Leinster v Salarysins

[joooooe]

Pick holes in everything but we got so badly mauled in the scrum it's pretty irrelevant. Testament to the lads to keep it that close with no scrum.

When a team has a scrum as dominant as Saracens' yesterday they will nearly always win. Shades of Ireland v England in 2008 about it. I can't remember an example of a team winning despite being destroyed in almost every scrum.

However, we didn't help ourselves: Connors and Doris were clearly told to be alert to the quick break from 8 and/or to put pressure on 10. Look at the two scrums just before half time right on half way. Connors has an arm draped over the secondrow and is standing straight up looking to see will Billy have a rumble. However, he was never going to. Opposite him, the Saracens man has a tight bind and has his shoulder driving right under the arse of the tighthead. That scrum was always going to be milked for a penalty. When we're already going backwards having a 6 man scrum defend against 8 is impossible.

[joooooe]

McGrath put us under a lot of pressure

RIP, Jack Charlton.

[lummix]

We were very nieve today, first half was crying out for us to play low risk rugby and play for field position. Possession for possessions sake is not a good thing. Sexton didn't control the game at all which is becoming a regular occurrence against the top teams.

The pack got beaten up, we need to switch porter back to loose head to get a bulkier more powerful front row once furlong is back, badly miss a fit dan leavy, baird matched the physicality when he came on. I wonder can dev still mix it against the elite teams.

[Twist]

We were very nieve today, first half was crying out for us to play low risk rugby and play for field position. Possession for possessions sake is not a good thing. Sexton didn't control the game at all which is becoming a regular occurrence against the top teams.

The pack got beaten up, we need to switch porter back to loose head to get a bulkier more powerful front row once furlong is back, badly miss a fit dan leavy, baird matched the physicality when he came on. I wonder can dev still mix it against the elite teams.

On the bulkier front row thing - I agree. If only we had a young prospect like Roman Salanoa coming through

I said before the game I thought we looked under-powered up front and on the bench. Well I was wrong about Baird, he was up to doing what we asked of him. But we definitely need a bit more heft. I think we’re in danger of losing, not just to Saracens, but even to a pack like Munster when they have Snyman, Knox, Kleyn and Beirne up front in the next season or two.

[carlow man]

We were very nieve today, first half was crying out for us to play low risk rugby and play for field position. Possession for possessions sake is not a good thing. Sexton didn't control the game at all which is becoming a regular occurrence against the top teams.

The pack got beaten up, we need to switch porter back to loose head to get a bulkier more powerful front row once furlong is back, badly miss a fit dan leavy, baird matched the physicality when he came on. I wonder can dev still mix it against the elite teams.

Toner cant mix it in terms of physicality against saracens. He makes no impact. Baird was a notable step up when he came on. You need brute force and a nasty edge when you play teams like sarries. Toner has never brought that. He's good at the other stuff but yesterday him, Cronin and healy looked like old men.

[Up Wexford]

Pick holes in everything but we got so badly mauled in the scrum it's pretty irrelevant. Testament to the lads to keep it that close with no scrum.

When a team has a scrum as dominant as Saracens' yesterday they will nearly always win. Shades of Ireland v England in 2008 about it. I can't remember an example of a team winning despite being destroyed in almost every scrum.

However, we didn't help ourselves: Connors and Doris were clearly told to be alert to the quick break from 8 and/or to put pressure on 10. Look at the two scrums just before half time right in half way. Connors has an arm draped over the secondrow and is standing straight up looking to see will Billy have a rumble. However, he was never going to. Opposite him, the Saracens man has a right bind and has his shoulder driving right under the arse of the tighthead. That scrum was always going to be milked for a penalty. When we're already going backwards having a 6 man scrum defend against 8 is impossible.

This is the issue with the Connors selection - they didnt use Vinuopla so Will was taken out of the game also, and he couldnt offer more around the park. James Ryan is excellent but he cant do it all on his own. We need a huge destructive carrier - and maybe for only 2 games a season! We can handle everything except the biggest teams with a top top quality pack. (both Leinster and Ireland.) For all his faults Sean O Brien was that guy, Furlong can do it, ditto Conan on occasion but everything else has to go right too. Perhaps Porter can fulfil this role in the future.

Which brings us on to the scrum. You're totally right, and I emphasise it was such a weird, unique, cr@p, penalty ridden game but at the end of the day with our scrum functioning the way it did most other analysis and adjustments are rendered pointless.(that wont stop us of course ) but why has a truly excellent Leinster scrum been milled? Koch and Vinupola were totally superb in the front row but we had been excellent against similar packs in the past. Someone here spotted Mako totally ruining Ports illegally every time the ref was on the other side - would Furlong have put up with the bullshit? The ref seemed to focus the blame on Cronin in the first half but the situation didnt change when Kelleher came on.

In his post match interview, Leo really emphasised that he found the players to be "spooked" and the "sense of occasion" got to them. We could see that they were absolutey not primed to play in the warm ups and first 40. In contrast, Sarries were ice cold and unflappable, and once the penalties accrued and circumstances of the game came to them they could play the way they wanted. I thought it was very interesting that this what Leo, out of all the things that went wrong yesterday, picked up on.

[ronk]

We were very nieve today, first half was crying out for us to play low risk rugby and play for field position. Possession for possessions sake is not a good thing. Sexton didn't control the game at all which is becoming a regular occurrence against the top teams.

The pack got beaten up, we need to switch porter back to loose head to get a bulkier more powerful front row once furlong is back, badly miss a fit dan leavy, baird matched the physicality when he came on. I wonder can dev still mix it against the elite teams.

Toner cant mix it in terms of physicality against saracens. He makes no impact. Baird was a notable step up when he came on. You need brute force and a nasty edge when you play teams like sarries. Toner has never brought that. He's good at the other stuff but yesterday him, Cronin and healy looked like old men.

Saracens started a lock who came out of retirement. We didn’t lose because we have an old team

[carlow man]

I never said we had an old team. I said yesterday those 3 looked like old men. The fact is they are all past their prime, Healy in particular. As soon as Cronin loses his pace he will be the same. Dev has always kept himself in great shape and will be needed for the pro 14 and a few group games but we all know by now that when we play against huge packs who turn it into an arm wrestle the dev gets left behind.

[Chengleng1]

Sarries were so impressively relentless, everything we did was under pressure. Literally right from the kick off. We had lot of handling error turnovers and poor maul return but cant look past the utter dominance at scrum time as the major factor in the game. We've seen this play out now for both ireland and leinster, i struggle to see what we can do to counter or overcome it with out going to the market. Is it a lot it just down to them being bigger guys?? I dont think we're in Tom Court in Twickenham territory, we have quality, international props, and lots of experience too. A fit Tadhgy Furlong would have helped no doubt, but dont if it would have made a difference. Andrew Porter was the only 1 of our 8 that was bigger/heavier than his opposite number. Can technique/approach alone over come this? I think Salanoa may have been pilot project to counter.
Have seen it said above that maybe Doris and Connors, were more concerned watching Billy V break than pushing, would suggest we were prepared to concede there. Odd tactic to stick with, given the way the way the setup piece was going. Really, we were fortunate to avoid a yellow card which could have put us on track for a real hiding.
Tangental point, also raised above is leadership and personality in the scrum. Didnt notice anyone even attempt to speak to the ref to plead our case or suggest looking at them driving in like you would imagine one of Rhys or Fardy would have done if there. It an intangible thing really, but would like to see someone emerge as an obvious personality or leader of the pack like POC or AWJ or even George yesterday. Dont seem like we have the personalities for that, not yet anyway.

Very disappointing finish, but we go again. New format next season poses a new challenge and hopefully lessons to learn. Shame not to get to give the guys leaving/finishing a send off.

In peacetime, all of this would have been vented over post-game beers, albeit less eloquently.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

[carlow man]

Completely agree. We are too nice. We should have been in the refs ear asking what we needed to do and im astounded why not one senior player did not ask the ref why was there not a yellow card for the high hit on Sexton? The same player who should have been in the bin then turned the ball over minutes later. Why, when they repeatedly pulled attacking mauls down and were then offside from the advantage, did none of our players get on to the ref and ask him why no one was getting a warning or a yellow?

[blaker]

I think we are underplaying George’s scrummaging power. He’s a beast and has been central to flaying Irish scrums a few times - the series of scrums where he had Porter on toast in Twickenham last year spring to mind.

What’s really annoying (for me) about this is that We could / should have won despite XYZ if only one or two things go differently;
- scrum obviously - if that has functioned I still think we win
- early porter and sexton penalties were harsh and the only examples of that offence being called in the game when many others looked similar.
- sexton short kick off after 1 penno leading to scrum penno and another 3 points straight away.

- McGraths poxy pass compounded by Larmour for 3 points (not pressured into it - our own errors)
- Sexton and Henshaw going off as we had the big momentum; killer
- Rhodes 2 interventions to turn the momentum and put them way downfield
- persisting with trying to maul off front of the line out ball when they had it covered all day - one time we faked away from it lead to an unopposed score

Sarries were unequivocally the better team and if my aunty has b*%&!x etc but the game is in the margins....

Baird, Kelleher and JGP has great impact but not sure how much was down to them v the different game they entered v the first half.

I get the calls for changes, and in reality Cronin and Toner (and maybe Sexton) were probably getting phased out in the coming season anyway. I think our bigger / biggest problem is the new rules; they will very materially undermine our way of playing and probably alter some career trajectories. We have a lot to think about there.

Editing to add this link which really underlines how self inflicted the first half was
https://www.the42.ie/analysis-leinster- ... =shortlink

[wixfjord]

Nearly lost my sh!t shouting at the screen after Larmour did this.

https://twitter.com/murray_kinsella/sta ... 52642?s=21

Killed the overlap through greed and then attempted a crazy back of the hand offload.

He has a good bit to go as a 15.

I wonder is Keenan at 15 and Larmour at 14 a better mix?
Hugo was really solid again yesterday btw. One of the breakout stars this season.

[cormac]

I do wonder if Porter's lack of experience of starting tight-head came back to bite him and Leinster in the ass yesterday. Of his 66 appearances for Leinster 44 of them have been off the bench, with 21 starts at tight-head (four of them since the restart last month). If you include Ireland caps yesterday was only his 25th start at tight-head*. He looked a bit lost in the scrum and his inability to counter Vunipola and Barrington's angling in was a large part of our struggles at scrum-time IMO. I'm sure the coaches will be working on it with him but he's still got a lot of learning to do in the position.

* Michael Bent has started more games at tight-head in the last three season than Porter, and no I'm not suggesting he should have started yesterday.

[blaker]

I wouldn’t have started Bent either, and don’t think changing Porter would have solved everything, but leaving him on until 74th minute seems a bit odd. Unless you’re certain bent will be worse in the scrum then an improvement there would have been worth the drop around the pitch

[OTT]

This is deadly this new thing that Saracens didn’t use Billy Vunipola. They did, he carried nearly as much ball as the rest of their pack put together. He had 12 carries and made 13 meters. We played him out of the game. He was the man of the match 16 months ago in Newcastle.

Be annoyed, be angry but stop just making sh!t up to suit a narrative.

They destroyed us in the scrum which gave them them all the opportunities they needed to win the game despite never threatening our line other then the try they scored. It’s devastating but that is sport they got an advantage in an area and it won them the game, harsh lesson that we must learn from.

This team/group over the last 4 years have always come back stronger from their bad days, I think we will again. I have no reason to think we are now sh!t. What a season it’s been 23-1. Our expectations are absolutely massive to such an extent that when we lose a game it’s all doom and gloom. What a Lucky time to be a Leinster supporter.

[Dave Cahill]

I wonder is Keenan at 15 and Larmour at 14 a better mix?
Hugo was really solid again yesterday btw. One of the breakout stars this season.

Well it can't be worse!

Larmour at full back is over. We need to find a full back. And in the interim we need to find out if a certain someone fancies one more season

[Blueberry]

Watched it back and the scary thing is Saracens did nothing for 80 minutes (bar the Goode try), won their scrums and clocked up penalties. They scrummed as an 8 and we had two flankers heads up looking for Billy so it 8 v 6. We started going backwards in every scrum within a couple of seconds everytime, men v boys and Sarries really had to do nothing else.

Needed a bigger Brad Thorn esq personality in there in short tell the 8 to cop on and bloody push. One has to question coaching as well. Almost as if it was taken that the scrum would be okay and heck Billy is the one danger. He did nothing all game and didn't have to.

Hugely disappointing game even on watch back but you have to hand it to Sarries, found a weakness ,couldn't believe how easy and repeatable it was and just got on with it.

Hard to comprehend how bad it was and we need to take it in hand as it was our Tom Court moment....between the line out yips in earlier games and now this its very much a case of basic stuff and we have to be better in these areas or we won't win another star anytime soon.

[Up Wexford]

This is deadly this new thing that Saracens didn’t use Billy Vunipola. They did, he carried nearly as much ball as the rest of their pack put together. He had 12 carries and made 13 meters. We played him out of the game. He was the man of the match 16 months ago in Newcastle.

Be annoyed, be angry but stop just making sh!t up to suit a narrative.

They destroyed us in the scrum which gave them them all the opportunities they needed to win the game despite never threatening our line other then the try they scored. It’s devastating but that is sport they got an advantage in an area and it won them the game, harsh lesson that we must learn from.

This team/group over the last 4 years have always come back stronger from their bad days, I think we will again. I have no reason to think we are now sh!t. What a season it’s been 23-1. Our expectations are absolutely massive to such an extent that when we lose a game it’s all doom and gloom. What a Lucky time to be a Leinster supporter.

Mea cupla on the Billy V thing, cant bring myself to watch it back but in the moment he seemed to have a poor game. But of course you're correct, he was quiet because we made him quiet.

And to be clear I am in no way out on this team (unlike certain other countymen ) - there is really only one or two teams better than us in the world - But but but - irish rugby in general has a blind spot to where it actually is and it is only in the aftermath of such bruising defeats that the curtain is pulled back before the blue tinted glasses come back on in two weeks time and we basically have two starting XV's to win all competitions

The facts are that 16-20 are our salad days - Leo and Lancanster, for me the best coach in the world, Grand Slam winners, our strongest squad - and unfortunately over that spell its 2-1 to Saracens, they were best in Europe and we were second best. The win yesterday would have changed that entirely and thats what rankles most.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I think we are underplaying George’s scrummaging power. He’s a beast and has been central to flaying Irish scrums a few times - the series of scrums where he had Porter on toast in Twickenham last year spring to mind.

What’s really annoying (for me) about this is that We could / should have won despite XYZ if only one or two things go differently;
- scrum obviously - if that has functioned I still think we win
- early porter and sexton penalties were harsh and the only examples of that offence being called in the game when many others looked similar.
- sexton short kick off after 1 penno leading to scrum penno and another 3 points straight away.

- McGraths poxy pass compounded by Larmour for 3 points (not pressured into it - our own errors)
- Sexton and Henshaw going off as we had the big momentum; killer
- Rhodes 2 interventions to turn the momentum and put them way downfield
- persisting with trying to maul off front of the line out ball when they had it covered all day - one time we faked away from it lead to an unopposed score

Sarries were unequivocally the better team and if my aunty has b*%&!x etc but the game is in the margins....

Baird, Kelleher and JGP has great impact but not sure how much was down to them v the different game they entered v the first half.

I get the calls for changes, and in reality Cronin and Toner (and maybe Sexton) were probably getting phased out in the coming season anyway. I think our bigger / biggest problem is the new rules; they will very materially undermine our way of playing and probably alter some career trajectories. We have a lot to think about there.

Editing to add this link which really underlines how self inflicted the first half was
https://www.the42.ie/analysis-leinster- ... =shortlink

Great post.

The frustrating thing for me in line with some of this and what OTT said was that I thought we were more than a match for them physically around the park. We obviously got destroyed in the scrum but by and large we defended them comfortably, they couldn’t get a rumble on the way they usually do, and I always felt like we could make yards with the ball. Sure they had some defensive sets where we didn’t get anywhere (partly caused by Luke not being in sync with our carriers) but it didn’t feel like one of those games where we had no chance of making yards and the second half was proof of that.

Being a small bit smarter would have been made a huge difference, even just that three points we turned down.

[Up Wexford]

I think we are underplaying George’s scrummaging power. He’s a beast and has been central to flaying Irish scrums a few times - the series of scrums where he had Porter on toast in Twickenham last year spring to mind.

What’s really annoying (for me) about this is that We could / should have won despite XYZ if only one or two things go differently;
- scrum obviously - if that has functioned I still think we win
- early porter and sexton penalties were harsh and the only examples of that offence being called in the game when many others looked similar.
- sexton short kick off after 1 penno leading to scrum penno and another 3 points straight away.

- McGraths poxy pass compounded by Larmour for 3 points (not pressured into it - our own errors)
- Sexton and Henshaw going off as we had the big momentum; killer
- Rhodes 2 interventions to turn the momentum and put them way downfield
- persisting with trying to maul off front of the line out ball when they had it covered all day - one time we faked away from it lead to an unopposed score

Sarries were unequivocally the better team and if my aunty has b*%&!x etc but the game is in the margins....

Baird, Kelleher and JGP has great impact but not sure how much was down to them v the different game they entered v the first half.

I get the calls for changes, and in reality Cronin and Toner (and maybe Sexton) were probably getting phased out in the coming season anyway. I think our bigger / biggest problem is the new rules; they will very materially undermine our way of playing and probably alter some career trajectories. We have a lot to think about there.

Editing to add this link which really underlines how self inflicted the first half was
https://www.the42.ie/analysis-leinster- ... =shortlink

Great post.

The frustrating thing for me in line with some of this and what OTT said was that I thought we were more than a match for them physically around the park. We obviously got destroyed in the scrum but by and large we defended them comfortably, they couldn’t get a rumble on the way they usually do, and I always felt like we could make yards with the ball. Sure they had some defensive sets where we didn’t get anywhere (partly caused by Luke not being in sync with our carriers) but it didn’t feel like one of those games where we had no chance of making yards and the second half was proof of that.

Being a small bit smarter would have been made a huge difference, even just that three points we turned down.

Have to agree. So much was tee'd up for us to beat them comfortably outside of us being a match for them on the pitch - no Farrell, relatively low stakes quarter final, squad decimated by fines, cheating, etc. So much had to go wrong for us, and it did. Sigh