Saints away 7th December

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St.Kenneth
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Post by St.Kenneth »

There are quality players in the Premiership, but as you say, England made the World Cup final but that was on the back of having loads of Saracens players and having others spread around the remaining 11 Premiership sides.
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The Doc
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Post by The Doc »

St.Kenneth wrote:The clubs may want to get rid of relegation, but as a supporter I wouldn’t want to.

We got relegated as did Quinn’s and it gave us the chance to reorganise and restructure our club and when we came back both of us won the Premiership within a few years. I’m sure relegation would give Leicester the chance to rebuild and refresh things.

The real issue is how everyone’s squads are put together. Our salary cap is lower than the French and to be honest I’m not sure what constraints if any you guys have in assembling your squads. We may whinge about the cap but that’s the facts so we either have to accept it or abolish it.

As much as I’d love to win the HEC again I also want a Premiership where clubs like Worcester and Irish, are as equally competitive as those with sugar daddies like Bath and Bristol. It can’t be a coincidence that the only club from the Premiership that has been successful in recent years in the HEC is the one who bypassed the Premiership’s wage cap.

Rugby is largely a loss making business and the wage cap means that sides don’t go way beyond their fiscal limits to try and buy success (apart from Saracens). Without the cap, you’ll not only find the Premiership will be won every season by the likes of Bristol, Bath and Sarries, but sides like Saints and Leicester could fall way behind and possibly go bust.

Each league is setup within different boundaries and it’s those differences that make the Champions Cup skewed.
Indeed each league has its own restrictions. In England, the salary cap limiting the number of "big name" players. For Irish teams, the inability to sign many overseas players (low single digits max) combined with so few teams feeding the national team (Leinster gave up 15 players to the WC I think) along with general player welfare requirements mean that we have no choice to bring academy prospects through at a higher rate (The other Pro14 clubs have the same issue with loss of players to the National squad). If I recall, the last time we played you we won the game with about 3 or 4 academy players in the 23. Ironically, the following week, with more of our established players back, we lost.

So each league forces certain comprises on their teams and they aren't the same. I find the attempt to compare the leagues very frustrating. They just have different dynamics. Leinster don't have to worry about relegation but on the flip side, a Bath or Bristol don't have to worry about only having a couple of non-English qualified senior players and lose a third of their squad for half the season.
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fourthirtythree
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Post by fourthirtythree »

Leinster play our academy guys because we have no option. We disnt rest players last week, we looked at the blocks of games and when we wouldnt be allowed play our internationals, and managed our squad accordingly. We have to do it early in the yeat too or else they not be up to it during the 6N as O'Connor discovered to our loss.

The scary thing is that Saracens have an academy and are forced to play less experienced players in
bigger matches. Imagine having that pupeline AND sugar daddy elite players to go with it.
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blockhead
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Post by blockhead »

St.Kenneth wrote:The clubs may want to get rid of relegation, but as a supporter I wouldn’t want to.

We got relegated as did Quinn’s and it gave us the chance to reorganise and restructure our club and when we came back both of us won the Premiership within a few years. I’m sure relegation would give Leicester the chance to rebuild and refresh things.

The real issue is how everyone’s squads are put together. Our salary cap is lower than the French and to be honest I’m not sure what constraints if any you guys have in assembling your squads. We may whinge about the cap but that’s the facts so we either have to accept it or abolish it.

As much as I’d love to win the HEC again I also want a Premiership where clubs like Worcester and Irish, are as equally competitive as those with sugar daddies like Bath and Bristol. It can’t be a coincidence that the only club from the Premiership that has been successful in recent years in the HEC is the one who bypassed the Premiership’s wage cap.

Rugby is largely a loss making business and the wage cap means that sides don’t go way beyond their fiscal limits to try and buy success (apart from Saracens). Without the cap, you’ll not only find the Premiership will be won every season by the likes of Bristol, Bath and Sarries, but sides like Saints and Leicester could fall way behind and possibly go bust.

Each league is setup within different boundaries and it’s those differences that make the Champions Cup skewed.
We have to develop our own players. Northampton have 16? non English Players on their roster. We have 5 overseas players. That's our constraint. Leinster also suffer from player drain to the other provinces, about 25 at last count, so we have to keep developing more players.
The relegation excuse in nonsense in Nov/Dec btw.
5 games into the Prem and their all bollixed? Nonsense.

We get a very similar excuse in the soccer.
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Ruckedtobits
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Post by Ruckedtobits »

One of the core differences in the three Leagues is the number of overseas players allowed (or not). This is being rectified in one League, the Top 14, by the introduction of a minimum number of JIFF players - essentially a requirement for French-eligible players. In ireland, we did the same 5 years ago and have enforced it over the past three years and reinforced it over the past two Season by Nucifora making it known that the Irish Management will look favourably on Leinster players who move elsewhere for 1st team rugby.

Leinster don't tell players they are not first choice, but they rotate players so that very few are ever certain. Other Provinces, when recruiting Leinster players have been known to indicate the they will get "x number of starts, in their first Season".

IMO, only Leinster and Ulster have truly given their Academy / Development players a real chance to develop - by game time. This Season, Munster appear to be doing the same and Andy Friend has certainly given individual Academy / Development players their chance e.g. Blade, Boyle and Burke, even if less players together at a time than Leinster.

The Matt O'Connor method is the standard option in the Premiership. If you're missing a few front-liners, bring in a few seasoned campaigners, or Overseas Pros, who are not going to get called up, rather than trusting a couple of younger players who's development you have overseen closely for two or three years.

That's the core reason that Leo has been a brilliant Head Coach for Leinster. Ever since that tough first Season when he took over, he has been prepared to give a few young guys the chance when required and it has paid off in spades.

Couple that with having the Academy guys train with the Senior team, are the two main reasons why the Leinster development pathway is so successful. Speaking with one of the Toulouse Academy guys last Season, he confirmed that they are now following exactly the same path as Leinster in these two aspects. Give them game time in groups and have then train with, and in competition with, the Senior players.

It's not rocker science, but it needs a strong Head Coach who doesn't allow egos to prevail but allows competition to prosper. A certain man called Brian Cody has been applying this process for almost 20 years.

wixfjord
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Post by wixfjord »

Ruckedtobits wrote:
The Matt O'Connor method is the standard option in the Premiership. If you're missing a few front-liners, bring in a few seasoned campaigners, or Overseas Pros, who are not going to get called up, rather than trusting a couple of younger players who's development you have overseen closely for two or three years.
Why do you think that is?

Could it be because the Premiership is innately focused on the short term and there's more pressure on to get immediate results, so coaches are less incentivised to give young guys game time?

Again, this goes back to the pressure that exists on every game in the Premiership.

As I said above, it's worth listening to both DOC and Madigan's interviews on Jarlath Regan's podcast on the grinding nature of Premiership rugby and the different pressures that exist.

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ronk
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Post by ronk »

Northampton played really well and were cutting us open before we adjusted. They came to play rugby and it was a fun game to watch. I think that's a more important lesson to come away with.

There have been many many talent laden teams coming up over the years that didn't quite get there. They didn't have the nous. Saracens are far more than just a group of really talented players. They are also one of smartest and hard working teams around. Toulon were like that too. Usually it takes a few years of apparent underachievement to get the street smarts. Leo Cullen and Shane Jennings gave Leinster that edge that moved them on to the next level: fierce and fiercely smart players.

The salary cap is a red herring. There are problems but so what, it couldn't be otherwise with 3 competing competitions or with cross border rivalries. Structurally the one thing the prem could is protect investments in academies. Even soccer has that. American Football has also done that with rookie contracts. Free agency kicks in fully later.

Leinster competed full bore in the HC & Pro 14 with huge player release for the Internationals because we focused on development, not in spite of it. The drag on us at the moment is other provinces poaching our talent. Permitted because it appeared to deepen the talent pool for the RWC.

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Oldschool
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Post by Oldschool »

Leinster are currently producing more players than they can keep happy.
So it's not poaching, it's a combination of poaching and culling.
The culled players end up in other provinces or go abroad. The "Ex Leinster" players thread has ample examples.
The poached players stay in Ireland.
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alanair
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Post by alanair »

alanair wrote:
LeinsterLeader wrote:Anybody know if there's a recording of the game anywhere or if Channel 4/Virgin/BT will have a re showing during the week?

Cheers
are you kidding me ? - Im betting Virgin will show the match at least 10 times next week- anything they have seems to be on a permanent loop
Match on tonight on Virgin sport ( channel 116) tonight

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Xanthippe
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Post by Xanthippe »

Edna Kenny wrote:
OTT wrote: They were top in 2013 as well if I remember rightly and further into the season (I think they were undefeated as well). Sport can kick you in the balls when you least expect it, I would take any sort of win this weekend.

Sacrlets must have put 7 or 8 trys on us back in 2008 or 2009 at the RDS in a league match I think Ferg did his knee in it. I can't remember another match like that at home. Xan or Cormac probably have the stats.
23-52 in October 2007.
In that 23-52 victory they scored 6 tries against us. In fact they are the only non Irish team to have ever scored 6 against us in Dublin (they also scored 6 as Llanelli in Donnybrook in the 98-99 H Cup)

Next 'best' is Glasgow who put 5 past us last April
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Flash Gordon
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Post by Flash Gordon »

ronk wrote:Northampton played really well and were cutting us open before we adjusted. They came to play rugby and it was a fun game to watch. I think that's a more important lesson to come away with.

There have been many many talent laden teams coming up over the years that didn't quite get there. They didn't have the nous. Saracens are far more than just a group of really talented players. They are also one of smartest and hard working teams around. Toulon were like that too. Usually it takes a few years of apparent underachievement to get the street smarts. Leo Cullen and Shane Jennings gave Leinster that edge that moved them on to the next level: fierce and fiercely smart players.

The salary cap is a red herring. There are problems but so what, it couldn't be otherwise with 3 competing competitions or with cross border rivalries. Structurally the one thing the prem could is protect investments in academies. Even soccer has that. American Football has also done that with rookie contracts. Free agency kicks in fully later.

Leinster competed full bore in the HC & Pro 14 with huge player release for the Internationals because we focused on development, not in spite of it. The drag on us at the moment is other provinces poaching our talent. Permitted because it appeared to deepen the talent pool for the RWC.
Totally agree on protecting players coming through the academies in England. London Irish invested heavily in their academy 7 or 8 years ago but whenever players came though and played a season in the first team they were poached by Leicester, Bath, Wasps or Northampton. If a player spends years coming through an academy system the club that produced him should really be compensated appropriately.

To be honest, I think we need to look at something similar with Leinster. Not transfer fees but if all provinces and Ireland are benefiting, maybe it would be appropriate for the IRFU to support this more with increased investment in facilities and underage rugby.
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