Wasps v Leinster, Jan 20th - 3:15pm

[OTT]

I really hope that, for a must-win game in Europe, we are not selecting players based on the precise minutes Joe Schmidt wants them to get and/or (for the second week in a row) not playing front line players we need.

Where is your source that we didn’t play frontline players that we needed last week? Who was fit that they rested for Ireland? Don’t quote Lancaster either because he did not say we were resting fit players.

You'd have to be very naive not to understand that Joe Schmidt & co have a direct hand in selections with both eyes on the six nations and the world cup - including for European games.

If you look at the players who missed out Kearney (over a number of years) and Leavy (the last few months) have missed matches by dropping out at the last minute maybe it is naive of me to think that they are actually injured sometimes. Henshaw was supposedly going to be out for three months it is amazing that he is in contention at all. Sexton they called early in the week as being out and the indications are that he won't be back for this week either. Toner never misses games through injury but he is allowed to be injured he said he would be back this week. SOB is injured. Jack McGrath was available for selection but was not picked. Lowe is an NIQ who was suspended.

Maybe I am naive and everything is a conspiracy.

[curates_egg]

What two players did you think were match fit?

I think it really depends what you mean by "match fit". I think there are always plenty of players playing that aren't 100%.
As we know, players have played through pretty extreme injuries for Ireland (and for lots of rugby teams) - even for non-competitive test matches. Plenty of recent examples.

I would be surprised if the "niggles" (not my word) that prevented, say, Dev and Rob Kearney from being selected by Leinster last weekend, were anywhere close to some of the injuries that players have played through with Ireland recently.
We will know more when we see the teamsheet for Sunday.

FWIW, I am totally opposed to players playing through serious injuries, notably by using pharmaceutical aids to do so.
However, playing through more minor niggles - like rolling your ankle or a minor quad strain - are par for the course in sport at all levels.
For must-win European games, I think it is something that is justifiable.
Using serious performance-enablers to, say, enable a player to take the field in a summer tour, for example, is something that would be less justifiable, in my view.

But that's, just like, my opinion, man

[OTT]

What two players did you think were match fit?

I think it really depends what you mean by "match fit". I think there are always plenty of players playing that aren't 100%.
As we know, players have played through pretty extreme injuries for Ireland (and for lots of rugby teams) - even for non-competitive test matches. Plenty of recent examples.

I would be surprised if the "niggles" (not my word) that prevented, say, Dev and Rob Kearney from being selected by Leinster last weekend, were anywhere close to some of the injuries that players have played through with Ireland recently.
We will know more when we see the teamsheet for Sunday.

FWIW, I am totally opposed to players playing through serious injuries, notably by using pharmaceutical aids to do so.
However, playing through more minor niggles - like rolling your ankle or a minor quad strain - are par for the course in sport at all levels.
For must-win European games, I think it is something that is justifiable.
Using serious performance-enablers to, say, enable a player to take the field in a summer tour, for example, is something that would be less justifiable, in my view.

But that's, just like, my opinion, man

Is it still your opinion that they picked up all these knocks playing in a nothing match against Munster even though only Sexton played against Munster, listen you have the right to your opinion and don't let any facts get in the way

[desperado]

It's more akin to conjecture.

[desperado]

It's more akin to conjecture.

[mildlyinterested]

“It’s the quality of the opposition,” said Dai Young, Wasps’ director of rugby. “Look at Leinster. They’re missing five Lions and they can still pick 15 internationals. I’ve coached [in the Pro14] and you have two teams, one for your big games and one for the others. It’s not my opinion, it’s factual. You look at how many games they play, the English boys are asked to do a lot more than the Irish.”

[carlow man]

He's right in fairness. Same applies to Welsh lads. Irish players are well looked after when it comes to the impact it may have with the national team. Although I don't agree that schmidt should have a say in which leinster players should be involved in big european games just because the 6 nations is almost here.

[curates_egg]

What two players did you think were match fit?

I think it really depends what you mean by "match fit". I think there are always plenty of players playing that aren't 100%.
As we know, players have played through pretty extreme injuries for Ireland (and for lots of rugby teams) - even for non-competitive test matches. Plenty of recent examples.

I would be surprised if the "niggles" (not my word) that prevented, say, Dev and Rob Kearney from being selected by Leinster last weekend, were anywhere close to some of the injuries that players have played through with Ireland recently.
We will know more when we see the teamsheet for Sunday.

FWIW, I am totally opposed to players playing through serious injuries, notably by using pharmaceutical aids to do so.
However, playing through more minor niggles - like rolling your ankle or a minor quad strain - are par for the course in sport at all levels.
For must-win European games, I think it is something that is justifiable.
Using serious performance-enablers to, say, enable a player to take the field in a summer tour, for example, is something that would be less justifiable, in my view.

But that's, just like, my opinion, man

Is it still your opinion that they picked up all these knocks playing in a nothing match against Munster even though only Sexton played against Munster, listen you have the right to your opinion and don't let any facts get in the way

No, and it never was. I never said that ALL the players missing on Saturday got injured playing Munster.
I noticed that you (or somebody) invented that straw man in response to a post I made in a thread last week. But I didn't respond to it, because it was a straw man.
We lost two very important players through that nothing match however.

Back to this thread, now that we can put to rest your straw man from last week, I maintain my view that I hope that Joe Schmidt is not the prime determining factor in our team selection for a must-win game in Europe. I also respect that other people have different views on that though.

[blockhead]

“It’s the quality of the opposition,” said Dai Young, Wasps’ director of rugby. “Look at Leinster. They’re missing five Lions and they can still pick 15 internationals. I’ve coached [in the Pro14] and you have two teams, one for your big games and one for the others. It’s not my opinion, it’s factual. You look at how many games they play, the English boys are asked to do a lot more than the Irish.”

https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/sport/ot ... ng-2423777

From that same article

'Tribal' Premiership leaves players 'too tired' for Europe
Todd Blackadder has also talked about the dismal season that Premiership clubs have endured in Europe.
The Bath Director of Rugby has pointed the blame at the "tribal" nature of the Premiership, and also talked about the pressure that relegation causes for coaches and players, as rumours circulate that the top English league could be ring-fenced as early as this year.
"I just think with the way the Premiership is, it's just so tribal isn't it?
"We smash the hell out of each other and then we are almost too tired to get out there and have a crack when it comes to the Champions Cup."
He added: "If you look, as an example, at the teams that we played this year, the Leinster players played against the All Blacks, had two weeks off, played against us and had another two weeks off.
"Whereas we have had a massive Premiership block, three massive games where we are losing five or six players a week, and then you go into the Champions Cup and its like the boys are just tired."

[suisse]

Dai Young and Todd Blackadder are not wrong but everyone over there is saying the same thing.

*They don't play the same amount of games. Players are rested. We keep playing.

What's the solution then? Do they want (a) the Pro14 players to play the same number of minutes as the GP or (b) the GP players need more rest time.

I wish someone would call it one way or another. We already know they play a lot of rugby. If Young or Blackadder is concerned about player welfare, it might help if they rocked the boat and announced their support for the way the Pro14 does things.

[carlow man]

It all comes down to central contracts. There is too much money involved in the English game for centrally based contracts to start up. Players will revolt. No need for foreign imports. It's easier to control in Ireland due to number of players they can handle. Most clubs are making a loss every year apart from Leicester and maybe Exeter. All the others are spending a fortune trying to buy success. Wasps are f****d and most of the money invested in them is from irish born/2nd generation irish business men. Sponsorship is the key ingredient in English rugby and the old farts that run the game from Twickenham are so removed from reality they don't want to give power to anyone else. Look how Lancaster was treated by his 'own people' !!!

[fourthirtythree]

The English clubs will always say what the English clubs say "it's everyone else's fault when we aren't any good". They would have stopped relegation years ago except for the ownership issues. I saw Brian Moore recommending conferences to get over this. Also McGeechin (and central contracts!) https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... titive/the only real way to sell that to the clubs would be extra clubs "investing" but given their new ownership model I don't know if that could happen.

As for our "injuries": Sexton has been very publicly "stood down" before when not injured and when Carbery and Marsh were. It's how Ross Byrne got his break. I would be very surprised if this wan't the case with some of our players last weekend. So it goes. Ireland call the shots. This year of all years you have to be okay with that.

[Oldschool]

On reflection.
Kearney - was/is injured.
Henshaw - Probably fit but not ready (conditioning etc) for HEC intensity.
Sexton - Injured.
Jack NcGrath - See Henshaw.
Leavy - Injured.
Toner - With the three into two won't go this was a great opportunity to rest him give him time to recover from any niggles.
Joe's only likely input - If they're fit you can select them but if there's any doubt leave them out.
No doubt with an update attached of each player's game time, projected game time to end of season and target game time with a little reminder that targets will not be permitted to be breached coming into a RWC season.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I really doubt that Joe would be happy for players to be rocking up against England having not played for a month, so if anything I'd say he'd actually want to have seen more players play on Saturday.

[fourthirtythree]

I really doubt that Joe would be happy for players to be rocking up against England having not played for a month, so if anything I'd say he'd actually want to have seen more players play on Saturday.

As we saw with the Sexton furlough a couple of years ago he was made to play against Zebre as the match after the European cup in order to get game time before the six nations. This was a game I would wager Leinster didn't really want him using his minutes in.
So I don't know if Joe really wanted them played last Saturday. In fact I suspect that if he did, they would have.

[Oldschool]

I really doubt that Joe would be happy for players to be rocking up against England having not played for a month, so if anything I'd say he'd actually want to have seen more players play on Saturday.

They can play next week.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I really doubt that Joe would be happy for players to be rocking up against England having not played for a month, so if anything I'd say he'd actually want to have seen more players play on Saturday.

They can play next week.

And if they're fit I'm sure they will.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I saw on Instagram that Elliot Daly was on holidays in SA last week. He may have been injured but I couldn't see anything about it, was he just given the week off? If so, that doesn't bode well for how seriously they'll take this weekend. Himself, Hughes, and Le Roux all rumoured to be off in the summer too, combine that with them being out already and I would hope that a strong start by us will blow them away.

[Oldschool]

I really doubt that Joe would be happy for players to be rocking up against England having not played for a month, so if anything I'd say he'd actually want to have seen more players play on Saturday.

They can play next week.

And if they're fit I'm sure they will.

Well hopefully because Wasps are a potential banana skin and as has been pointed out elsewhere the Toulouse game was of test match intensity so recovery would be an issue although thankfully the extra day will help.

[wixfjord]

I saw on Instagram that Elliot Daly was on holidays in SA last week. He may have been injured but I couldn't see anything about it, was he just given the week off? If so, that doesn't bode well for how seriously they'll take this weekend. Himself, Hughes, and Le Roux all rumoured to be off in the summer too, combine that with them being out already and I would hope that a strong start by us will blow them away.

I hope Le Roux plays. Mercurial player but he is absolutely phoning it in at the moment for Wasps. Think I heard BT say last week that his tackle stats for SA are in the high 80s and for Wasps are in the 50s.

Sopoaga too looks like a different player than he did last year.

Wasps are dangerous, and have a serious back row in Carr, Youngs and Hughes, but we should have more than enough for them.