Leinster v Salarysins

[Blueberry]

Munster I hear have offered to step into the breach and play Exeter citing de passion and de history, saying this would be the new miracle match.

[Up Wexford]

Latest scuttlebutt is we wanted Tadgh on for 40-50min, manage his back injury for the Saracens game but this was scuppered by IRFU who would not allow him play injured, pulled rank on his central contract. Ntt sure if anyone else is hearing this? Thats two Heinken cups Nuce has done us out of in two years so....

[ronk]

Latest scuttlebutt is we wanted Tadgh on for 40-50min, manage his back injury for the Saracens game but this was scuppered by IRFU who would not allow him play injured, pulled rank on his central contract. Ntt sure if anyone else is hearing this? Thats two Heinken cups Nuce has done us out of in two years so....

If that’s true it’s actually quite fair.

[Up Wexford]

I understand what you mean, they pay his contract etc etc, hes injured, shouldnt be near the pitch etc etc. But the facts are, we were done in because we played absolute sh!t for 40 mins and our scrum coundnt handle Saracens - arguably the worlds best tight head would have gone a long way to fixing that problem. And do you think that Leo and Stus plan was to play Furlong in such a way that he would be crippled after the game? The Leinster set up is the most professional club set up in world rugby.

I understand if you come down on the side of the IRFU, thats fair enough. But if we dont get our best players for the matches that really matter, well imagine how frustrating it is for the coaching set up.

If true, of course...

[riocard911]

What Exeter really think of Saracens: 'They won those titles by cheating'

In an exclusive extract from his new book, Robert Kitson reveals the true anger and dismay at the salary cap breaches by their arch rivals

** Main image: Exeter players look on as Owen Farrell lifts the trophy as he and his Saracens teammates celebrate beating Exeter 37–34 in the Premiership final in June 2019. Photograph: Darren Staples/PA Images **

Sun 11 Oct 2020 08.00 BST
The Guardian

Nothing lasts forever, not least in professional sport. Less than 72 hours after England had been hammered 32-12 by South Africa in the World Cup final in Tokyo in early November, a different kind of typhoon ripped through the UK newspapers. Premiership Rugby, following months of deliberation, announced that Saracens had been found guilty of breaching the salary cap regulations, fined them an unprecedented £5.36m and initially docked them 35 league points. They stopped short of stripping Sarries of their titles but with large sections of the game in uproar the points deduction was ultimately increased by a further 70 points to guarantee their relegation to the Championship.

Few tears were shed in the West Country and Rob Baxter, in particular, was less than sympathetic. Having spent hours poring over spreadsheets to try to work out how to build a competitive Premiership squad beneath the cap ceiling, Exeter’s director of rugby was unimpressed by the argument that Saracens were simply guilty of innocent naivety or muddled accounting.

“Everyone thought there was something wrong for a number of years. But that’s different to it being blatantly exposed. I don’t care what anybody says, it’s not been exposed as a little bit of an accident.

“Even the little bit they found, percentage-wise, makes an incredible difference within your squad. You’re never really needing to lose a player because you can spread the money around and keep everyone happy. People look at it and say: ‘That’s only four or five players.’ It’s not. Not at all. It means you can keep your players on a wage level where it’s not worth them moving to another club.

** Rob Baxter (right), the Exeter director of rugby, and the owner, Tony Rowe, look dejected after their defeat to Saracens in the 2019 Premiership final. Photograph: David Rogers/Getty Images **

“I’m not saying Saracens don’t do a lot of things well. They’re well coached and they get the importance of building a good team environment and having a good culture. But on top of that they get to do it with 30 better players than any other squad can put together. That’s the bit that has bugged me more than anything else. When I actually found out how deliberately it had been done and for how long … even then there was no apology, not even a hint of one.”

From the players’ perspective there was also a nagging sense of professional and personal loss: of potential earnings, bonuses and international recognition. Had Saracens adhered by the letter and spirit of the rules and not had such a stellar squad, would they have won all those trophies and harvested all those caps?

Don Armand, among the Exeter players regularly overlooked for international honours, also flagged up a significant human dimension. “We’d been sticking to the salary cap. That means you’re not getting as much money as you know some of their guys are getting. If you go to Sarries and you’ve got a coinvestment arrangement and your post-career is sorted, there is much less stress. You can just focus on your rugby and your fun trips away. It makes it a lot easier to focus on rugby day in, day out.”

When Armand looked around the Exeter dressing room, he was also reminded of those players who had left the club prematurely because the club, in order to stay under the cap, could not afford to keep everyone. “We wouldn’t necessarily have won those three finals we lost but if we had won a couple of them it would have benefited individuals who have subsequently left. They would have had a much better CV and their career-earning potential would have been much better, as has happened when a Saracens player has left to join a French side.

“There’s also a lot of Exeter guys who should have played for England and haven’t. I could name a few. Even those guys who have been in and out have lost out, not just on career-changing money but career-changing reputations. Those frustrations get brushed under the carpet publicly – from an individual perspective there’s a lot that people don’t see.”

** Dom Armand waits in the Sandy Park tunnel before the Premiership match between Exeter and Wasps in November 2019. Photograph: Alex Davidson/Getty Images **

On top of that, from Armand’s perspective, was something else hidden from the public gaze: the disappointment felt by the backroom staff. “There are so many dynamics that aren’t recognised. The people upstairs who work really hard in the ticket office, the community guys. We’re representing them all. No one ever feels sorry for them but they’re also affected. The more successful we are, the more successful the whole stadium is, the better their jobs are. It has a big knock-on effect.”

On top of all that, for Armand, was the simplest, most primal disappointment of all. “You’ll never be able to replace a Sunday all-day piss-up with your old mates in celebration of a final victory. The memories you make last for ever. It’s the things you can’t count that irritate me more than the money.”

Tony Rowe, on his squad’s behalf, was similarly upset and angry that Saracens had unfairly tilted the playing field. For a while, the Exeter chief executive declined to rule out legal action and even called for the authorities to go further. “Saracens should have their titles taken away. Their names should be taken off the Premiership trophy for the seasons they won it while being in breach of the cap.”

If anything, having absorbed the full details of Lord Myners’s exhaustive report into Saracens’ salary cap indiscretions, his views have subsequently hardened. “It’s proven – and the report’s there for everyone to read – that for the last three years they’ve been winning trophies they’ve cheated. We’re not saying we should have the trophies but they should not have their name on the trophy because they won those titles by cheating. We don’t want the trophy, but they shouldn’t have it.

“I’ve known some of our lads since they were 15. At the end of last season’s final they were broken and in tears. They got beaten fair and square, yes, but by a superior team that we couldn’t afford by staying within the salary cap. I’m massively disappointed for the lads.”

** Saracens’ chairman, Nigel Wray, celebrates with the Premiership trophy at Twickenham in June 2019, five months before the salary-cap revelations. Photograph: Andrew Fosker/Seconds Left/Shutterstock **

Rowe also argued that the Saracens chairman, Nigel Wray, should not necessarily have to shoulder all the blame for a situation that led Lord Myners to conclude it was “overwhelmingly clear … that trust has been damaged” across the English club game.

“Other people must have known what was going on. OK, they may have been told by Nigel and his advisers that it was above board, but they were kidding themselves. They still feel they’ve done nothing wrong. They’re not regretful at all.

“I’ve been involved in sport since my early 20s. How can someone congratulate themselves or slap each other on the back knowing you’ve fiddled the system to get there?”

As for those wondering if Exeter, the solitary Premiership club to have made a profit in the preceding financial year, were entirely above board themselves, Rowe had a crisp response ready. “I’m certain we’re within the salary cap. I wouldn’t be saying all this about Saracens if I wasn’t certain we play by the rules.”

The only real consolation was that Exeter would no longer need to worry about their rivals for the next two seasons, but their coaches were swift to warn their players not to assume the title was now a gimme. “It was the elephant in the room,” said Rob Hunter, the forwards coach. “We said: ‘Right, let’s make sure this is not a distraction. There’s still another 10 teams who all want to beat you.’”

It was time to start looking forwards, not back.

***

‘Surely you should have a bit of humility’: Exeter v Saracens, 29 December 2019

The lights are fast going out on Sarries: their quarterback Owen Farrell is sacked behind the gain line, their forwards are being driven backwards. When Nic White and Duncan Taylor tangle near the touchline, players from both sides rush in and a mass fracas takes place next to the advertising hoardings. The substituted Harry Williams, previously in the sin-bin, gets involved and is shown a red card by Wayne Barnes for his trouble.

Later, a different narrative emerges. The confrontation was significantly inflamed, according to the home players, by a comment directed at White by Billy Vunipola. In the view of England’s No 8, Sarries had hoisted the silverware when it really mattered and this result changed little. Baxter still argues the visitors were out of order: “When you see how disappointed our players have been and the things they’ve not had to celebrate and you then hear a Saracens player telling Nic White: ‘Unlucky, you haven’t got a Premiership winner’s medal,’ that sticks in the craw. That’s what some of their lads were saying. They were rubbing in the fact they were quite happy to cheat to win titles. If people had experienced that, they would really understand what it has been like.”

** Exeter celebrate as Jacques Vermeulen (hidden) dives over to score his side’s second try against Saracens in December 2019. Photograph: Dan Mullan/Getty Images **

Among Exeter’s players the widespread view is that Saracens have “a reputation of saying narky things when they lose”. Armand believes they have shown insufficient respect at times to him and his teammates. “It’s not necessarily their players’ fault but when they’ve won all those titles and been as gloaty as some of them have been … if you’ve been caught cheating and you know you’ve done it the wrong way and that cheating has helped you get those titles, surely you should have a bit of humility?”

- Exe Men: The Extraordinary Rise of Exeter Chiefs by Robert Kitson is published by Polaris on 26 November

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... y-cheating

p.s. Big Billy gone down further in my estimation ...

[Ruckedtobits]

That's great research to pull out those extracts. I've always considered the Chiefs owners and rugby management to be top line. Their players have generally been among the best coached and closest to their potential at the business end of the Season. It's very understandable why the excerpts listed above ring so truthfully.

[ronk]

What's with the starting brawls over insults and then telling tales about it in the media afterwards.

Should really be one or the other.

[Theleinsterlad]

What's with the starting brawls over insults and then telling tales about it in the media afterwards.

Should really be one or the other.

In fairness it ain’t so secret about how sarries players gloat, it’s been regularly picked up on tv. From your comment it would suggest that Exeter are the violators and sarries are the innocents.

[ronk]

What's with the starting brawls over insults and then telling tales about it in the media afterwards.

Should really be one or the other.

In fairness it ain’t so secret about how sarries players gloat, it’s been regularly picked up on tv. From your comment it would suggest that Exeter are the violators and sarries are the innocents.

Not innocent, also guilty.

Saracens did the same against Munster. George tried to attack the team dr and also complained about the comment.

If the option of complaining was available then there’s no case for the use of violence. It’s disappointing that the rugby authorities aren’t doing a better job of protecting the image of the game.

[blockhead]

This is an internal English matter afaic. But the lack of remorse from Saracens, top to bottom, must be galling to Exeter who are the real victims of all this.
And Billy Vuniploa will have to renounce those Premiership medals if he ever wants to enter the kingdom of heaven.

[mildlyinterested]

Shame Leinster couldn't get it done when it counted against Saracens.

[riocard911]

Ronk: "It’s disappointing that the rugby authorities aren’t doing a better job of protecting the image of the game."

Agree wholeheartedly. Players getting in verbal digs at various stages in the game - in particular scrums - is unavoidable. However the public gloating over and denigration of the opposition, that Saracens are the leading proponents of in world rugby by a country mile, has no place in the game, IMO. It's a blight in fact. That World Rugby and/or the RFU haven't done something about it is a disgrace and makes a total joke of rugby's aspirations to moral or ethical standards. I'd ****in love the likes of AW Jones or Duane Vermeulen to deck Big Billy or Jamie George live on TV, when they're talking trash. Maybe then the authorities will finally act.

[Oldschool]

Ronk: "It’s disappointing that the rugby authorities aren’t doing a better job of protecting the image of the game."

Agree wholeheartedly. Players getting in verbal digs at various stages in the game - in particular scrums - is unavoidable. However the public gloating over and denigration of the opposition, that Saracens are the leading proponents of in world rugby by a country mile, has no place in the game, IMO. It's a blight in fact. That World Rugby and/or the RFU haven't done something about it is a disgrace and makes a total joke of rugby's aspirations to moral or ethical standards. I'd ****in love the likes of AW Jones or Duane Vermeulen to deck Big Billy or Jamie George live on TV, when they're talking trash. Maybe then the authorities will finally act.

You left the important bit out.
"If and when the result was no longer in doubt"
And ideally within hearing distance of the ref mic.

[Theleinsterlad]

Ronk: "It’s disappointing that the rugby authorities aren’t doing a better job of protecting the image of the game."

Agree wholeheartedly. Players getting in verbal digs at various stages in the game - in particular scrums - is unavoidable. However the public gloating over and denigration of the opposition, that Saracens are the leading proponents of in world rugby by a country mile, has no place in the game, IMO. It's a blight in fact. That World Rugby and/or the RFU haven't done something about it is a disgrace and makes a total joke of rugby's aspirations to moral or ethical standards. I'd ****in love the likes of AW Jones or Duane Vermeulen to deck Big Billy or Jamie George live on TV, when they're talking trash. Maybe then the authorities will finally act.

You left the important bit out.
"If and when the result was no longer in doubt"
And ideally within hearing distance of the ref mic.

+1 to that

[Peg Leg]

Ronk: "It’s disappointing that the rugby authorities aren’t doing a better job of protecting the image of the game."

That... the RFU haven't done something about it is a disgrace and makes a total joke of rugby's aspirations to moral or ethical standards.

I would say being a dick is a 'core value' under the current regime.

[outcast eddie]

Vincent Koch to leave Saracens

To my mind they last beat us mostly because we didn't have Tadhg and they had Koch

This looks like a big loss for them and his presence at Wasps will be diluted by the mediocrity elsewhere in their squad.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/59596425

[hugonaut]

Vincent Koch to leave Saracens

To my mind they last beat us mostly because we didn't have Tadhg and they had Koch

This looks like a big loss for them and his presence at Wasps will be diluted by the mediocrity elsewhere in their squad.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/59596425

I think he's the best tighthead scrummager in the world. He's not as good a player as Tadhg, but he is an absolutely awesome scrummager. Saracens won't be able to replace him.

[ronk]

Yeah, he won a lot in only a few years with a scrum that destroyed scrums that other teams were afraid of.

I always expected him to leave Saracens eventually with their salary cap troubles.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Vincent Koch to leave Saracens

To my mind they last beat us mostly because we didn't have Tadhg and they had Koch

This looks like a big loss for them and his presence at Wasps will be diluted by the mediocrity elsewhere in their squad.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/59596425

I think he's the best tighthead scrummager in the world. He's not as good a player as Tadhg, but he is an absolutely awesome scrummager. Saracens won't be able to replace him.

Hugo I have huge respect for your opinions but I think you’ve forgotten a fairly obvious factor in terms of trying to replace him.

Show Spoiler:

They’re a bunch of cheating b$&%@#ds

[blockhead]

Vincent Koch to leave Saracens

To my mind they last beat us mostly because we didn't have Tadhg and they had Koch

This looks like a big loss for them and his presence at Wasps will be diluted by the mediocrity elsewhere in their squad.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/59596425

I think he's the best tighthead scrummager in the world. He's not as good a player as Tadhg, but he is an absolutely awesome scrummager. Saracens won't be able to replace him.

Hugo I have huge respect for your opinions but I think you’ve forgotten a fairly obvious factor in terms of trying to replace him.

Show Spoiler:

They’re a bunch of cheating b$&%@#ds

But they didn't cheat us.
They cheated other English Clubs, that's all.