Leinster v Salarysins

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I can't remember who said it but some journalist mentioned recently that Lancaster was annoyed with Sexton after that game because he didn't implement the game plan that they'd devised. IIRC the talk beforehand was that we needed to be brave with our passing to get outside their blitz defence but tightened up too much so suspect it may have been related to that.

I can't get over the reaction to the figures from the Saracens report, they seem to be getting an awful lot of sympathy on twitter. People seem to think it's not that bad on the basis that they originally thought that the figure of £2m was per season as opposed to in total...two of the three seasons were around £1m over FFS! PR have done a terrible job of explaining things though and that hasn't helped.

[Dave Cahill]

Perhaps why the report was leaked in advance of PR releasing it. These things don't happen by accident

[LeinsterLeader]

regardless of whether it's too severe or not severe enough, am I right in thinking that this, more or less puts to bed the issue over whether the players where aware or not, and by extension they are culpable (even if only in a moral sense) to some degree?

[tingman]

I can't remember who said it but some journalist mentioned recently that Lancaster was annoyed with Sexton after that game because he didn't implement the game plan that they'd devised. IIRC the talk beforehand was that we needed to be brave with our passing to get outside their blitz defence but tightened up too much so suspect it may have been related to that.

I can't get over the reaction to the figures from the Saracens report, they seem to be getting an awful lot of sympathy on twitter. People seem to think it's not that bad on the basis that they originally thought that the figure of £2m was per season as opposed to in total...two of the three seasons were around £1m over FFS! PR have done a terrible job of explaining things though and that hasn't helped.

This confirms the point Brendan Venter was making (or maybe its a consequence of it) on the podcast link elsewhere on this thread. He was "surprised" at how low the numbers were. Which begs the question - why not open the books to audit? They could redact the names of players involved.

[Oldschool]

IMO, our problems in Newcastle related exclusively to the power of the Sarries' front-five. They lost a Prop, then another but their scrum got stronger and more dominant. Yes, we made mistakes, notably a badly executed box kick when the clock was in the red just before half-time, but the essential shortcoming was the power of their front five which meant we were unable to impose pressure on them.

Not a lot has changed since Newcastle - but hopefully enough of those marginal gains will be sufficiently in our favour to alter the outcome.

In my view those gains are:
1. The significant international experience gained by James Ryan & Andrew Porter:
2. The advent of Ronan Kelleher as one of our potential hookers;
3. The increased experience of Peter Dooley as a front-line LHP;
4. Luke McGrath's improved understanding & execution in increasing our tempo:
5. The experience of the entire Squad who played Sarries in Newcastle and the lessons they learned as to how Sarries imposed themselves on us in the 2nd half.

Exeter Chiefs, with perhaps the best PRL coaching brain of Rob Baxter, have gradually learned how to play against and beat Sarries in important matches. They learned from each of their games over the past four years what are the vital aspects and they now execute their own game in their own time.

I have confidence that Leo, Stuart, Felipe and Robin McBride have the collective coaching 'nous' to beat whatever crew Sarries assemble to face us on April 4th in Aviva. I strongly believe that a noisy Leinster full house can provide a critical point of difference for such a game. But above all, I believe that the artificial nature of Saracens' season will have dawned fully on their players by that date and, by full time, they will realize they are playing their last ever meaningful game as a Club team.

Unusually for you RTB you're a bit off the mark.
BV terrorised Sexton into making game changing mistakes.
BV bossed Sexton into a near intercept and then finally the game breaking intercept and they were just the obvious impacts.

[TrapperChamonix]

IMO, our problems in Newcastle related exclusively to the power of the Sarries' front-five. They lost a Prop, then another but their scrum got stronger and more dominant. Yes, we made mistakes, notably a badly executed box kick when the clock was in the red just before half-time, but the essential shortcoming was the power of their front five which meant we were unable to impose pressure on them.

Not a lot has changed since Newcastle - but hopefully enough of those marginal gains will be sufficiently in our favour to alter the outcome.

In my view those gains are:
1. The significant international experience gained by James Ryan & Andrew Porter:
2. The advent of Ronan Kelleher as one of our potential hookers;
3. The increased experience of Peter Dooley as a front-line LHP;
4. Luke McGrath's improved understanding & execution in increasing our tempo:
5. The experience of the entire Squad who played Sarries in Newcastle and the lessons they learned as to how Sarries imposed themselves on us in the 2nd half.

Exeter Chiefs, with perhaps the best PRL coaching brain of Rob Baxter, have gradually learned how to play against and beat Sarries in important matches. They learned from each of their games over the past four years what are the vital aspects and they now execute their own game in their own time.

I have confidence that Leo, Stuart, Felipe and Robin McBride have the collective coaching 'nous' to beat whatever crew Sarries assemble to face us on April 4th in Aviva. I strongly believe that a noisy Leinster full house can provide a critical point of difference for such a game. But above all, I believe that the artificial nature of Saracens' season will have dawned fully on their players by that date and, by full time, they will realize they are playing their last ever meaningful game as a Club team.

I think we can say that our B & C teams have improved significantly since last year. Its much harder to say confidently that our A team has. Because it just hasn't been tested. Potentially our only back line change is Dave K in for Robbie K and a positional switch for Larmour. Is Van der FLier and Dorris (or Deegan) significantly better than SOB and Conan? For all Dooleys great form, is he better than Jack McGrath? I'd grant you that Kelleher & Porter look an improvement over Tracey & Bent and the 2nd half was when our bench was needed most.
From a Saracens POV only the absence of Billy V (if he is still injured) is a significant blow to them. As for playing in the Aviva, hopefully it gives us a boost, but I can't see it having a negative impact on them. Many were part of the winning England team last year and beat Munster in a SF in 2018 (or maybe 17?). I think you're last point is entirely valid, but its not possible to say whether it will be a negative or positive till the day itself.
We can definitely win but its the toughest game we have faced since the away SF in Toulon. We could do without the trip to SA in the preceding 2 weeks. (that will definitely test the B & C team).
Its got me very nervous.....G'wan Leinster

[riocard911]

IMO, our problems in Newcastle related exclusively to the power of the Sarries' front-five. They lost a Prop, then another but their scrum got stronger and more dominant. Yes, we made mistakes, notably a badly executed box kick when the clock was in the red just before half-time, but the essential shortcoming was the power of their front five which meant we were unable to impose pressure on them.

Not a lot has changed since Newcastle - but hopefully enough of those marginal gains will be sufficiently in our favour to alter the outcome.

In my view those gains are:
1. The significant international experience gained by James Ryan & Andrew Porter:
2. The advent of Ronan Kelleher as one of our potential hookers;
3. The increased experience of Peter Dooley as a front-line LHP;
4. Luke McGrath's improved understanding & execution in increasing our tempo:
5. The experience of the entire Squad who played Sarries in Newcastle and the lessons they learned as to how Sarries imposed themselves on us in the 2nd half.

Exeter Chiefs, with perhaps the best PRL coaching brain of Rob Baxter, have gradually learned how to play against and beat Sarries in important matches. They learned from each of their games over the past four years what are the vital aspects and they now execute their own game in their own time.

I have confidence that Leo, Stuart, Felipe and Robin McBride have the collective coaching 'nous' to beat whatever crew Sarries assemble to face us on April 4th in Aviva. I strongly believe that a noisy Leinster full house can provide a critical point of difference for such a game. But above all, I believe that the artificial nature of Saracens' season will have dawned fully on their players by that date and, by full time, they will realize they are playing their last ever meaningful game as a Club team.

I don't quite understand why "the box kick" gets continuously referenced. It was well executed and we regained possession. The problem - as I remember it and if I'm wrong please correct me - was James Ryan charged forward with the ball, got isolated and then pinged for holding on on the ground.

[Oldschool]

I can't remember who said it but some journalist mentioned recently that Lancaster was annoyed with Sexton after that game because he didn't implement the game plan that they'd devised. IIRC the talk beforehand was that we needed to be brave with our passing to get outside their blitz defence but tightened up too much so suspect it may have been related to that.

I can't get over the reaction to the figures from the Saracens report, they seem to be getting an awful lot of sympathy on twitter. People seem to think it's not that bad on the basis that they originally thought that the figure of £2m was per season as opposed to in total...two of the three seasons were around £1m over FFS! PR have done a terrible job of explaining things though and that hasn't helped.

Re your point about non implementation of the plan.
Two points.
Maybe Sexton wasn't able to implement the plan.
If Sexton wasn't able to implement the plan then Leocaster's failure to react bears some scrutiny.
Perhaps, we'll never know, if Leocaster had subbed Byrne on sooner then the iceberg might have been avoided.

[ronk]

He was as láthair, these were the teams in 2018;


Leinster:

15. Rob Kearney
14. Fergus McFadden
13. Garry Ringrose
12. Isa Nacewa
11. James Lowe
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Luke McGrath

1. Cian Healy
2. Seán Cronin
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. Devin Toner
5. James Ryan
6. Scott Fardy
7. Dan Leavy
8. Jordi Murphy

Replacements:

16. James Tracy
17. Jack McGrath
18. Andrew Porter
19. Rhys Ruddock
20. Max Deegan
21. Nick McCarthy
22. Joey Carbery
23. Rory O’Loughlin


Saracens:

15. Alex Goode
14. Liam Williams
13. Marcelo Bosch
12. Brad Barritt
11. Sean Maitland
10. Owen Farrell
9. Richard Wigglesworth

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Jamie George
3. Juan Figallo
4. Maro Itoje
5. George Kruis
6. Nick Isiekwe
7. Schalk Burger
8. Jackson Wray

Replacements:

16. Schalk Brits
17. Richard Barrington
18. Titi Lamositele
19. Dominic Day
20. Blair Cowan
21. Ben Spencer
22. Alex Lozowski
23. Chris Wyles

It's a strong team, but one that looms like it could be within the salary cap.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

IMO, our problems in Newcastle related exclusively to the power of the Sarries' front-five. They lost a Prop, then another but their scrum got stronger and more dominant. Yes, we made mistakes, notably a badly executed box kick when the clock was in the red just before half-time, but the essential shortcoming was the power of their front five which meant we were unable to impose pressure on them.

Not a lot has changed since Newcastle - but hopefully enough of those marginal gains will be sufficiently in our favour to alter the outcome.

In my view those gains are:
1. The significant international experience gained by James Ryan & Andrew Porter:
2. The advent of Ronan Kelleher as one of our potential hookers;
3. The increased experience of Peter Dooley as a front-line LHP;
4. Luke McGrath's improved understanding & execution in increasing our tempo:
5. The experience of the entire Squad who played Sarries in Newcastle and the lessons they learned as to how Sarries imposed themselves on us in the 2nd half.

Exeter Chiefs, with perhaps the best PRL coaching brain of Rob Baxter, have gradually learned how to play against and beat Sarries in important matches. They learned from each of their games over the past four years what are the vital aspects and they now execute their own game in their own time.

I have confidence that Leo, Stuart, Felipe and Robin McBride have the collective coaching 'nous' to beat whatever crew Sarries assemble to face us on April 4th in Aviva. I strongly believe that a noisy Leinster full house can provide a critical point of difference for such a game. But above all, I believe that the artificial nature of Saracens' season will have dawned fully on their players by that date and, by full time, they will realize they are playing their last ever meaningful game as a Club team.

As impressive saracens* were I went away from that game thinking if we played them again next week, we would have them. I maybe wrong but there were two gilt Edge chances for tries in the first half that we fluffed. An overlap on the right was missed by ringros iirc and a horrible bounce stopped larmour a certain try.

In other words I thought we had an off day. But I agree with your points.... We have the nous to beat them..

[desperado]

IMO, our problems in Newcastle related exclusively to the power of the Sarries' front-five. They lost a Prop, then another but their scrum got stronger and more dominant. Yes, we made mistakes, notably a badly executed box kick when the clock was in the red just before half-time, but the essential shortcoming was the power of their front five which meant we were unable to impose pressure on them.

Not a lot has changed since Newcastle - but hopefully enough of those marginal gains will be sufficiently in our favour to alter the outcome.

In my view those gains are:
1. The significant international experience gained by James Ryan & Andrew Porter:
2. The advent of Ronan Kelleher as one of our potential hookers;
3. The increased experience of Peter Dooley as a front-line LHP;
4. Luke McGrath's improved understanding & execution in increasing our tempo:
5. The experience of the entire Squad who played Sarries in Newcastle and the lessons they learned as to how Sarries imposed themselves on us in the 2nd half.

Exeter Chiefs, with perhaps the best PRL coaching brain of Rob Baxter, have gradually learned how to play against and beat Sarries in important matches. They learned from each of their games over the past four years what are the vital aspects and they now execute their own game in their own time.

I have confidence that Leo, Stuart, Felipe and Robin McBride have the collective coaching 'nous' to beat whatever crew Sarries assemble to face us on April 4th in Aviva. I strongly believe that a noisy Leinster full house can provide a critical point of difference for such a game. But above all, I believe that the artificial nature of Saracens' season will have dawned fully on their players by that date and, by full time, they will realize they are playing their last ever meaningful game as a Club team.

I don't quite understand why "the box kick" gets continuously referenced. It was well executed and we regained possession. The problem - as I remember it and if I'm wrong please correct me - was James Ryan charged forward with the ball, got isolated and then pinged for holding on on the ground.

As I remember it; Rob Kearney chases, BV gathers. RK tackles him. Poor Billy being so small appears to be pinned as massive big Rob doesn't roll away. Garces gives dubious pen. WRT to the box kick; there was nothing wrong with the execution, but you'd have to question the decision. Time is up for halftime, your 10-3 up. Kick it out and go in with that.

[desperado]

I can't remember who said it but some journalist mentioned recently that Lancaster was annoyed with Sexton after that game because he didn't implement the game plan that they'd devised. IIRC the talk beforehand was that we needed to be brave with our passing to get outside their blitz defence but tightened up too much so suspect it may have been related to that.

I can't get over the reaction to the figures from the Saracens report, they seem to be getting an awful lot of sympathy on twitter. People seem to think it's not that bad on the basis that they originally thought that the figure of £2m was per season as opposed to in total...two of the three seasons were around £1m over FFS! PR have done a terrible job of explaining things though and that hasn't helped.

Re your point about non implementation of the plan.
Two points.
Maybe Sexton wasn't able to implement the plan.
If Sexton wasn't able to implement the plan then Leocaster's failure to react bears some scrutiny.
Perhaps, we'll never know, if Leocaster had subbed Byrne on sooner then the iceberg might have been avoided.

You really have it in for Sexton OS, and predicting his demise. Byrne never came on btw. I think Byrne has never lost in Europe? Neither did Hugh O'S by the way, yes Hugh was on the bench. Another plus I believe that will help us (if they stay injury free) is we'll have an improved bench from 2019.

[Theleinsterlad]

IMO, our problems in Newcastle related exclusively to the power of the Sarries' front-five. They lost a Prop, then another but their scrum got stronger and more dominant. Yes, we made mistakes, notably a badly executed box kick when the clock was in the red just before half-time, but the essential shortcoming was the power of their front five which meant we were unable to impose pressure on them.

Not a lot has changed since Newcastle - but hopefully enough of those marginal gains will be sufficiently in our favour to alter the outcome.

In my view those gains are:
1. The significant international experience gained by James Ryan & Andrew Porter:
2. The advent of Ronan Kelleher as one of our potential hookers;
3. The increased experience of Peter Dooley as a front-line LHP;
4. Luke McGrath's improved understanding & execution in increasing our tempo:
5. The experience of the entire Squad who played Sarries in Newcastle and the lessons they learned as to how Sarries imposed themselves on us in the 2nd half.

Exeter Chiefs, with perhaps the best PRL coaching brain of Rob Baxter, have gradually learned how to play against and beat Sarries in important matches. They learned from each of their games over the past four years what are the vital aspects and they now execute their own game in their own time.

I have confidence that Leo, Stuart, Felipe and Robin McBride have the collective coaching 'nous' to beat whatever crew Sarries assemble to face us on April 4th in Aviva. I strongly believe that a noisy Leinster full house can provide a critical point of difference for such a game. But above all, I believe that the artificial nature of Saracens' season will have dawned fully on their players by that date and, by full time, they will realize they are playing their last ever meaningful game as a Club team.

I think we can say that our B & C teams have improved significantly since last year. Its much harder to say confidently that our A team has. Because it just hasn't been tested. Potentially our only back line change is Dave K in for Robbie K and a positional switch for Larmour. Is Van der FLier and Dorris (or Deegan) significantly better than SOB and Conan? For all Dooleys great form, is he better than Jack McGrath? I'd grant you that Kelleher & Porter look an improvement over Tracey & Bent and the 2nd half was when our bench was needed most.
From a Saracens POV only the absence of Billy V (if he is still injured) is a significant blow to them. As for playing in the Aviva, hopefully it gives us a boost, but I can't see it having a negative impact on them. Many were part of the winning England team last year and beat Munster in a SF in 2018 (or maybe 17?). I think you're last point is entirely valid, but its not possible to say whether it will be a negative or positive till the day itself.
We can definitely win but its the toughest game we have faced since the away SF in Toulon. We could do without the trip to SA in the preceding 2 weeks. (that will definitely test the B & C team).
Its got me very nervous.....G'wan Leinster

I know I’m going to be fired on for saying this, but I really feel SOB offered us nothing in the final compared to what he used to do. I think our back row will be much better this time around and will have a much greater impact. Conan was good but I think Deegan can offer go forward ball that not many others can do at present (I know some would prefer Doris as an all rounder)

[Oldschool]

I can't remember who said it but some journalist mentioned recently that Lancaster was annoyed with Sexton after that game because he didn't implement the game plan that they'd devised. IIRC the talk beforehand was that we needed to be brave with our passing to get outside their blitz defence but tightened up too much so suspect it may have been related to that.

I can't get over the reaction to the figures from the Saracens report, they seem to be getting an awful lot of sympathy on twitter. People seem to think it's not that bad on the basis that they originally thought that the figure of £2m was per season as opposed to in total...two of the three seasons were around £1m over FFS! PR have done a terrible job of explaining things though and that hasn't helped.

Re your point about non implementation of the plan.
Two points.
Maybe Sexton wasn't able to implement the plan.
If Sexton wasn't able to implement the plan then Leocaster's failure to react bears some scrutiny.
Perhaps, we'll never know, if Leocaster had subbed Byrne on sooner then the iceberg might have been avoided.

You really have it in for Sexton OS, and predicting his demise. Byrne never came on btw. I think Byrne has never lost in Europe? Neither did Hugh O'S by the way, yes Hugh was on the bench. Another plus I believe that will help us (if they stay injury free) is we'll have an improved bench from 2019.

No I don't.
But you didn't give your explanation.
As for Byrne not being subbed on really does beg the question, given the circumstances, why wasn't he subbed on?
Given the fact that the plan wasn't being implemented!

[fourthirtythree]

Shocking to think that the coaches thought Sexton wad the better player, playing above the standard of Byrne.

Absolutely shocking.

I'm with Hansen om the front five.

[Oldschool]

Shocking to think that the coaches thought Sexton wad the better player, playing above the standard of Byrne.

Absolutely shocking.

I'm with Hansen om the front five.

More shocking that a player didn't implement the plan or wasn't capable of implementing the plan and the coaches watched and did nothing.
At least we agree that there is something shocking about this.

[jimbobjoe]

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face

[Twist]

Just on the SA mini tour before this game, it might not do us any harm to lose a game on that trip. Having an unbeaten record going into this QF would be more pressure, just another thing to lose.

A defeat might give us something to react against too, although I don't think we'll lack for motivation either way. I just think this winning run could become a bit of a millstone.

[Theleinsterlad]

In fairness Leinster played really well in the 1st half and this season they have gone into overdrive on score success once in the red zone. The two areas that needed to improve post champions final was red zone completions and defence and I think on both we are better this year. Add to that that I agree with another poster that unless injury hit, we should have a better overall 23 for this game than last season

[Oldschool]

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face

At which point you change the plan.
Plan B imho is almost by definition "Use the bench".