Champions Cup 2020

[blaker]

Revamp under discussion

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... ssion=true

[blockhead]

47 points scored by Leinster guys for other teams this weekend in the Heino
-Delahunt and Copeland got the late tries for Connachts amazing comeback win
-Cooney bagged 2 tries and kicked 9 pts while O'Toole also got a try, making up 24 of Ulsters 34 pts bp win
-Keatley kicked 8pts in Benetton's win over Lyon
-MacGinty kicked 5pts for Sale today

You may be mixing up your Ulster props. O'Sullivan is from Terenure. While O'Toole was born in Leinster he learned all his Rugby in Australia and Ulster. I think he left Leinster when he was 5 or 6

O'Toole was born in Drogheda, that'll do me.
As for MacGinty, born in Dublin and went to Blackrock! Ye dont get more Leinster than that, fup Michaels.
You wanna make your own list off ye go.
Blockhead don't make no mistakes.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

Revamp under discussion

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... ssion=true

home and away semi finals are a good idea imho.

[johng]

47 points scored by Leinster guys for other teams this weekend in the Heino
-Delahunt and Copeland got the late tries for Connachts amazing comeback win
-Cooney bagged 2 tries and kicked 9 pts while O'Toole also got a try, making up 24 of Ulsters 34 pts bp win
-Keatley kicked 8pts in Benetton's win over Lyon
-MacGinty kicked 5pts for Sale today

You may be mixing up your Ulster props. O'Sullivan is from Terenure. While O'Toole was born in Leinster he learned all his Rugby in Australia and Ulster. I think he left Leinster when he was 5 or 6

O'Toole was born in Drogheda, that'll do me.
As for MacGinty, born in Dublin and went to Blackrock! Ye dont get more Leinster than that, fup Michaels.
You wanna make your own list off ye go.
Blockhead don't make no mistakes.

I said nowt about Adge. Grown in that great rugby nursery where his aullad was/is headmaster. O'Toole however......

[Twist]

Our obligation to the rest of the Celtic Nations ended when they didn't vote for us to host RWC2023. The RFU did vote for us. So, basically, f%~k 'em

Couldnt agree more with this.

[Dexter]

Revamp under discussion

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... ssion=true

home and away semi finals are a good idea imho.

I'm not sure on that one. 18 teams with 6 groups of 3 sounds sh1te to me though.

[ronk]

Our obligation to the rest of the Celtic Nations ended when they didn't vote for us to host RWC2023. The RFU did vote for us. So, basically, f%~k 'em

Couldnt agree more with this.

Regardless of any absence of goodwill, we still need opposition at Pro14 level and to protect the 6N. No point screwing ourselves.

[ronk]

Revamp under discussion

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... ssion=true

home and away semi finals are a good idea imho.

Not necessary to change the rest of the tournament though.

Points difference becomes critical. Soccer works because of away goals. Rugby is a harder sell.

Group stages are a bit wasted with only 3 teams. Your season is over in 4 games (2 home). You need seedings to stop Racing/Toulon, Saracens and Leinster in a group. Then it becomes harder to qualify so teams give up earlier.

Runner up places become more of a lottery because of unbalanced groups.

Putting more teams in the Challenge Cup does nothing for it but it weakens the Heineken Cup. Less teams have a shot at having a good year.

Qualification has focused the mind a little in the Pro14 but done nothing to stop teams backing off once they are out. The leagues solved this problem with a play-off. A mid season playoff keeps almost everyone interested and means that more/all group winners get home knockout matches.

Go back to 6 groups of 4. Top 4 get home QF. Other 2 group winners and 2 best runner ups get home wildcards again the 4 next best. 4 games for 8 teams in 1 extra week. Probably not that many internationals involved because the top 4 teams are usually stacked. Force them to rest 6N internationals in the league due to the extra game.

[leinsterforever]

What the PRL don't seem to get is that changing the competition isn't going to affect the Irish teams in the long run because the Union-led model makes them adaptable. Leinster can adapt to change and still be extremely competitive. Most Premiership teams are like a guy in the gym who's good at one particular lift, but when they're asked to mix it up they struggle. It's quite stark over recent seasons how they can't seem to dial up their performance levels to match Irish sides raising their game.

Maybe they should release internationals to represent their countries more instead of fining clubs for doing so and then they'd get the boost from players coming back in having been up at the higher level. They seem quite one-paced. And they're so stuck in the belief that their way of operating has to be the best and everyone else should change to suit them.

[paddyor]

It's only 3 years ago they had 5 teams in the QFs and 3 in the SFs........

I think it's clear there's been a drop off in the quality of the GP sides. Of the 5 sides who made the QFs in 2016, 3(Tigers, Wasps & Saints) of them have bombed in the last few years and look a long way off challenging. Of those I'd say Wasps seem to have fallen hardest (given they were challenging for a league title in 2016?). Turns out spunking 1.2m on Kurtley Beale is not the answer. Which is quite funny how often we were reassured by the money men that the fanswanted the biggest names playing in games that mattered and that's what would drive growth! They've since been reduced to a CVC "bailout" for their mostly loss making ventures.

Some of it's cyclical, squads get old, there's more player turnover in the GP, it's harder to break in young players etc, but it does seem like the extra cash and Cap increase has f*cked the squad make up of a lot of teams. In fact the extra cash has probably exacerabted squad turnover and further limited opportunities for young players(in that it creates a more darwinian enviroment where you don't want to oppen the door to a rival). Ian Madigan wouldn't earn 500k pa in Ireland. Ben T'eo wouldn't be getting close to 800k for club and country in Ireland either. I don't see how you fix the problems of the GP by tinkering with Europe.

[riocard911]

It's only 3 years ago they had 5 teams in the QFs and 3 in the SFs........

I think it's clear there's been a drop off in the quality of the GP sides. Of the 5 sides who made the QFs in 2016, 3(Tigers, Wasps & Saints) of them have bombed in the last few years and look a long way off challenging. Of those I'd say Wasps seem to have fallen hardest (given they were challenging for a league title in 2016?). Turns out spunking 1.2m on Kurtley Beale is not the answer. Which is quite funny how often we were reassured by the money men that the fanswanted the biggest names playing in games that mattered and that's what would drive growth! They've since been reduced to a CVC "bailout" for their mostly loss making ventures.

Some of it's cyclical, squads get old, there's more player turnover in the GP, it's harder to break in young players etc, but it does seem like the extra cash and Cap increase has f*cked the squad make up of a lot of teams. In fact the extra cash has probably exacerabted squad turnover and further limited opportunities for young players(in that it creates a more darwinian enviroment where you don't want to oppen the door to a rival). Ian Madigan wouldn't earn 500k pa in Ireland. Ben T'eo wouldn't be getting close to 800k for club and country in Ireland either. I don't see how you fix the problems of the GP by tinkering with Europe.

Certainly the thrashing we gave Wasps and their new star Lima Sopoaga in the opening round of last season's HCC seems to have burst their bubble big time and may even have contributed to Elliot Daly soon thereafter seeking pastures greener - and artificial - in Allianz Park....

[leinsterforever]

Given that they have players like Owen Franks, Lawes, Reinach, Bigger and Proctor in their set up, I was a bit surprised at the soundbites coming out of the Saints camp suggesting they were struggling to get to grips with the step up in level. I suppose it goes to show that having a high number of *current* internationals is the best way to be able to ramp up the intensity when necessary. That's what Saracens and Leinster have. If you have former internationals, it seems it's quite likely they'll settle at the 'steady' level of the Premiership. England having 12 clubs to Ireland's 4 means the spread of current internationals is likely to be thinner.

If that hypothesis is correct, it suggests you should make room for the international game, as happens in Ireland. The PRL want to have their cake an eat it, wanting to grow their brand by buying up internationals, when that very action means that they'll no longer be as good if all they're playing is the slog of the Premiership week-in, week-out. Plus, their attitude to the international game over player release and Lions tours threatens the very structure they rely on to have these 'stars'.

[Ruckedtobits]

Given that they have players like Owen Franks, Lawes, Reinach, Bigger and Proctor in their set up, I was a bit surprised at the soundbites coming out of the Saints camp suggesting they were struggling to get to grips with the step up in level. I suppose it goes to show that having a high number of *current* internationals is the best way to be able to ramp up the intensity when necessary. That's what Saracens and Leinster have. If you have former internationals, it seems it's quite likely they'll settle at the 'steady' level of the Premiership. England having 12 clubs to Ireland's 4 means the spread of current internationals is likely to be thinner.

If that hypothesis is correct, it suggests you should make room for the international game, as happens in Ireland. The PRL want to have their cake an eat it, wanting to grow their brand by buying up internationals, when that very action means that they'll no longer be as good if all they're playing is the slog of the Premiership week-in, week-out. Plus, their attitude to the international game over player release and Lions tours threatens the very structure they rely on to have these 'stars'.

Ireland has less than 20% of the number of adult male players in England in rugby union. England have more than 131,000 whilst Ireland have just over 25,000. We field 4 highly competent professional teams and England field 12, 8 of questionable quality in European competition.

Maybe PRL need to look seriously at their development pathways if that's the best they can do.

[Keith]

Given that they have players like Owen Franks, Lawes, Reinach, Bigger and Proctor in their set up, I was a bit surprised at the soundbites coming out of the Saints camp suggesting they were struggling to get to grips with the step up in level. I suppose it goes to show that having a high number of *current* internationals is the best way to be able to ramp up the intensity when necessary. That's what Saracens and Leinster have. If you have former internationals, it seems it's quite likely they'll settle at the 'steady' level of the Premiership. England having 12 clubs to Ireland's 4 means the spread of current internationals is likely to be thinner.

If that hypothesis is correct, it suggests you should make room for the international game, as happens in Ireland. The PRL want to have their cake an eat it, wanting to grow their brand by buying up internationals, when that very action means that they'll no longer be as good if all they're playing is the slog of the Premiership week-in, week-out. Plus, their attitude to the international game over player release and Lions tours threatens the very structure they rely on to have these 'stars'.

Toulon took a bunch of ex internationals and turned it into one of the most formidable teams Europe has ever seen. There's no one answer as to how to create a HC winning team, it's a combination of a variety of different things and a bit of luck on the way.

[paddyor]

It's only 3 years ago they had 5 teams in the QFs and 3 in the SFs........

I think it's clear there's been a drop off in the quality of the GP sides. Of the 5 sides who made the QFs in 2016, 3(Tigers, Wasps & Saints) of them have bombed in the last few years and look a long way off challenging. Of those I'd say Wasps seem to have fallen hardest (given they were challenging for a league title in 2016?). Turns out spunking 1.2m on Kurtley Beale is not the answer. Which is quite funny how often we were reassured by the money men that the fanswanted the biggest names playing in games that mattered and that's what would drive growth! They've since been reduced to a CVC "bailout" for their mostly loss making ventures.

Some of it's cyclical, squads get old, there's more player turnover in the GP, it's harder to break in young players etc, but it does seem like the extra cash and Cap increase has f*cked the squad make up of a lot of teams. In fact the extra cash has probably exacerabted squad turnover and further limited opportunities for young players(in that it creates a more darwinian enviroment where you don't want to oppen the door to a rival). Ian Madigan wouldn't earn 500k pa in Ireland. Ben T'eo wouldn't be getting close to 800k for club and country in Ireland either. I don't see how you fix the problems of the GP by tinkering with Europe.

Certainly the thrashing we gave Wasps and their new star Lima Sopoaga in the opening round of last season's HCC seems to have burst their bubble big time and may even have contributed to Elliot Daly soon thereafter seeking pastures greener - and artificial - in Allianz Park....

Nah, there were a good few problems with Wasps. Squad was really thin(spending big on flops), underspending on facilities like the training ground and running over the Cap(VAT iirc). All contributed to an undermotivated squad. The squad was in bits by middle of last season.....but hey we signed Fekitoa!

[ronk]

Sure there is. Obviously there's the quality, work ethic and coaching. Then there's the effort in every game with the ability to dig deeper when it has to be done. The big one is the ability to feed off the hosts when travelling.

The great HC sides weren't good enough to overcome playing away, they enjoyed it. They wanted to spoil the party.

[paddyor]

Given that they have players like Owen Franks, Lawes, Reinach, Bigger and Proctor in their set up, I was a bit surprised at the soundbites coming out of the Saints camp suggesting they were struggling to get to grips with the step up in level. I suppose it goes to show that having a high number of *current* internationals is the best way to be able to ramp up the intensity when necessary. That's what Saracens and Leinster have. If you have former internationals, it seems it's quite likely they'll settle at the 'steady' level of the Premiership. England having 12 clubs to Ireland's 4 means the spread of current internationals is likely to be thinner.

If that hypothesis is correct, it suggests you should make room for the international game, as happens in Ireland. The PRL want to have their cake an eat it, wanting to grow their brand by buying up internationals, when that very action means that they'll no longer be as good if all they're playing is the slog of the Premiership week-in, week-out. Plus, their attitude to the international game over player release and Lions tours threatens the very structure they rely on to have these 'stars'.

Ireland has less than 20% of the number of adult male players in England in rugby union. England have more than 131,000 whilst Ireland have just over 25,000. We field 4 highly competent professional teams and England field 12, 8 of questionable quality in European competition.

Maybe PRL need to look seriously at their development pathways if that's the best they can do.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the two most productive academy’s are the ones with the DORs longest in the saddle. Sale and Quins seem to do quite well at the moment too which is as I understand it down to a lack of cash.

If you think back to MOCs “grand plan” for Leinster he saw the future as signing 8-9 players. What’s the point in developing a player on a 4-5 year timeline(like Lancaster talked about in an interview today) if you’re maybe out the door in 2 years.

[paddyor]

One thing I think they should do away with is the seeding for the SF. It should be open draw. The current format just gives group winners(favorites) too much benefit. Or maybe move it to a set location.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

One thing I think they should do away with is the seeding for the SF. It should be open draw. The current format just gives group winners(favorites) too much benefit. Or maybe move it to a set location.

a neutral, set location might be a sensible idea. Not so sure about the home and away semi finals. I know it works in soccer and is a huge money spinner for the clubs but the idea that you could play a team twice in the pools and again in the semi finals doesn't make sense to me.

[johng]

Have 2 teams from the same group ever contested a semi final?