Leinster v Salarysins

[Twist]

I love the way people get all het up about situations they know fock all about

You expect me to put energy into my actual problems instead? Get real. That would mean facing them.

[Oldschool]

I love the way people get all het up about situations they know fock all about

Is that not the whole point of fora.
To calm down people, who are uninformed about situations, by informing them so that they no longer know fock all about said situations.

[johng]

No. The point is that none of us know what went on between any ex Leinster player, the IRFU and the respective provinces

All 5 parties were acting out of self interest. The player, his agent, the IRFU, Leinster and Ulster/Munster.

It is a professional sport. Sh1t happens.

Unless you were sitting at the table when the deals were trashed out you have no clue on which to base your outrage.

We all want to keep all the good players at Leinster but they can't all stay. If they do we stagnate and younger players can't come through.

Being still pissed off about a player who is gone more than a few weeks is like being pissed off at the tide for ruining your sandcastle. i.e. a waste of your time.

[Dave Cahill]

Being still pissed off about a player who is gone more than a few weeks is like being pissed off at the tide for ruining your sandcastle. i.e. a waste of your time.

We went to Doonbeg for our summer holidays in 1979 and I made the most amazing sandcastle on the beach one day and my brother smushed it and I'm still pissed off about it.

[johng]

Was that your brother Tidey McTideFace or the other one?

[riocard911]

"And so castles made of sand melt into the sea, eventually...." p.s. Hendrix lives!!!!

[Oldschool]

No. The point is that none of us know what went on between any ex Leinster player, the IRFU and the respective provinces

All 5 parties were acting out of self interest. The player, his agent, the IRFU, Leinster and Ulster/Munster.

It is a professional sport. Sh1t happens.

Unless you were sitting at the table when the deals were trashed out you have no clue on which to base your outrage.

We all want to keep all the good players at Leinster but they can't all stay. If they do we stagnate and younger players can't come through.

Being still pissed off about a player who is gone more than a few weeks is like being pissed off at the tide for ruining your sandcastle. i.e. a waste of your time.

My NDA prevents me from making any further comment on player contracts .

[Twist]

Saracens came from 12-0 to beat Saints 21-27


Saracens; Goode; Segun, Taylor, Tompkins, Lewington; M Vunipola, Wigglesworth; Barrington, Singleton, Lamositele, Skelton, Hunter-Hill, Isiekwe, Earl, Wray (capt)

Replacements: Woolstencroft, Carre, Koch, Kpoku, Clark, Day, Morris, Gallagher


Northampton: Mallinder; Tuala, Dingwall, Hutchinson, Naiyaravoro; Biggar, Reinach; Van Wyk, Fish, Hill, Coles, Bean, Wood, Tonks, Harrison (capt)

Replacements: Marshall, B Franks, O Franks, Glynn, Eadie, Taylor, Symons, Proctor

[JB1973]

Saracens came from 12-0 to beat Saints 21-27


Saracens; Goode; Segun, Taylor, Tompkins, Lewington; M Vunipola, Wigglesworth; Barrington, Singleton, Lamositele, Skelton, Hunter-Hill, Isiekwe, Earl, Wray (capt)

Replacements: Woolstencroft, Carre, Koch, Kpoku, Clark, Day, Morris, Gallagher


Northampton: Mallinder; Tuala, Dingwall, Hutchinson, Naiyaravoro; Biggar, Reinach; Van Wyk, Fish, Hill, Coles, Bean, Wood, Tonks, Harrison (capt)

Replacements: Marshall, B Franks, O Franks, Glynn, Eadie, Taylor, Symons, Proctor

Regardless of the salary cap issue, you do have to say they are a gritty side. Most teams in their place would have folded but they have still dug out some good wins this season

[Dexter]

Saracens came from 12-0 to beat Saints 21-27


Saracens; Goode; Segun, Taylor, Tompkins, Lewington; M Vunipola, Wigglesworth; Barrington, Singleton, Lamositele, Skelton, Hunter-Hill, Isiekwe, Earl, Wray (capt)

Replacements: Woolstencroft, Carre, Koch, Kpoku, Clark, Day, Morris, Gallagher


Northampton: Mallinder; Tuala, Dingwall, Hutchinson, Naiyaravoro; Biggar, Reinach; Van Wyk, Fish, Hill, Coles, Bean, Wood, Tonks, Harrison (capt)

Replacements: Marshall, B Franks, O Franks, Glynn, Eadie, Taylor, Symons, Proctor

Regardless of the salary cap issue, you do have to say they are a gritty side. Most teams in their place would have folded but they have still dug out some good wins this season

Sorry, we don't praise them on this forum, its just not done.
You're forgiven this once...

[MylesNaGapoleen]

Saracens came from 12-0 to beat Saints 21-27


Saracens; Goode; Segun, Taylor, Tompkins, Lewington; M Vunipola, Wigglesworth; Barrington, Singleton, Lamositele, Skelton, Hunter-Hill, Isiekwe, Earl, Wray (capt)

Replacements: Woolstencroft, Carre, Koch, Kpoku, Clark, Day, Morris, Gallagher


Northampton: Mallinder; Tuala, Dingwall, Hutchinson, Naiyaravoro; Biggar, Reinach; Van Wyk, Fish, Hill, Coles, Bean, Wood, Tonks, Harrison (capt)

Replacements: Marshall, B Franks, O Franks, Glynn, Eadie, Taylor, Symons, Proctor

Regardless of the salary cap issue, you do have to say they are a gritty side. Most teams in their place would have folded but they have still dug out some good wins this season

Isn't it precisely because they fiddled the salary cap that they are able to field such a strong side, with their main super salaried players on international duty?

[ronk]

Fair enough. You've a valid argument, I just see it differently. If somebody is going to be so unhappy in his/her job that they want to leave it, they're not going to do a good job. That has been my experience and anecdotally what I have heard about players in different teams in different sports.

An exodus doesn’t help morale either, it can unsettle players just as much. More so if affects the competitive position of the team, as is probably the case with Leinster. If too many players break contracts then it can create an expectation and encourage ill behaviour. All Matawalu had to do was go on holiday to get out of his contract. Do we want players forcing themselves out every time they get a good offer for a move?

IRFU involvement meant that players would have felt pressured to move. Certainly Carbery was put under huge pressure. Rewarding players who move can affect the morale of players who weren’t asked to move or said no. I think it also damaged Irish squad cohesion. A significant part of the success of the provinces was that we didn’t poach each other’s front line players, as was common in England.

I have a lot of time for McGrath and I respect his decision, but he was settled for his whole career sharing duties with Healy and he made the Lions. Jordi and Joey leave and he’s breaking contract too a year later.

The success rate for these moves for player and country is shocking. Carbery, Murphy, McGrath and McCarthy have all diminished in international standing.

[blockhead]

Bomber will be staying in Dublin during the South African tour to coach the Heino boys. No suprises there.

[Jonny tight lips]

Josh Murphy is having a hell of a season, he mightn’t be the most fashionable player but I’d have him in contention to start this one.

[hugonaut]

Fair enough. You've a valid argument, I just see it differently. If somebody is going to be so unhappy in his/her job that they want to leave it, they're not going to do a good job. That has been my experience and anecdotally what I have heard about players in different teams in different sports.

An exodus doesn’t help morale either, it can unsettle players just as much. More so if affects the competitive position of the team, as is probably the case with Leinster. If too many players break contracts then it can create an expectation and encourage ill behaviour. All Matawalu had to do was go on holiday to get out of his contract. Do we want players forcing themselves out every time they get a good offer for a move?

IRFU involvement meant that players would have felt pressured to move. Certainly Carbery was put under huge pressure. Rewarding players who move can affect the morale of players who weren’t asked to move or said no. I think it also damaged Irish squad cohesion. A significant part of the success of the provinces was that we didn’t poach each other’s front line players, as was common in England.

I have a lot of time for McGrath and I respect his decision, but he was settled for his whole career sharing duties with Healy and he made the Lions. Jordi and Joey leave and he’s breaking contract too a year later.

The success rate for these moves for player and country is shocking. Carbery, Murphy, McGrath and McCarthy have all diminished in international standing.

Most players don't want to leave Leinster. The province have an outstanding coaching set-up, great facilities, strong ethos and are as successful as they come – 19 wins out of 19 games doesn't lie.

Any talented kid who wants to be a pro rugby player within Leinster wants to be a Leinster pro rugby player. Anything else is second best. It's not like the NFL, where players just want to get in the league. Players want to play for Leinster first and foremost.

One of the major reasons why the provincial set-ups have been so successful is because their sense of identity. That sounds like an intangible and something that one says when it suits one's argument, but the obvious truth of it comes in comparing their success versus the Welsh regions. Rugby is way bigger in Wales than in Ireland – it's their national game – but their identities of their pro teams are all cobbled together and insecure, and there is f*ck all sense of connection between players, fans and organisations. There's no sense of representation or heritage or tribalism. Their whole professional rugby set-up has shaky foundations as a result.

Some players get to the stage in their career where they want to play more frequently or earn more money - guys like Madser, Jack McGrath, Jordi or Reider. That's their prerogative and it is totally legitimate. They all made their contribution to the province and more than paid back the time and effort that people spent on helping to get them to that position.

Playing this sport demands courage. It's a brutal game, and serious injuries and the pain that goes with them are commonplace. It is also a game that relies heavily on teamwork, and the fact that you have to have trust in the player beside you and have their trust in turn. You can't be an effective player without that sense of commitment. If you're just going to phone it in, you'll be spotted by halftime. There's no point carrying players who don't want to play for you anymore.

Leo is by some distance the most progressive and far-sighted selector in top tier NH rugby and nobody gets sidelined accidentally or frozen out. He's got a plan for each player under his remit. If it's not working out for them at Leinster and their form isn't competitive enough to get into teams, he doesn't hold on to them in case of emergency – he goes out of his way to accommodate loan moves [viz. Bryan Byrne, Ian Nagle, Tom Daly].

And finally, when you say that "the success rate is shocking", I presume you mean shocking as in sh*te rather than shocking as in surprising. If you can't get selected ahead of a guy at provincial level, why do you think you'd get selected ahead of him at test level? Because everyone's agin you?

[riocard911]

Ronk:

"Rewarding players who move can affect the morale of players who weren’t asked to move or said no. I think it also damaged Irish squad cohesion."

Of the latter point I am absolutely convinced. Glad to see I'm not the only one.

[JB1973]

Saracens came from 12-0 to beat Saints 21-27


Saracens; Goode; Segun, Taylor, Tompkins, Lewington; M Vunipola, Wigglesworth; Barrington, Singleton, Lamositele, Skelton, Hunter-Hill, Isiekwe, Earl, Wray (capt)

Replacements: Woolstencroft, Carre, Koch, Kpoku, Clark, Day, Morris, Gallagher


Northampton: Mallinder; Tuala, Dingwall, Hutchinson, Naiyaravoro; Biggar, Reinach; Van Wyk, Fish, Hill, Coles, Bean, Wood, Tonks, Harrison (capt)

Replacements: Marshall, B Franks, O Franks, Glynn, Eadie, Taylor, Symons, Proctor

Regardless of the salary cap issue, you do have to say they are a gritty side. Most teams in their place would have folded but they have still dug out some good wins this season

Isn't it precisely because they fiddled the salary cap that they are able to field such a strong side, with their main super salaried players on international duty?

Valid point but lots of sides in sport spend a fortune and don't always have the silver wear to back it up

I watched the highlights yesterday and they scored 14 points when Northampton were down to 13 men (one of them should have been a red tbh) and the saints blew two really good chances at the end

No way leinster would have made that many mistakes in key parts of the game

As for Baird, the guy is so fast and such a talented footballer he looks like he could play lock 6 or 8, I know your fully loaded in the backrow but that's certainly an option for you going forward

A back 5 of any combination of Ryan Baird Fardy Degan/Doris and Jdf/leavy would be a seriously impressive unit who between them tick every box you need and that's the one I would try to get on the pitch vs sarries . And that's not a knock on Conan /Ruddock/Toner/Murphy who are all very good players in their own right

[The Doc]

No way leinster would have made that many mistakes in key parts of the game

That may be true but I think the concern in these parts is that (a) the team playing the Premiership these days is not the team we will be playing and between now and then they will give nothing away for our video analysis and (b) the only thing their coaching and analysis teams are working on is us - and they are getting information.

This nervousness is only going to get worse between now and then

[LeinsterLeader]

I spoke to Gary Ringrose on Friday and asked him did he think he would be back in time for the QF and he said........ "Definitely".

I asked him to pinky-swear on it, but he declined

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Ronk:

"Rewarding players who move can affect the morale of players who weren’t asked to move or said no. I think it also damaged Irish squad cohesion."

Of the latter point I am absolutely convinced. Glad to see I'm not the only one.

How so? I'd say Joey is the only one relevant to that and he's been injured anyway.

I'm a big believer in everything Hugo said about the environment making all Leinster players better but not sure how cohesion comes into it.

For me it's about getting the balance right of where and why players are asked to move and we need to learn lessons from what's happened so far. I think there's merit in some players leaving but hate Nucifora's apparent vision of just treating Irish rugby like a seating plan for a wedding.

Slight tangent but I'm also getting uncomfortable with the Ireland team being so reliant on Leinster. For all the talk of Ireland v England essentially being Leinster v Saracens, the England team has far more diversity in the team. From the game last week the back row and half backs came from other clubs. Yes we play a different style to Leinster but my problem with that is that we aren't particularly tested week to week but also still worry about bigger packs in certain games, so for the guts of our team to have to raise their game at international level is a big ask. I don't have a solution to this btw, but my point is just that you'd like for the slight deficiencies in Leinster's team to be compensated for elsewhere (a physical 7 or Murray in top form for example) but when that's not there we can't really expect Leinster's dominance to translate to international level.