Signings

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wixfjord
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Re: Signings

Post by wixfjord »

Flash Gordon wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
Flash Gordon wrote:
If Sexton goes, our oldest outhalf is 24 and there are kids behind, albeit very talented kids. Given his ability to play in multiple positions I wonder if Madigan is worth a shot. Would be good for Ireland too.
Would signing a 31 year old who has struggled to start ahead of the likes of Callum Sheedy and Simon Hickey in recent years be a good signing? Not even making the bench for Bristol at the moment.

I think Madsers ship has sailed and given the money he's likely on in the UK and the talent he'd be blocking here I'm not sure it'd be a good move for anyone, never mind for Ireland.
He's 30 so probably has 3 or 4 good years left, the point is that he plays 3 positions and plays them well, an Isa role if you will. I see that Carbery is out for the foreseeable and we are going into the 6 Nations with Sexton who is often injured and a fairly big gap behind him. Of course, Ross Byrne Or Carty might take that opportunity but Joe didn't judge them good enough thus far.

From Leinster's point of view I suppose there is a counter argument that our system has enough depth to compete in the Pro 14 without imports.

For the Champions Cup, I'm not sure there is any position held by an Irish player that I'd want replaced if everyone is fit, though we could always use a bit of depth in positions we ship injuries like backrow and center.

Wonder if Ian Madigan will look back on his career and judge whether he made the right choices?
He'd be 31 by the time we get him back though, and I'm not really sure how 'well' he plays 12 or 15, never mind 10.

He's not even making the Bristol 23 at the moment and I think when you look at Frawley, Harry Byrne, COB, JOB, Keenan along with other more established younger guys I think thier ceilings are higher than Madser at this stage.

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Re: Signings

Post by joooooe »

joooooe wrote:
Jonny tight lips wrote:Just because Munster go out and sign a few lads dosent mean we have to. It’s nice to see them shopping abroad instead of the leinster first team.
This sums up this thread for me. With the exception of tight head prop Munster could put out an all non-Munster XV and the further we get from that the better. Don't get me wrong, there is a place in the team and the coaching staff for a couple of quality imports (Lowe, Nacewa, Fardy, Contepomi, Le Roux,...) but if we have viable internal options we don't have to go and buy in talent.
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wise7
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Re: Signings

Post by wise7 »

Why would you put value on what Joe thought about Ross Byrne or Jack Carty not being good enough given what has transpired with his infatuation with Carberry. Joey was kept in the in 6 N camp with a serious hamstring injury and Schmidt kept spinning fibs to the media about well he was training and would be ready to play. We got the same sh!t from Joe about Joey's ankle injury and he was brought to Japan injured and more spinning by Joe about how close to playing Joey was etc and now the player seems to be in real bother to get himself fit to play for Munster. Fact is Carberry has not yet proven himself to be a viable option at 10 at international test level but the media kept buying Schmidt's hype about his 'special project'.

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Re: Signings

Post by Flash Gordon »

wise7 wrote:Why would you put value on what Joe thought about Ross Byrne or Jack Carty not being good enough given what has transpired with his infatuation with Carberry. Joey was kept in the in 6 N camp with a serious hamstring injury and Schmidt kept spinning fibs to the media about well he was training and would be ready to play. We got the same sh!t from Joe about Joey's ankle injury and he was brought to Japan injured and more spinning by Joe about how close to playing Joey was etc and now the player seems to be in real bother to get himself fit to play for Munster. Fact is Carberry has not yet proven himself to be a viable option at 10 at international test level but the media kept buying Schmidt's hype about his 'special project'.
I'd put value on it because he's the most successful coach Leinster and Ireland have ever had! Ross Byrne had game time during the warm up games (albeit limited) and was very poor. The media stuff is irrelevant. Do you really expect Joe to tell the media that Carbery is a doubt or not training well? Personally, I agree with Lancaster that Carbery is probably a full back but we needed an outhalf option for the world cup.

Ross Byrne is still very young, he had limited opportunity in the warm up but he did have opportunity and unfortunately he played poorly. I agree with Joe, he's not there yet. Similarly, when Johnny is fit at Leinster he starts, there's not a question mark there yet. Regarding Carty, I'd agree with Joe that he's a bit further on but not there yet either. So it doesn't really leave any option for Ireland does it?

Carbery has 22 caps for Ireland and to be fair to the lad has played very well when he has played for Ireland in my opinion. My concern is that at Munster he sits between an out of form scrum half and a bish bosh center partnership. He has also been under the tutelage of an attack coach who was fired. And with body weight in the low 80's kg he's getting injured a lot. If there were was another obvious outhalf challenging Johnny my personal view would be that he offers a lot a Full Back but unfortunately there isn't yet an obvious option.
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Re: Signings

Post by wise7 »

Ross Byrne had one appearance in the warm up games. He started In Twickenham against a fully loaded England and had a pretty good first 30 minutes.The performance of the team and the pack in particular headed South early on in that game and it is wholly incorrect to say that Ross played poorly. In fact two of the UK Sunday's gave Ross a '7' which was the second highest score given to any of the team. A bit unfair to say the least that Ross subsequently was the only player from that starting 15 not to go to Japan but an injured carberry was taken. He made two mistakes in the second half, a dropped pass and a kick out on the full.

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Re: Signings

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Flash Gordon wrote:
wise7 wrote:Why would you put value on what Joe thought about Ross Byrne or Jack Carty not being good enough given what has transpired with his infatuation with Carberry. Joey was kept in the in 6 N camp with a serious hamstring injury and Schmidt kept spinning fibs to the media about well he was training and would be ready to play. We got the same sh!t from Joe about Joey's ankle injury and he was brought to Japan injured and more spinning by Joe about how close to playing Joey was etc and now the player seems to be in real bother to get himself fit to play for Munster. Fact is Carberry has not yet proven himself to be a viable option at 10 at international test level but the media kept buying Schmidt's hype about his 'special project'.
I'd put value on it because he's the most successful coach Leinster and Ireland have ever had! Ross Byrne had game time during the warm up games (albeit limited) and was very poor. The media stuff is irrelevant. Do you really expect Joe to tell the media that Carbery is a doubt or not training well? Personally, I agree with Lancaster that Carbery is probably a full back but we needed an outhalf option for the world cup.

Ross Byrne is still very young, he had limited opportunity in the warm up but he did have opportunity and unfortunately he played poorly. I agree with Joe, he's not there yet. Similarly, when Johnny is fit at Leinster he starts, there's not a question mark there yet. Regarding Carty, I'd agree with Joe that he's a bit further on but not there yet either. So it doesn't really leave any option for Ireland does it?

Carbery has 22 caps for Ireland and to be fair to the lad has played very well when he has played for Ireland in my opinion. My concern is that at Munster he sits between an out of form scrum half and a bish bosh center partnership. He has also been under the tutelage of an attack coach who was fired. And with body weight in the low 80's kg he's getting injured a lot. If there were was another obvious outhalf challenging Johnny my personal view would be that he offers a lot a Full Back but unfortunately there isn't yet an obvious option.
There is a huge ? over Sexton.
When he's fit, when next do you expect that to be the case?
Regardless of fitness he is not at the same level he was a year ago.
Carberry, unfortunately looks like a sick note which basically leaves us with Carty and Byrne as our immediate options for OH.
If Farrell recognises the fact that he has two sick notes on his hands then he should not start either of them.
Even a bench position is debatable but I wouldn't rule it out.
The 6Ns draw is good for Farrell this year
Scotland and Italy are home bankers, Wales would be difficult but far from insurmountable.
England away nah, France doable depending on their fitness.
So effectively we don't need Sexton for this 6N and anyone who thinks he's going to be in better form next season, well good luck with that.
The situation at Leinster is slightly different given the number of games involved.
Sexton needs to be managed very well by Leinster this season.
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Re: Signings

Post by Dave Cahill »

Flash Gordon wrote:
I'd put value on it because he's the most successful coach Leinster and Ireland have ever had!
His track record on the assessment of out-halves is not exactly exemplary though
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Re: Signings

Post by Flash Gordon »

wise7 wrote:Ross Byrne had one appearance in the warm up games. He started In Twickenham against a fully loaded England and had a pretty good first 30 minutes.The performance of the team and the pack in particular headed South early on in that game and it is wholly incorrect to say that Ross played poorly. In fact two of the UK Sunday's gave Ross a '7' which was the second highest score given to any of the team. A bit unfair to say the least that Ross subsequently was the only player from that starting 15 not to go to Japan but an injured carberry was taken. He made two mistakes in the second half, a dropped pass and a kick out on the full.
He was nothing like a 7. I don't want to have a go at a Leinster player but this was the Irish Times view "Failed his big examination. On 51 minutes Luke McGrath passed into the 22 and with Maro Itoje blocking out the sun Byrne kicked straight into touch. Also threw plenty of hospital passes. Rating: 3" I'd add he also missed 4 of 9 tackles.

As you say he had limited opportunity and the lad still has a way to go in his development and hopefully he'll rack up 50 caps for Ireland but improvement requires honesty and that assessment of his game against England is way off, like many in the Ireland team he was very poor that day.
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Re: Signings

Post by Flash Gordon »

Dave Cahill wrote:
Flash Gordon wrote:
I'd put value on it because he's the most successful coach Leinster and Ireland have ever had!
His track record on the assessment of out-halves is not exactly exemplary though
Hard to tell. At both Leinster and Ireland he had the best outhalf in the world in the driving seat so the choice was pretty straightforward.

What were you thinking that he got wrong? Is it the Carbery is an outhalf not a fullback?
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Re: Signings

Post by wixfjord »

wise7 wrote:Ross Byrne had one appearance in the warm up games. He started In Twickenham against a fully loaded England and had a pretty good first 30 minutes.The performance of the team and the pack in particular headed South early on in that game and it is wholly incorrect to say that Ross played poorly. In fact two of the UK Sunday's gave Ross a '7' which was the second highest score given to any of the team. A bit unfair to say the least that Ross subsequently was the only player from that starting 15 not to go to Japan but an injured carberry was taken. He made two mistakes in the second half, a dropped pass and a kick out on the full.
You've never told us how you're related to Ross?

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Re: Signings

Post by Dave Cahill »

Flash Gordon wrote: What were you thinking that he got wrong? Is it the Carbery is an outhalf not a fullback?
He signed a lot of mediocre outhalves at Leinster, and his adherence to Carbery and sidelining of Byrne reeked of hubris (and perhaps a soupçon of revenge)
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Re: Signings

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So Leinster are forced to move academy produced players to cover Munsters shortfall in positions because we are “over stocked” in certain positions..... Then Munster can sign De Allende blocking goggin, Arnold and whichever young players are coming through, they also sign Snyman blocking one of Kleyn, Holland and the next greatest thing (because he tackled Johnny off the ball) Wycherley.....

Bear in mind Munster completely over extended themselves on Thomand park and we are subsiding them to pay off the stadium, yet somehow they have money for two World Cup winners. 11 SA at Munster now. Easy to see why Leinster are becoming so disenfranchised with the IRFU
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Re: Signings

Post by riocard911 »

bluemagic wrote:So Leinster are forced to move academy produced players to cover Munsters shortfall in positions because we are “over stocked” in certain positions..... Then Munster can sign De Allende blocking goggin, Arnold and whichever young players are coming through, they also sign Snyman blocking one of Kleyn, Holland and the next greatest thing (because he tackled Johnny off the ball) Wycherley.....

Bear in mind Munster completely over extended themselves on Thomand park and we are subsiding them to pay off the stadium, yet somehow they have money for two World Cup winners. 11 SA at Munster now. Easy to see why Leinster are becoming so disenfranchised with the IRFU
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Re: Signings

Post by curates_egg »

bluemagic wrote:11 SA at Munster now.
I heard that number bandied about yesterday but it is not true.
They have 16 imports (non-Munster developed players) in the senior squad, which will drop to 15 if Matthewson leaves (and I can't see the IRFU paying for him to stay after him slagging off Sexton).
8 are overseas imports of which 4 are from South Africa, based on my maths.
The only way you get the figure 11 is by subtracting the SAFA imports from the total number after Matthewson leaves.

Now, there are other SAFAs in the Munster system (not in the academy) I think, but I don't know where you get to the figure eleven.

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Re: Signings

Post by bluemagic »

curates_egg wrote:
bluemagic wrote:11 SA at Munster now.
I heard that number bandied about yesterday but it is not true.
They have 16 imports (non-Munster developed players) in the senior squad, which will drop to 15 if Matthewson leaves (and I can't see the IRFU paying for him to stay after him slagging off Sexton).
8 are overseas imports of which 4 are from South Africa, based on my maths.
The only way you get the figure 11 is by subtracting the SAFA imports from the total number after Matthewson leaves.

Now, there are other SAFAs in the Munster system (not in the academy) I think, but I don't know where you get to the figure eleven.
1. Botha
2. Cloete
3. De Allende
4. Snyman
5. Kleyn
6. Stander
7. Kenyan Knox
8. Matt More

Yes 11 may be incorrect. I can only come up with 8
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Re: Signings

Post by curates_egg »

bluemagic wrote:
curates_egg wrote:
bluemagic wrote:11 SA at Munster now.
I heard that number bandied about yesterday but it is not true.
They have 16 imports (non-Munster developed players) in the senior squad, which will drop to 15 if Matthewson leaves (and I can't see the IRFU paying for him to stay after him slagging off Sexton).
8 are overseas imports of which 4 are from South Africa, based on my maths.
The only way you get the figure 11 is by subtracting the SAFA imports from the total number after Matthewson leaves.

Now, there are other SAFAs in the Munster system (not in the academy) I think, but I don't know where you get to the figure eleven.
1. Botha
2. Cloete
3. De Allende
4. Snyman
5. Kleyn
6. Stander
7. Kenyan Knox
8. Matt More

Yes 11 may be incorrect. I can only come up with 8
Snyman and De Allende are not contracted to Munster yet.
Knox is in the academy: I forgot him.
I haven't heard much about More since the initial press reports. Is he still there? He's not listed in any squad.

Edit. Just googled and More left last season: https://www.munsterrugby.ie/2019/03/25/ ... arch-2019/

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Re: Signings

Post by bluemagic »

When I heard 11 it was in the context of De Allende and Snyman joining. Hadn’t realised More left. So it’s 7 then next year. Still not great.

You’d expect more than half of munsters squad in big games next year to be non-Munster players
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Re: Signings

Post by curates_egg »

bluemagic wrote:When I heard 11 it was in the context of De Allende and Snyman joining. Hadn’t realised More left. So it’s 7 then next year. Still not great.

You’d expect more than half of munsters squad in big games next year to be non-Munster players
If those signings go through, they will probably still have a stable amount of non-Munster players in the squad: Matthewson will be gone, and you can't imagine they will be allowed to keep all of Carbery, Blyendaal, Farrell, Arnold?
It's clearly the model they're going for. I can't understand how the IRFU thinks it's a good thing...or why the fans do. I certainly wouldn't want us going down that path.

If we lose Cronin, I'd like us to sign another hooker. Apart from that, I really don't think we need anyone, beyond maybe bringing Jordi back if Fardy leaves.

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Re: Signings

Post by joooooe »

bluemagic wrote:So Leinster are forced to move academy produced players to cover Munsters shortfall in positions because we are “over stocked” in certain positions..... Then Munster can sign De Allende blocking goggin, Arnold and whichever young players are coming through, they also sign Snyman blocking one of Kleyn, Holland and the next greatest thing (because he tackled Johnny off the ball) Wycherley.....

Bear in mind Munster completely over extended themselves on Thomand park and we are subsiding them to pay off the stadium, yet somehow they have money for two World Cup winners. 11 SA at Munster now. Easy to see why Leinster are becoming so disenfranchised with the IRFU
Even Arnold and Farrell are imports from Ulster.

A chant of "you're not Munster anymore" could be appropriate.

I heard the figure of 11 SAs from Andy Dunne on the 42 rugby podcast (which is excellent, btw). Perhaps he was including coaches?

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Re: Signings

Post by curates_egg »

joooooe wrote:
bluemagic wrote:So Leinster are forced to move academy produced players to cover Munsters shortfall in positions because we are “over stocked” in certain positions..... Then Munster can sign De Allende blocking goggin, Arnold and whichever young players are coming through, they also sign Snyman blocking one of Kleyn, Holland and the next greatest thing (because he tackled Johnny off the ball) Wycherley.....

Bear in mind Munster completely over extended themselves on Thomand park and we are subsiding them to pay off the stadium, yet somehow they have money for two World Cup winners. 11 SA at Munster now. Easy to see why Leinster are becoming so disenfranchised with the IRFU
Even Arnold and Farrell are imports from Ulster.

A chant of "you're not Munster anymore" could be appropriate.

I heard the figure of 11 SAs from Andy Dunne on the 42 rugby podcast (which is excellent, btw). Perhaps he was including coaches?
Still would get you to only 7 this season and 9 next season, assuming they make those signings and nobody leaves:
1. Botha
2. Cloete
3. De Allende
4. Snyman
5. Kleyn
6. Stander
7. Knox
8. Van Graan
9. Ferreira

I agree it is still a very high amount. But, if you're going to bandy numbers about as a journalist/pundit, they should be correct.
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