The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Five.

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FLIP
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by FLIP »

olaf the fat wrote:On the bigger picture & the call for us to bring in new "top level" players because of how the final went - our system has gotten us to 5 finals in 10 years - winning 4, that's a good measure of success. Last year we did ok against Saracens, which were very similar teams to this year. Why the calls to rip up our system after losing 1 final, but consistently preforming at the top of European rugby over 10 years?
Were Rocky, Hines, and Thorn not big name signings? I would suggest that having 1 big name in our mix is within our system.
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by backrower8 »

All the talk by some re Luke’s box-kick is overdone. It indirectly led to a try after several other factors: Sarries blocking our chasers; milking a penalty (they did that systematically all day and Garces actively resisted most of the time but was duped here. Billy could have played the ball back easy). Most of all Larmour leaving Maitland for a free run in. Larmour contributed directly to the try, as did Ringer not passing to a massive overlap later on. Direct-v-Indirect. Luke’s decision is a hindsight thing. Larmour & Ringer’s were unequivocally wrong decisions at the time as they both led to and denied certain tries. A 14 point swing by our own hands.

I have more of an issue with how Luke’s passing often put the receiver at a disadvantage due to being too high. McCarthy’s pass is the sweetest I have seen in Leinster colours. Luke did snipe and tackle well but passing is the key.

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olaf the fat
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by olaf the fat »

FLIP wrote:
olaf the fat wrote:On the bigger picture & the call for us to bring in new "top level" players because of how the final went - our system has gotten us to 5 finals in 10 years - winning 4, that's a good measure of success. Last year we did ok against Saracens, which were very similar teams to this year. Why the calls to rip up our system after losing 1 final, but consistently preforming at the top of European rugby over 10 years?
Were Rocky, Hines, and Thorn not big name signings? I would suggest that having 1 big name in our mix is within our system.
It is, hence the 80% approx across the club & much less on first team selection. This time its Fardy & Lowe, Henshaw and Nuggett as starters, (KPMG & Tomane & Bent)so we already have our 2 overseas marquee players and a few back ups with a couple of Irish imports. Which was enough to get to the final this year and last. Do we need more at the expense of academy developed palyers?

Jaysis, I 'm starting to sound like Gemma O'Doherty!

What I'm thinking is that our system is working - no need for panic change due to 1 defeat.
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by enby »

Looking last week at a replay of the 09 semi in Croker reminded me of how vital the unfashionable drop goal can be to winning a knockout game. I know the game has moved on in 10 years but I felt that after Fardy was carded and we got back up into their half, running a dg routine was the percentage play. It was unlikely that we were going to get a try against their defence when down a player and running the yellow card clock down, whilst attractive, is not a preferable option to 3 points. It seems to be the modern view that taking a drop outside of the end game is tantamount to waving a white flag and is an admission that the opponent's defence is on top but I believe that a successful drop goal at that stage of the match would have been a momentum stopper.

Farrell was very clever in how he used every last second to take his kick for their first 3 points and then how he took hardly any time for his 2 kicks, albeit much easier ones, while Fardy was in the bin. It showed great awareness on his part. His restarts were a lot better than Jonny's.

Anyway nobody better than Leo and Lancaster to learn and apply the lessons from what happened on Saturday and we will be stronger for the experience. Saracens used their defeat to us in the QF last year to inspire them to their win. We can do something similar next season

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Blue not red blood
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by Blue not red blood »

So on mature and sober recollection, my thoughts.

The pre match predictions and analysis were all pretty much spot on. I personally felt that we would require a moment of magic to win it.
Had we scored the try and converted at start of second half it was a whole new scenario. 17-10 even if they get the extra 10 then it 20-17 with 10 minute to go. The whole dynamic and athmosphere changes.
Once it went 20-10 I think everyone knew it was curtains.

The effort of the squad was brave and honest and nobody can be critical of them.

In a game of inches and tight calls it just didnt come our way sadly. On another day !!!!

We should also recall moments that went our way on 3 of our previous wins,

2009 - Johnnys kick to win it, it scuttered over
2011 - Jamies blocking for our second try. In todays world that could easily have been called back.
2018 - The stupid penalty Racing gave away in our 22 with 3 minutes left and after we lose the throw they cough it back up, resulting in Isa kicking the winner.

We were so close to the promised land and the 5th star.
Keep the faith and lets hear it for our team on Saturday
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by hugonaut »

enby wrote:Looking last week at a replay of the 09 semi in Croker reminded me of how vital the unfashionable drop goal can be to winning a knockout game. I know the game has moved on in 10 years but I felt that after Fardy was carded and we got back up into their half, running a dg routine was the percentage play. It was unlikely that we were going to get a try against their defence when down a player and running the yellow card clock down, whilst attractive, is not a preferable option to 3 points. It seems to be the modern view that taking a drop outside of the end game is tantamount to waving a white flag and is an admission that the opponent's defence is on top but I believe that a successful drop goal at that stage of the match would have been a momentum stopper.
Agreed. Unfashionable at the moment but due for a comeback. Points win prizes.

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the spoofer
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by the spoofer »

hugonaut wrote:
enby wrote:Looking last week at a replay of the 09 semi in Croker reminded me of how vital the unfashionable drop goal can be to winning a knockout game. I know the game has moved on in 10 years but I felt that after Fardy was carded and we got back up into their half, running a dg routine was the percentage play. It was unlikely that we were going to get a try against their defence when down a player and running the yellow card clock down, whilst attractive, is not a preferable option to 3 points. It seems to be the modern view that taking a drop outside of the end game is tantamount to waving a white flag and is an admission that the opponent's defence is on top but I believe that a successful drop goal at that stage of the match would have been a momentum stopper.
Agreed. Unfashionable at the moment but due for a comeback. Points win prizes.
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

was at the game in newcastle....cracking city for a final. have to say the second half from sarries was something else. we fluffed a few chances but no shame losing to that squad. if they don't get pinged for the salary cap shenanigans it might be the same again next year. was gutted at losing but in fairness to saracens they played the second half as if their lives depended on it. well done them.

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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by Xanthippe »

olaf the fat wrote:There was a set of stats before the game comparing both clubs (on twitter i think, maybe from lequip - but cant find it now)

The issue it highlighted was that the starters in Saracens had played a lot more minutes of Rugby than the Leinster starters.

The other thing that jumped out was the both clubs make up. Across the club, Sarries were approx 1/3 overseas imports 1/3 English imports and 1/3 Academy developed - I was surprised by that, actually seems well balanced for a top big money team - kind of contrary to what we are lead to believe about Saracens. Leinster on the other hand, looked about 80%* academy developed. In fairness, that's just our system and caps off to Leinster Rugby for that.

On the bigger picture & the call for us to bring in new "top level" players because of how the final went - our system has gotten us to 5 finals in 10 years - winning 4, that's a good measure of success. Last year we did ok against Saracens, which were very similar teams to this year. Why the calls to rip up our system after losing 1 final, but consistently preforming at the top of European rugby over 10 years?

Appreciate it for the great match up it was.

*Stats were in bar format not actual % - so rough description from memory and open to error.

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olaf the fat
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by olaf the fat »

:happy clapper: Thats the one - fair play
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by ronk »

The best stuff is in the small print. Total minutes played is a huge difference. We also had more caps with a younger age profile and an inexperienced bench.

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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by Edna Kenny »

Are there stats available from last year in terms of minutes played?

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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Allowing for the playing conditions, dry ball, temperature in high 20's and including the high class performance of the referee, yesterday's Premiership Final had a lot of learnings for us looking at next Season. I have never been more impressed by Saracens that in their win against Exeter and will now concede that they are, currently, the best team in Europe.

Some of the work-ons that Leinster can glean from that game, combined with what we have already learned from our day in Newcastle, were:

* Jack Nowell gave a demonstration as to how Jordan Larmour could develop as a genuine attacking full-back of the highest standard. I thought it really interesting that Sarries never targeted him with high kicks, possibly because of the threat he poses in possession;

* The power of Sarries maul is an intrinsic part of how they exercise attacking pressure. The sheer size of their back five forwards is only part of their threat and they combine that with clever manipulation of the opposition to create the opportunity for part of their maul to "displace" the defence of their opponents. Skelton & Kruise did this for first try.

* Exeter created a number of line-breaks by aggressive carrying by their back-row combining with their centres. On a number of occasions, the offload from the backrow was almost 'in the tackle' but was given to a centre, either Slade or Devoto, coming at real pace. We haven't used such combinations but Conan, Rhys or Josh could develop the leg power in their carries to allow them combine in the same way with Robbie H and Ringer;

* The Sarries scrum, even with substitute Props, is largely used as a launch pad, not a power-unit, to exert tactical pressure. They use their scrum control to displace the defending back-row from the area that Vunipola wants to attack - either left or right from the scrum. The effect of that control, coupled with the opposition back-line having to be 5m back, creates real attacking opportunities, which are very hard to close down;

* Sarries line-outs, and particularly their middle and back throws, are very effective and create big mid-field attacking options. When opponents have to deal with the possible impact of their line-out maul, or a throw to the tail of the line-out, there is an almost inevitable concession of 15 - 20m to the Sarries mid-field carriers, even if they don't break the defensive line.

Throughout the Premiership final, I was impressed by the speed of arrival and delivery by Nic White at scrum-half for Exeter. These elements much be improved by Leinster if we hope to compete with Sarries next Season.

Overall, Exeter's performance was superb yesterday, but they ran out of players and energy at about 65 minutes, which is the final work-on. Beating Sarries requires size and extraordinary fitness and the ability to play very high tempo, very accurate, quality rugby for about 90 minutes. We can work hard on the latter but we must increasingly find the former. Jack Dunne can't be trained to Dev's or Kruise's level of experience, but that's part of what must be worked on.

Do that and we could sneak a win.

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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

I thought the biggest difference between us and Exeter was their bravery in terms of passing. We played into their hands whereas Exeter hit the space superbly. It helped that Saracens were a bit off though, they made way more mistakes than they did against us and they weren't all caused by pressure.

The Williams try knocked the stuffing out of them and they seemed to lose their heads and also wilted physically. Hogg could turn that lead into an unassailable one next season but they still need more impact off the bench and more of a plan b. The problem with holding onto the ball and keeping it in play was that they tired themselves out as much as it tired Saracens.

Saracens weren't even that good by their standards. Loads of errors, Farrell was poor off the tee and fairly anonymous as a ten, Rhodes made mistakes, Vunipola was very quiet...and yet they found a way to pick themselves up and steamroll Exeter in the last quarter.

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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by Oldschool »

Ruckedtobits wrote:Allowing for the playing conditions, dry ball, temperature in high 20's and including the high class performance of the referee, yesterday's Premiership Final had a lot of learnings for us looking at next Season. I have never been more impressed by Saracens that in their win against Exeter and will now concede that they are, currently, the best team in Europe.

Some of the work-ons that Leinster can glean from that game, combined with what we have already learned from our day in Newcastle, were:

* Jack Nowell gave a demonstration as to how Jordan Larmour could develop as a genuine attacking full-back of the highest standard. I thought it really interesting that Sarries never targeted him with high kicks, possibly because of the threat he poses in possession;

* The power of Sarries maul is an intrinsic part of how they exercise attacking pressure. The sheer size of their back five forwards is only part of their threat and they combine that with clever manipulation of the opposition to create the opportunity for part of their maul to "displace" the defence of their opponents. Skelton & Kruise did this for first try.

* Exeter created a number of line-breaks by aggressive carrying by their back-row combining with their centres. On a number of occasions, the offload from the backrow was almost 'in the tackle' but was given to a centre, either Slade or Devoto, coming at real pace. We haven't used such combinations but Conan, Rhys or Josh could develop the leg power in their carries to allow them combine in the same way with Robbie H and Ringer;

* The Sarries scrum, even with substitute Props, is largely used as a launch pad, not a power-unit, to exert tactical pressure. They use their scrum control to displace the defending back-row from the area that Vunipola wants to attack - either left or right from the scrum. The effect of that control, coupled with the opposition back-line having to be 5m back, creates real attacking opportunities, which are very hard to close down;

* Sarries line-outs, and particularly their middle and back throws, are very effective and create big mid-field attacking options. When opponents have to deal with the possible impact of their line-out maul, or a throw to the tail of the line-out, there is an almost inevitable concession of 15 - 20m to the Sarries mid-field carriers, even if they don't break the defensive line.

Throughout the Premiership final, I was impressed by the speed of arrival and delivery by Nic White at scrum-half for Exeter. These elements much be improved by Leinster if we hope to compete with Sarries next Season.

Overall, Exeter's performance was superb yesterday, but they ran out of players and energy at about 65 minutes, which is the final work-on. Beating Sarries requires size and extraordinary fitness and the ability to play very high tempo, very accurate, quality rugby for about 90 minutes. We can work hard on the latter but we must increasingly find the former. Jack Dunne can't be trained to Dev's or Kruise's level of experience, but that's part of what must be worked on.

Do that and we could sneak a win.
Very interesting post but it is only one side of the coin.
If Sarries hope to compete with us next season then they will need to improve too.
However everything you say is valid.
One thing more than anything else I'd like to see us do is have our receivers coming on to the ball at pace.
Edinburgh did this to Munster to great effect.
BTW I'm not going to tell Sarries what they need to improve, why would I?
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by curates_egg »

Does Sarries cheating and sanction mean we actually won?

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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by blockhead »

curates_egg wrote:Does Sarries cheating and sanction mean we actually won?
:lol: More pre-meditated than the hand of Back.
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by Twist »

curates_egg wrote:Does Sarries cheating and sanction mean we actually won?
Big pressure on now for the 3 in a row.

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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by tingman »

This is amazing - 35 points deduction and STG 5M fine. The follow on questions have to be how much are they over the cap and what
is expected of them in terms of regularising the situation - one wonders if this means player departures?

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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Post by Logorrhea »

curates_egg wrote:Does Sarries cheating and sanction mean we actually won?
There is no salary cap for any teams in the HEC so no cheating. They won it fair and square.

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