The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Five.

[wixfjord]

Such a sickener to lose that, mainly because we had it in our grasp.

The 10 mins before and after HT were the losing of it. McGrath's brain fart and Ringrose not passing cost us the game imo.

Thought McGrath was poor throughout. Rushed around looking headless at times.

Little things like Tracy's first throw are the type of stuff you get away with against lesser teams, but Sarries are a very different beast.

Thought our attack was poor in the first half. Couldn't get over the gain line with same ease as Sarries at all. That changed in the second but we couldn't keep it going.

Ciano, Tadhg, Ryan, Fardy, Conan were pick of the day for me. I do wonder whether we would've been better with Rhys on from the start. Not sure who he would've come in for, but we maybe could've done with his carrying oomph.

Ah well, beaten by a better side who thoroughly deserved it.

On to the league...

[domestos]

Quins fan and Englishman. I come in peace.

I thought it was a cracking game of rugby.

Sarrys (I am not a fan) can be awesome when they are in the mood. They were in the mood yesterday. Their play in the last couple of minutes of the first half was tremendous. There was a certain predictability and inevitability about it.

I have watched them, on previous occasions, make steady progress up the pitch when they are defending. quite dispiriting when your team are playing against them. I don't think Sexton had a good game yesterday.

[thepunter]

Below are ALL of Garces' results for Saracens and England since he went Pro. None have been left out.


---------------------------------------------------------------------

Firstly, Leinster have an uphill battle this weekend mainly because Sarries are an excellent team and have been for quite some considerable time.

Unfortunately, Saracens and England seem to have Garces worked out better than any other teams, which is bad for Leinster this weekend.

Garces is a decent ref, has a career and has to eat and no doubt does his best. I believe that if referee appointments for games were made completely random and transparent, referee lives and careers would be made easier and rugby would be a better sport for it. Removing all influence in the choice of referees for individual games would be a boon for the sport. Put the names of those on the panel in a hat the same as the teams are chosen, and do it transparently and publicly for all rugby cup tournaments. League games are different, less is at stake and local practicalities for travel make random referee choice unfeasible for leagues in my eyes.

He was shambolic for the Munster game a couple of weeks ago, with Stuart Barnes and Matt Cooper in Ireland, notable high-profile critics of his breakdown decisions and non-decisions that robbed Munster of momentum. Despite this, Saracens were no doubt the better team and deserved to win.

He also seems to referee many of their high-profile crunch ties unusually often. For example, in the Heineken cup since 2011, Edinburgh are probably the only poor side that he has refereed facing Saracens.
It could be argued that any ref would have given these results. No one is arguing anything untoward has gone on.

Nevertheless, the statistics below, as rudimentary as they are, suggest that Saracens have him worked out.

How are referees appointed to individual games in the Heineken cup? It is not random or conducted with transparency. I have tried to find this information in the past and failed. Rugby is not snooker – decisions are ultimately decided subjectively by the man in the middle, as we all know.

Second, how are referees appointed to Six nations games? What influence do home nations have in selecting referees? It is definitely not randomly from an approved panel nor is the process transparent. I have also tried to find this information out before and failed.

Food for thought.

Leinster management would be crazy to not factor their perceptions of Garces into how they play this weekend.


---------------------------------------------------------------------

Garces in Heineken cup for Saracens, since 2011, 2 loss, 10 wins

Ospreys 13 Saracens 16, Garces, 16/12/2011, Garces Panto villain https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby ... eport.html

Saracens 40 Edinburgh 7, 20/01/2013 Snow, Burgh were brutal then https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby ... eport.html

Ulster 15 Saracens 17, 5/04/2014, Payne sent off after 5 minutes https://www.the42.ie/ulster-payne-sarac ... 0-Apr2014/

LOSS Munster 14 Saracens 3, 24/10/2014, Gill yellow turns it https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/ ... mpions-cup

Saracens 28 Sale 15, 13/12/2014, Farrell and Vunipola shine https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby ... -wins.html

Saracens 33, Ulster 17, 15/01/2016, Farrell misses 5 kickshttps://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby ... group.html

Saracens 29 Northampton 20, 9/04/2016, JJ flings a howler https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/ ... tch-report

Saracens 38 Glasgow 13, 02/04/2017, Ashton https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... tch-report

LOSS Leinster 30 Saracens 19, 01/04/2018, Leinster outclass Saracens https://www.the42.ie/leinster-saracens- ... 2-Apr2018/

Saracens 26 Cardiff 14, 15/12/2018, Coach John Mulvill MASSIVE criticism of Garces, fails to consult TMO https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... e-15556903

Saracens 32 Munster 16, 20/04/2019, Garces shambolic again, breakdown pens against Munster standout https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/saracens ... ter-199023


---------------------------------------------------------------------

Garces in 6 nations on England, 1 loss away to Ireland, 7 wins

Italy 15 England 19, 11/02/2012, Charge down Charliehttps://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/21372581

Ireland 6 England 12, 10/02/2013, pens win it https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/21372581

Scotland 0 England 20, 08/02/2014, Scots at rock bottom https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/26075972

wales 16 England 21, 06/02/2015, Wales lose as favourites https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... nd-8597632

wales 16 England 21, 11/02/2017, England leave it late https://www.theguardian.com/sport/live/ ... tions-live

LOSS Ireland 13 England 9, 18/03/2017 O Mahony foils late England Lineout after succession of Garces England pens https://www.the42.ie/ireland-england-ma ... 3-Mar2017/

England 12 Wales 6, 10/02/2018, Wales robbed of a first half try https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... x-14273030

Ireland 20 England 32, England bring their A game better side, but blatant forward pass still missed (not checked) https://extra.ie/2019/02/02/sport/rugby ... rward-pass

Garces at the world cup, on England
England 25 Wales 28, 26/09/2015, late Davies try stuns England despite Jenkins being crucified by Garces in the scrum https://www.the42.ie/england-wales-matc ... 3-Sep2015/

Others
I haven’t looked at the autumn internationals or tour games in depth but I know England lost to NZ by a point with Garces reffing last year, and beat south Africa well in 2016 with him at the helm. https://www.autumn-internationals.co.uk ... frica.html

Henry G

Correction. 11 wins, two losses. 84% win rate for Garces and Sarries in the Heineken cup.

A swift fardy yellow, a non-existant offside line, a lead with the elbow, a forward pass ignored from farrell on the leinster 22, intercardinal directional lineout throwing only a problem for one team....
Well.

Garces and Saracens, what a journey! A symbiotic relationship if ever I've seen one.

Oh wait...I have seen one recently! Garces and England. Reffed England's two away wins in Ireland and two in Wales in the last 6 years. Joubert and NZ were pretty symbiotic on the biggest stage too come to think of it! NZ ran the refs panel at that stage didn't they? Then who was it passed to? Oh right. The RFU.

The way rugby refs are appointed in the ERC and internationally is beyond reproach and should not be looked it.

The lack of transparency means nothing. The biggest teams and international nations (Ireland included) should always have a say in who refs them, instead of the entire process being random and transparent. They should always be able to influence who refs their games. That's how it is supposed to be.

Nothing to see here. Move along. Lest you stand out for questioning the status quo.

Rugby is NOT a fundamentally bent sport at the highest levels....

[leinsterforever]

Some thoughts from the match:

- Surely someone has to go low on Vunipola to wrap up his legs? The instinct is to go high and target the ball so close to the line, but surely one of the four tacklers has to go low and take away his means of driving forward? Harsh criticism, as you're already fighting fires, as Eddie O'Sullivan says, if he gets a run off the back of the scrum. He's pretty hard to stop.

- Would Ross Byrne's cross kicks have made a difference? In hindsight, it was probably worth trying at any rate with 10 to go. Saracens were defending at the end as if they thought Leinster weren't going to try a kick.

- Would it be better to back Barry Daly as first-choice right wing? Larmour maybe looks like a higher level talent, but having a right winger who makes excellent defensive reads can be the difference in the big moments at the very highest level.

- I'm not too sure about Contepomi's coaching of the attack. Players take the ball without a whole lot of movement and they look to pass to where the space is. It's been found a bit wanting against Ulster and Saracens.

- It's reassuring to have Lancaster there. He knew what tweaks were needed after the semi final disappointments in 2017. He'll be analysing where Leinster need to get better and implementing whatever needs to be done.

[wixfjord]

It's getting a little repetitive now dude.

We didn't lose that game because of Garces.

[Oldschool]

Was Itoje illegal in the scrum or should what he was doing be made illegal.
He was basically pushing across the scrum instead of pushing straight.
It's illegal for the front row to do this but what about the BR.
Any thoughts?

[thepunter]

It's getting a little repetitive now dude.

We didn't lose that game because of Garces.

I genuinely agree. Leinster lost due to a combination of factors.

But it's little things....like Fardy yellowed immediately, yet it took 5/6 pens for saracens for a yellow to be called. Like Itoje leading with the elbow and nothing done. Like Saracens time and again going off their feet in the first half. The TMO had to call him in for Barritt.

I see Garces at this every game he refs them in. The little marginal decisions that turn games. They all add up. It is cumulative. And the stats back it they have added up for Saracens.

The more important fact is that referee appointments are not transparent, and teams influence who refs them.

It is disgraceful.

But nothing will be done. No pundit will tackle it. Because they will be sidelined if they do.

[deco]

- I'm not too sure about Contepomi's coaching of the attack. Players take the ball without a whole lot of movement and they look to pass to where the space is. It's been found a bit wanting against Ulster and Saracens.

This.

Also enough of blaming the ref. It's munsteresque and we're better than that.. Sarries won because they were better on the day.

[Logorrhea]

The more important fact is that referee appointments are not transparent, and teams influence who refs them.
It is disgraceful.
But nothing will be done. No pundit will tackle it. Because they will be sidelined if they do.

lol

[Oldschool]

It's getting a little repetitive now dude.

We didn't lose that game because of Garces.

I genuinely agree. Leinster lost due to a combination of factors.

But it's little things....like Fardy yellowed immediately, yet it took 5/6 pens for saracens for a yellow to be called. Like Itoje leading with the elbow and nothing done. Like Saracens time and again going off their feet in the first half. The TMO had to call him in for Barritt.

I see Garces at this every game he refs them in. The little marginal decisions that turn games. They all add up. It is cumulative. And the stats back it they have added up for Saracens.

The more important fact is that referee appointments are not transparent, and teams influence who refs them.

It is disgraceful.

But nothing will be done. No pundit will tackle it. Because they will be sidelined if they do.

Have to admire your effort in putting all the stuff re Garces together.
You may well have a point too but that's another discussion.
In another universe McGrath kicked the ball into touch to end the first half at 10-3 to us.
Just after HT SOB didn't lose possession near their line and we got a 3 pointer 13-3.
Treacy throws straight at his first lineout and McGrath decides not to tap and go.
BV gets a try and game ends 13-10.
BV still gets MOM.
Small margins.

[Twist]

I note a lot of magnanimity toward Saracens here. I can’t share it to be honest. I like McCall, I like Owen Farrell, they’ve a huge number of players I admire but their financial “idiosyncrasies” are a bit much for me. Everything they win comes with an asterisk because of that

[Icarus]

It's getting a little repetitive now dude.

We didn't lose that game because of Garces.

I genuinely agree. Leinster lost due to a combination of factors.

But it's little things....like Fardy yellowed immediately, yet it took 5/6 pens for saracens for a yellow to be called. Like Itoje leading with the elbow and nothing done. Like Saracens time and again going off their feet in the first half. The TMO had to call him in for Barritt.

I see Garces at this every game he refs them in. The little marginal decisions that turn games. They all add up. It is cumulative. And the stats back it they have added up for Saracens.

The more important fact is that referee appointments are not transparent, and teams influence who refs them.

It is disgraceful.

But nothing will be done. No pundit will tackle it. Because they will be sidelined if they do.

Have to admire your effort in putting all the stuff re Garces together.
You may well have a point too but that's another discussion.
In another universe McGrath kicked the ball into touch to end the first half at 10-3 to us.
Just after HT SOB didn't lose possession near their line and we got a 3 pointer 13-3.
Treacy throws straight at his first lineout and McGrath decides not to tap and go.
BV gets a try and game ends 13-10.
BV still gets MOM.
Small margins.

And in another universe Stockdale would have grounded the ball in the QF.

[OTT]

As gutted as I was with the result seeing the thousands of blue flags around the stadium and the team who were broken and empty paying their appreciation to the fans filled me with pride. Newcastle was a wonderful city, friendly people, great banter, so welcoming. This team have given me some of my best days, it’s a privilege being a Leinster fan and traveling with the blue army.

Sarries were immense and their fans were classy before the game and even more so after they won. They seem to take a lot of online abuse especially from other English teams but that might be jealousy because I didn’t meet one bad one.

Onwards and upwards.

[Sarrieseric]

Thanks for helping making it a wonderful weekend in Newcastle. Your support was immense and your team did you proud. Every Leinster supporter I talked to was a credit to you. Had a row of lads behind us in the Gallowgate End and we had great fun talking and winding each other up during the game, although their patience with Garces had run out long before the end!

[CiaranIrl]

As gutted as I was with the result seeing the thousands of blue flags around the stadium and the team who were broken and empty paying their appreciation to the fans filled me with pride. Newcastle was a wonderful city, friendly people, great banter, so welcoming. This team have given me some of my best days, it’s a privilege being a Leinster fan and traveling with the blue army.

Sarries were immense and their fans were classy before the game and even more so after they won. They seem to take a lot of online abuse especially from other English teams but that might be jealousy because I didn’t meet one bad one.

Onwards and upwards.

Yeah, totally agree with this. I had a fantastic weekend, despite the result. The only total bellend I met was a (Leinster fan) moron trying to start a fight in some bar nearby. He was with his parents, remarkably, and his mother was totally mortified by him.

[riocard911]

Just rewatched the match on rugbylist. They've got the rugbypass version with the Radio Carlow commentary with Leinster legend Mick Quinn as the resident expert. I thought it was very good. Okay not exactly "cosmopolitan" like Dallaglio and BO'D, but the "local" can be entertaining in its own way.

[Blueberry]

Absolutely gutted after getting back and keep replying moments in my head, god knows how the players feel !! What is so frustrating is we had them where we wanted and they slipped past us just before the half and we did blow a 7 pointer just after the break which would have been massive. Please lay off the refs, Garces has problems and weakpoints but we know them and have to adapt. Yes his performance needs review and we need to feedback as a team but let's not turn into a bitter bunch like the Munster brigade. So proud of our fans, the boys, the OLSC who were incredible, hairs still standing from the blue tsunami cheering the buses into the grounds, and everyone involved. It is a privilege and a honour to follow this team and it hurts like hell but we will be back and I will be there cheering them on. Back in the saddle on Saturday, winning the PRO 14 important now for HCUP seeding if nothing else !!

[Oldschool]

Have to admire your effort in putting all the stuff re Garces together.
You may well have a point too but that's another discussion.
In another universe McGrath kicked the ball into touch to end the first half at 10-3 to us.
Just after HT SOB didn't lose possession near their line and we got a 3 pointer 13-3.
Treacy throws straight at his first lineout and McGrath decides not to tap and go.
BV gets a try and game ends 13-10.
BV still gets MOM.
Small margins.

And in another universe Stockdale would have grounded the ball in the QF.

Yep, that's the universe one to the left of ours.
The one I was taking about is two to the right.
Small margins!

[Logorrhea]

their financial “idiosyncrasies” are a bit much for me. Everything they win comes with an asterisk because of that

Bullshit. We've never had a problem with the the likes of Clermont and Toulouse whos resources dwarf ours. Saracens dodgy financial dealings are screwing over the other teams in their league, they are nothing to do with us in Europe. Europe has never been a fair playing field whether it be the bigger budgets from some teams, or our ability to manage the playing time for our players.

[hugonaut]

I note a lot of magnanimity toward Saracens here. I can’t share it to be honest. I like McCall, I like Owen Farrell, they’ve a huge number of players I admire but their financial “idiosyncrasies” are a bit much for me. Everything they win comes with an asterisk because of that

No salary cap in the European Cup, as far as I'm aware. I know you can go backwards down the chain of events and point out that they have to qualify from their league, which has a salary cap, but I think that's looking for an excuse, given that their academy has produced a reasonable number of their own players and they have made good, efficient signings. They are closer to Clermont than Toulon in how they've developed as a team, in my opinion.