amount of rugby and Kieran Read didn't look up to pace on his return from injury/surgery/rehab [understandably].

The Boks split gametime between Vermulen, who's not as good as he used to be, and Whiteley, who is surprisingly old [31] and a really good club player and a really average test player. Australia don't have a No8 at all. Ortega Desio did pretty well for the Pumas in the Rugby Championship, but he's not a standout by any means.

Picamoles hardly featured in the Six Nations and didn't tour New Zealand. Kevin Gourdon played well on that tour but doesn't actually play No8 that often. Parisse is on the other side of finished [after 17 seasons of international rugby, in fairness]. I couldn't remember who Scotland's No8 was, I had to look it up – Ryan Wilson. Says something about my memory and something about Wilson, you decide. Faletau – who is under-rated in Ireland but an amazing player – missed most of the Six Nations, was rested for the summer tour and then broke his arm before the November internationals.

Viliame Mata played for Fiji when they beat France but beyond that there's not a huge amount to recommend him. Gorgodze hasn't played for Georgia since 2017.

So in my opinion, if you're looking at who the best test No8 in the world was in 2018, pretty much all of the evidence points to C.J. Stander.

Blueberry
Knowledgeable
Posts: 383
Joined: April 4th, 2017, 10:14 pm

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by Blueberry »

Not a stander fan, never have been and never will be unless he alters his game. It's a mindset. Stander always looks to run over a player, physically dominate them and never looks for space or to step. Classic SA player - his stats endlessly back this up and watch him against good teams - carries get's hit and makes few yards. Can't fault his energy and enthusiasm and willingness to go the 'well' but he is a limited 'bash it up the middle' number 8. Conan has a higher ceiling and shows much more rugby intelligence. Much more of a Heaslip in terms of movement. Stander is a poor man's Vunipola (albeit one that isn't broken down all the time).

It's a huge call but for me if Conan continues to develop and stays injury free (Stander does have a good injury record on his side) he offers more long term to this Irish team. But time will tell. Stander's robustness may well keep him in the gig but he's not a great.

User avatar
hugonaut
Shane Jennings
Posts: 5230
Joined: May 5th, 2009, 7:44 pm

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by hugonaut »

Blueberry wrote:Not a stander fan, never have been and never will be unless he alters his game. It's a mindset. Stander always looks to run over a player, physically dominate them and never looks for space or to step. Classic SA player - his stats endlessly back this up and watch him against good teams - carries get's hit and makes few yards. Can't fault his energy and enthusiasm and willingness to go the 'well' but he is a limited 'bash it up the middle' number 8. Conan has a higher ceiling and shows much more rugby intelligence. Much more of a Heaslip in terms of movement. Stander is a poor man's Vunipola (albeit one that isn't broken down all the time).

It's a huge call but for me if Conan continues to develop and stays injury free (Stander does have a good injury record on his side) he offers more long term to this Irish team. But time will tell. Stander's robustness may well keep him in the gig but he's not a great.
Big Stander fan, he has grown on me a lot. He's sort of limited, but I love his attitude, it's tremendous. He's a test match animal, to use McGeechan's phrase. Rugby is a confrontational game and he never backs down.

With Conan, I think he's still getting better. We missed him a lot against Bath in the away match. Trying to think how he could improve, I think I'd like to see him offload the ball more often - he gets over the gainline really well, but I think that there's some degree of being too well-coached/conservative about retaining the ball at all costs. He's a big dude who wins a lot of contacts, I think it'd be something he could add more of to his game.

User avatar
Dave Cahill
Gordon D'Arcy
Posts: 22480
Joined: January 24th, 2006, 4:32 pm
Location: None of your damn business
Contact:

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by Dave Cahill »

hugonaut wrote: Both players played really well this year.

Not a big year for No8s on the international scene. Billy Vunipola missed a huge amount of rugby and Kieran Read didn't look up to pace on his return from injury/surgery/rehab [understandably].

The Boks split gametime between Vermulen, who's not as good as he used to be, and Whiteley, who is surprisingly old [31] and a really good club player and a really average test player. Australia don't have a No8 at all. Ortega Desio did pretty well for the Pumas in the Rugby Championship, but he's not a standout by any means.

Picamoles hardly featured in the Six Nations and didn't tour New Zealand. Kevin Gourdon played well on that tour but doesn't actually play No8 that often. Parisse is on the other side of finished [after 17 seasons of international rugby, in fairness]. I couldn't remember who Scotland's No8 was, I had to look it up – Ryan Wilson. Says something about my memory and something about Wilson, you decide. Faletau – who is under-rated in Ireland but an amazing player – missed most of the Six Nations, was rested for the summer tour and then broke his arm before the November internationals.

Viliame Mata played for Fiji when they beat France but beyond that there's not a huge amount to recommend him. Gorgodze hasn't played for Georgia since 2017.

So in my opinion, if you're looking at who the best test No8 in the world was in 2018, pretty much all of the evidence points to C.J. Stander.
You're damning him with some very faint praise there!
hugonaut wrote: Big Stander fan, he has grown on me a lot. He's sort of limited, but I love his attitude, it's tremendous. He's a test match animal, to use McGeechan's phrase. Rugby is a confrontational game and he never backs down.

With Conan, I think he's still getting better. We missed him a lot against Bath in the away match. Trying to think how he could improve, I think I'd like to see him offload the ball more often - he gets over the gainline really well, but I think that there's some degree of being too well-coached/conservative about retaining the ball at all costs. He's a big dude who wins a lot of contacts, I think it'd be something he could add more of to his game.
I'm a fan of Stander as a player as well, and I think that if played him at 6, with a proper 7 and 8 we would have a world cup winning back row
I have Bumbleflex

User avatar
hugonaut
Shane Jennings
Posts: 5230
Joined: May 5th, 2009, 7:44 pm

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by hugonaut »

ronk wrote: I'd also give Molony a start, give Ryan a week off/bench.
Good call on that count, Ross deserves a start. For me it'd mean Conan at No8 and Deegan on the bench – we lose a lot of ball carrying if we swop Ryaner for Molony.

User avatar
ronk
Rob Kearney
Posts: 10294
Joined: April 9th, 2009, 12:42 am

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by ronk »

Last time Stander and Conan plated together, Jack went to 6. Position is locked down.

Might be a match for Doris at 6 to add some ball carrying.

Daly will be a big boost when fit.

User avatar
Peg Leg
Cian Healy
Posts: 9368
Joined: February 1st, 2010, 6:08 pm
Location: Procrastinasia
Contact:

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by Peg Leg »

hugonaut wrote:
carlow man wrote:Conan is quality but a lot of people prefer their number 8 to run over people which is exactly what stander does. Conan is a more rounded number 8 but think he needs a huge second half of the season for him to to challenge the likes of stander to a starting spot for Ireland. Deegan has the knack of being in the right place at the right time. Reads the game well, seems more powerful than he looks. Has all the attributes to be top class but rumours are that he isn't as dedicated as other back rows at the club.
Stander didn't do it at the weekend: he had 7m gained from 13 carries, Conan had 39m from 14 carries.

Actually did a little bit of looking into it yesterday and they've gone head to head five times in the last two years at No8. Conan has run for more metres in four out of 5 of those games, the odd one out being the 07.10.17 game at Lansdowne, where Stander pipped him by 4m, 15m to 11m.

When you look at their cumulative head to head over that period, the difference is really striking
Conan: 59 carries/144m = 11.8 carries/match, 2.44m/carry
Stander: 83 carries/76m = 16.6 carries/match, 0.91m/carry

Stander gets it done in massive games for Ireland, and he's got a phenomenal attitude. He always wants the ball and wants to win every single contact. He's a super player. But time after time, Conan outperforms him in his best element when Leinster and Munster play.
It's hard to make meters when you don't have the ball though. I'm sure somewhere else someone is posting tackle stats for those games and saying Conan isn't as good as Stander.
"It was Mrs O'Leary's cow"
Daniel Sullivan

User avatar
Serb
Bookworm
Posts: 248
Joined: March 27th, 2012, 3:27 pm

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by Serb »

Peg Leg wrote: It's hard to make meters when you don't have the ball though. I'm sure somewhere else someone is posting tackle stats for those games and saying Conan isn't as good as Stander.
It’s hard to carry when you don’t have the ball too. He’s not comparing the number of carries, he’s looking at gainline success.

However, I do agree that his lack of success on the gainline makes for a harsh comparison when you’re only considering his carries vs Leinster — one of the best defences you’re likely to face.

User avatar
RoboProp
Brian O'Driscoll
Posts: 3303
Joined: December 29th, 2008, 3:45 pm
Location: Mandalore

Re: Leinster v Ulster

Post by RoboProp »

So, the Ulster game :lol:
This is the way

Post Reply