The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Five.

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Blueberry
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by Blueberry »

riocard911 wrote:Yeah, but the thing is, is that the plan initially worked. They took possession of the ball and our pack got it bàck by means of fabulous counterrucking. Ryan ploughs forward but unfortunately gets isolated and pinged on the ground for lack of support. From the subsequent line out deep in blue territory comes the try.
Yes good point this - easy to pillory Luke (who gave everything) but ultimately is was the brilliance of Sarries to get that turnover penalty that created the opportunity. Tiny tiny margins and big outcomes.

Perhaps ultimately missing Leavy and VDF was the 1% difference on Sat, our back row did lack a touch of pace and getting to the breakdown area a fraction of a second faster in 5-6 cases through that game could have changed things. Perhaps having Ruddock, Conan and Leavy starting with Fardy and VDF benching it would have different but that's rugby !!

Sarries are exceptional, we need to take heart from the fact that we are very very close.

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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by Twist »

Logorrhea wrote:
Twist wrote:their financial “idiosyncrasies” are a bit much for me. Everything they win comes with an asterisk because of that
Bullshit. We've never had a problem with the the likes of Clermont and Toulouse whos resources dwarf ours. Saracens dodgy financial dealings are screwing over the other teams in their league, they are nothing to do with us in Europe. Europe has never been a fair playing field whether it be the bigger budgets from some teams, or our ability to manage the playing time for our players.
That doesnt work as a defence at all. Taking your premise that theyve been guilty of dodgy financial dealings, would they be succesful without those dodgy dealings? Would they have the squad to play an attrition based game?

If your answer is yes, then it’s you who’s bullshitting


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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by Dave Cahill »

They've been accused of plenty - but found guilty of nothing as of yet.
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by arsebiscuits1 »

My take on the game.

I am disappointed to lose, but proud of the effort. Tbh it makes it a lot easier to take knowing we were very much second best.

There is an element of borderline relief that Garces played no real part. There was so much bigged up about him prior but by and large I thought he was calm and made most decisions correctly and was categorically in no way at fault for our loss. Even the most blue eyed fan can agree on that.

There was a tale of 2 players and their RWC chances that I saw today.

Luke McGrath was poor I thought and this was his window to cement himself as second choice this October. There was a stat that Sarries had something like 40 dominant tackles. An incredible stat. But Luke was directly responsible for many of these. The first receiver had to check their run too much and resulted in lost yards. He never seemed to get fully in sync with his pack.

I don't think it is a case that the offside line wasn't policed, Lukes passing was far too laboured and scrum halves like him who take a step before passing are always going to murder their outside players against a rush D.

I don't want to slate him too much as I think he's a tremendous player. But yesterday was a day to forget. Truth be told I think that was the exact type of game JGP would have thrived at.

On the topic of his box kick however... Using the football as a quick example. Alexander-Arnold took a quick corner against Barca when literally no one was looking. Not even the player who scored it. If he doesn't react, that ball goes nowhere and Barca clear. In this case he is a muppet for squandering a clear cut attacking corner with a totally pointless play. But he gets lucky and they score.

If we get a chaser there to beat Billy in the air, as all of our back 3 would be capable of, then we've the ball in their 22 having just had several minutes of dominance. That's a real chance to twist the knife.

These are the decisions that games of this nature swing on... remember Sextons drop in Paris? What if that didn't go over?

And onto the other player in my tale... Jack Conan.

No one will ever fill Jamies shoes, but my god is he trying. What an incredible season he has had so far. His carrying and defensive work is something we can really shape our game around.

A minor blip on the copybook was not pummeling Williams off the ball for his incredible turnover. I thought overall he was outstanding yesterday and indeed this season has been peerless.

I think the Leinster Munster rivalry clouds a lot of peoples judgement on who wears that green number 8 shirt and I try to look at it as objectively as possible. I really can't see how CJ keeps that shirt after Conans performances in the knock outs of this competition this season. I think he has to be starting 8 come October.

I am a sad man we didn't get that fifth star, but that effort cannot be faulted and Sarries performance must be lauded. How good a player is Owen Farrell btw?
He's gotten awfully fond of that brick

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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by cormac »

The real turning point was when Leo the Lion's head fell off during the half-time show.
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by Logorrhea »

Twist wrote:Taking your premise that theyve been guilty of dodgy financial dealings, would they be succesful without those dodgy dealings? Would they have the squad to play an attrition based game?
Of course not. Their success has been bought (that team without the likes of the Vunipola brothers and Skelton would be a lot easier to manage) but so has the success in France.

Then again, maybe you share the same dislike of French clubs as you do for Sarries. I was just objecting to the inconsistency of argument I've heard from some (not what you said directly) that states a dislike for Saracens financial power and admires everything about Clermont, Toulouse and the likes.

Anyhoo, no big deal.

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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by curates_egg »

I'm going to break my self-imposed posting exile to post a defence of Luke McGrath.

I haven't been a major fan (I think he's adequate but overrated by some Leinster fans) and don't think he was great at all on Saturday BUT it is totally unfair to blame him for not putting the ball out before halftime.
That was an atrocious decision, but it was Sexton that made it.
I was sitting not that far away, and I could see Sexton yelling the instruction to McGrath. I couldn't believe it at the time, and everything played out in slow motion after that, but it is nowhere near all on McGrath.
Reading through the lines of Sexton's post-match comments, he is owning the decision as well; albeit, he is not owning it as a mistake (which it definitely was against Sarries).
Also, the Ringrose utter butchery of that 5 on 2 was almost as bad, in terms of decision-making mistakes...only mitigated by the excellent Sarries defence having probably put so much doubt in his mind as to what to do.

So long.
Last edited by curates_egg on May 13th, 2019, 1:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by FLIP »

cormac wrote:The real turning point was when Leo the Lion's head fell off during the half-time show.
It may have been the turning point but the nail in the coffin was when my mate came back from the loo, and kicked over the second half beer supplies I had lugged back to the seats.

The Heineken gods did not look favourably upon us after we split their nectar.
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

I'm warming to Saracens after seeing that Alex Goode was on the piss in full kit yesterday, boots and all :lol:

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Twist
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by Twist »

Logorrhea wrote:
Twist wrote:Taking your premise that theyve been guilty of dodgy financial dealings, would they be succesful without those dodgy dealings? Would they have the squad to play an attrition based game?
Of course not. Their success has been bought (that team without the likes of the Vunipola brothers and Skelton would be a lot easier to manage) but so has the success in France.

Then again, maybe you share the same dislike of French clubs as you do for Sarries. I was just objecting to the inconsistency of argument I've heard from some (not what you said directly) that states a dislike for Saracens financial power and admires everything about Clermont, Toulouse and the likes.

Anyhoo, no big deal.
You should've heard me when Toulon were winning.....

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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by TrapperChamonix »

Toulouse's hegemony over decades was built on outspending their French rivals. Yet we revere them.

Whether Saracens out spend the English salary cap is neither here nor there in relation to a European competition that has NO salary cap.

In the past they relied heavily on imported players but more recently they have one of the best track records for developing young English players. I doubt you find a better model than them in England (https://www.saracens.com/academy/pathway). Yes, I'm sure they operate at a loss, but so do many of the Irish Provinces, Welsh & Scottish teams. We may not particularly like Nigel Wray but there is much more to admire and like in the Saracens club than him.
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by Dave Sarries »

Hope you don't mind a Sarries fan joining you!!

That was a superb weekend. Two fantastic teams. It was sad that one had to lose. The atmosphere was brilliant inside and outside the ground. I felt privileged to be there.

Much talk of us being a bought team. Several years ago I would have agreed. But not now. Vunipola's? Came to us a few years ago and developed by our coaches into the players they are now. Liam W and Sean Maitland - yes, bought in. Will Skelton? Who had heard of him 2 years ago. I could go on but don't want to bore you more than I'm probably doing!

There was virtually nothing between us. On another day you guys would have won. it was that close in my view.

Thank you Leinster, the Club and fans, for making the weekend as fantastic as it was. It will stay with me for ever.

See you in marseilles (draw permitting!!)

Best wishes for the rest of the season.

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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by Oldschool »

As the dust settles we are left combing through the ashes.
Luke McGrath made a mistake that could have been the match defining moment.
Immediate reaction, that's his RWC chances in flitters.
However some time later it's worth considering that it's moments like that, that give a player the experience not to make that mistake or mistakes like it again.
Luke is a better player today than he was on Friday, as are others playing at this level for the first or second time.
That was an international in all but name and a competition international at that.
Leinster face a season of transition, not because of a lack of talent but because of a lack of experience.
The Nordies, SOBs Leavys, Jack McGraths, perhaps Rob and a Sexton in decline cannot be easily replaced, simply because of the well of experience they possess.
Leinster have already started on the path of building experience this season because we had the home semi final sown up so early.
The transition will be all the shorter for that.
The game on Saturday may have been a a nett loss but there are a lot of positives too.
C'mon Leinster.
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Blueberry
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by Blueberry »

Dave Sarries wrote:Hope you don't mind a Sarries fan joining you!!

That was a superb weekend. Two fantastic teams. It was sad that one had to lose. The atmosphere was brilliant inside and outside the ground. I felt privileged to be there.

Much talk of us being a bought team. Several years ago I would have agreed. But not now. Vunipola's? Came to us a few years ago and developed by our coaches into the players they are now. Liam W and Sean Maitland - yes, bought in. Will Skelton? Who had heard of him 2 years ago. I could go on but don't want to bore you more than I'm probably doing!

There was virtually nothing between us. On another day you guys would have won. it was that close in my view.

Thank you Leinster, the Club and fans, for making the weekend as fantastic as it was. It will stay with me for ever.

See you in marseilles (draw permitting!!)

Best wishes for the rest of the season.

Thanks mate, super game, test match quality and an enthralling contest. Sarries were a nose ahead of us and well done, an awesome team. Every chance we could be crossing paths again in Marseille. We just need to find you a few more fans so you're not totally out numbered again by the blue army !! :D Already wondering when the HCUP draw for season is ? Bring it on !! See u next year !!

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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by backrower8 »

Saracens are currently superior to us in terms of raw power and most of all the effectiveness of their defensive system.

We have a major programme of renewing our squad in the next two years when I think k it is safe to say we will see the last of Cian, Cronin, Dev, Johnny, Fards and Rob as well as Seánie and Jack. I know we have lots of talent coming through but we don’t have like-for-like replacements in our ranks other than at wing forward.

If we are to compete with Sarries in particular we need power athletes up front and a new defensive system.

Questions have to be asked about the number of games our A-team get to play together. 2 games since the 6N is not enough for them to be as cohesive as they need to be.

Our pack delivered on Saturday but our backs did not.

Luke’s box-kick was not as bad a decision as either Ringer’s or Larmour’s - who had more to do with the try than Luke because of him giving Maitland a free run to the line. He does this repeatedly.

Garces, who had a good game, was duped into giving the penalty when Vunipola pinned Rob and made no effort to feed the ball back when he could have. Jamie George appealed to Garces and hey presto. The touch judge said nothing.

In saying that Garces had a good games, I mean that in terms of what we have come to expect/fear from referees. We expected very little of Garces after the semi. He was better than that, but he and his officials missed a lot and made odd decisions.

Liam Williams turned Ringer over illegally. A Sarries crooked lineout was allowed and Williams dropped the ball in an aerial with Rob Kearney. Fardy seemed to get carded for 1 transgression whereas Sarries were cited for transgressions. Sarries gave away 10 and could have given at least 4 more. They went looking for penalties from Garces at every turn. He was bound to award I e or two. They are so cynical. And are allowed to be so.

We all see the transgressions on both sides yet 4 officials ignore 10+ in every game. Why is that? My suspicion is that the powers that be want penalties kept to a minimum in order to make the “product” as attractive as possible and therefore teams know they can ‘game’ the whole match because referees won’t apply every law all of the time.

It is less and less about the rugby and more about playing referees and developing systems that usurp the essence of the game. Leinster are part of this brave new rugby world. I preferred the 2011 & 2012 Leinster and the Clermont and Toulouse of today.

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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by Ruckedtobits »

arsebiscuits1 wrote:My take on the game.

I am disappointed to lose, but proud of the effort. Tbh it makes it a lot easier to take knowing we were very much second best.

There is an element of borderline relief that Garces played no real part. There was so much bigged up about him prior but by and large I thought he was calm and made most decisions correctly and was categorically in no way at fault for our loss. Even the most blue eyed fan can agree on that.

There was a tale of 2 players and their RWC chances that I saw today.

Luke McGrath was poor I thought and this was his window to cement himself as second choice this October. There was a stat that Sarries had something like 40 dominant tackles. An incredible stat. But Luke was directly responsible for many of these. The first receiver had to check their run too much and resulted in lost yards. He never seemed to get fully in sync with his pack.

I don't think it is a case that the offside line wasn't policed, Lukes passing was far too laboured and scrum halves like him who take a step before passing are always going to murder their outside players against a rush D.

I don't want to slate him too much as I think he's a tremendous player. But yesterday was a day to forget. Truth be told I think that was the exact type of game JGP would have thrived at.

On the topic of his box kick however... Using the football as a quick example. Alexander-Arnold took a quick corner against Barca when literally no one was looking. Not even the player who scored it. If he doesn't react, that ball goes nowhere and Barca clear. In this case he is a muppet for squandering a clear cut attacking corner with a totally pointless play. But he gets lucky and they score.

If we get a chaser there to beat Billy in the air, as all of our back 3 would be capable of, then we've the ball in their 22 having just had several minutes of dominance. That's a real chance to twist the knife.

These are the decisions that games of this nature swing on... remember Sextons drop in Paris? What if that didn't go over?

And onto the other player in my tale... Jack Conan.

No one will ever fill Jamies shoes, but my god is he trying. What an incredible season he has had so far. His carrying and defensive work is something we can really shape our game around.

A minor blip on the copybook was not pummeling Williams off the ball for his incredible turnover. I thought overall he was outstanding yesterday and indeed this season has been peerless.

I think the Leinster Munster rivalry clouds a lot of peoples judgement on who wears that green number 8 shirt and I try to look at it as objectively as possible. I really can't see how CJ keeps that shirt after Conans performances in the knock outs of this competition this season. I think he has to be starting 8 come October.

I am a sad man we didn't get that fifth star, but that effort cannot be faulted and Sarries performance must be lauded. How good a player is Owen Farrell btw?
+1.
Very little disagreement with that excellent summary.

I cannot yet bring myself to watch and analyse it yet. However, my overall sence of the game in real time now summarised as follow:

A. Sarries defensive line-speed, and power in the tackle, was awesome;
B. Sarries seemed to attack in waves with excellent, out front passing & at pace;
C. Leinster got minimal line breaks & never chipped / grubbered for the space behind:
D. Sarries were very confident in their set-pieces & maul; Leinster less so in the maul.

A really tough contest, but not really close in the final conclusion. Leinster (and Ireland) were magnificent in 2018 in the "Championship Minutes". Sarries (and England) stole our crown this year.

We'll be back, but it will be a slightly different model!

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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by tomthefan »

deco wrote:
leinsterforever wrote:
- I'm not too sure about Contepomi's coaching of the attack. Players take the ball without a whole lot of movement and they look to pass to where the space is. It's been found a bit wanting against Ulster and Saracens.
This.

Also enough of blaming the ref. It's munsteresque and we're better than that.. Sarries won because they were better on the day.
Hope you feel better soon Deco. :twisted:
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by blockhead »

TBH cant really have any complaints. Sarries were the better team on the day. No doubt about it. Weeird feeling, losing a european final. But there is always next year.
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by ronk »

Dave Sarries wrote:Hope you don't mind a Sarries fan joining you!!

That was a superb weekend. Two fantastic teams. It was sad that one had to lose. The atmosphere was brilliant inside and outside the ground. I felt privileged to be there.

Much talk of us being a bought team. Several years ago I would have agreed. But not now. Vunipola's? Came to us a few years ago and developed by our coaches into the players they are now. Liam W and Sean Maitland - yes, bought in. Will Skelton? Who had heard of him 2 years ago. I could go on but don't want to bore you more than I'm probably doing!

There was virtually nothing between us. On another day you guys would have won. it was that close in my view.

Thank you Leinster, the Club and fans, for making the weekend as fantastic as it was. It will stay with me for ever.

See you in marseilles (draw permitting!!)

Best wishes for the rest of the season.
The Vunipolas were really good young players but we're developed well. Skelton already had 18 caps but he has improved, so was hardly unknown.

Farrell, George, Kruis and Itoge are the sort of academy graduates that any team would be happy with. The bought mercenaries trope doesn't pass examination.

Either way, you played good rugby and had to earn that win. We lost that final because you were the best team we've faced in one. Thought it was a cracking game.

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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by olaf the fat »

There was a set of stats before the game comparing both clubs (on twitter i think, maybe from lequip - but cant find it now)

The issue it highlighted was that the starters in Saracens had played a lot more minutes of Rugby than the Leinster starters.

The other thing that jumped out was the both clubs make up. Across the club, Sarries were approx 1/3 overseas imports 1/3 English imports and 1/3 Academy developed - I was surprised by that, actually seems well balanced for a top big money team - kind of contrary to what we are lead to believe about Saracens. Leinster on the other hand, looked about 80%* academy developed. In fairness, that's just our system and caps off to Leinster Rugby for that.

On the bigger picture & the call for us to bring in new "top level" players because of how the final went - our system has gotten us to 5 finals in 10 years - winning 4, that's a good measure of success. Last year we did ok against Saracens, which were very similar teams to this year. Why the calls to rip up our system after losing 1 final, but consistently preforming at the top of European rugby over 10 years?

Appreciate it for the great match up it was.

*Stats were in bar format not actual % - so rough description from memory and open to error.
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