Leinster v Salarysins

[outcast eddie]

Any chance of a kindly subscriber to the IT block-copying the Darce's take on our defeat last Saturday and popping it in here?

e’re putting on the hindsight goggles again.

Leinster used the World Cup analogy coming out of lockdown. The theory was sound. Pool matches were the interpros and Pro14 finale with Saracens the first major obstacle in a do-or-die quarter-final.

It proved a little too prescient. Their 2019/20 season went the same way as Ireland’s last three World Cup campaigns. No semi-final and far too many regrets.

In normal circumstances – whatever that means anymore – Leinster have two vital Champions Cup matches in October, before losing their best players for a month, two vital Champions Cup matches in December after which the elite players enter Ireland camp before two vital Champions Cup matches in January.

The Sextons, Ringroses, Van der Fliers are gone again for the Six Nations until late March – a few do not return due to injury after playing at a higher standard than what they face in a European quarter-final.

These are truly weird times when we miss such convoluted structures. Thing is though, they work for us. I am turning a negative into a positive. Normally Leo Cullen is quietly lamenting the lack of access to key players as April looms but the players do come back battle hardened.

Now, Saracens deserved their victory all ends up, but the Leinster players will not see it this way. With the pink and black on their spots, they badly miscued the blue ball. In the first 20 minutes we saw ageing heavyweights, hastened by the absence of international calibre reserves, bringing Leinster down a dark alley.

Cullen’s team had not experienced a remotely similar stranglehold since St James’s Park in May 2019. Actually, it must have felt familiar to what Sexton et al experienced at Twickenham last March or chasing shadows in Tokyo.
The ‘here we are again’ perspective after Leinster’s maul and scrum were dismantled presents a seemingly insurmountable problem for Irish rugby. I don’t buy that. There are multiple reasons for the season ending so abruptly last Saturday.
Leinster were taken apart by half the English pack, the Springbok tighthead, a powerful Scottish lock and two dyed in the wool Saracens operating off a simple, efficient strategy.

In the motivational stakes Sarries won by a distance. They played for each other as if their time together depended upon it. Because it did; Richard Wigglesworth, Brad Barritt and lucky, lucky Michael Rhodes are leaving the club as soon as they lose a game.

All three of them were exceptional.

Defeat, or retaining their European title, marks the end of a dynasty – kept together by illicit financial means – and despite so many key figures, like George Kruis and Owen Farrell, being unavailable Mark McCall kept the skeleton intact.

From Mako to Maro, all the big game hunters showed up as their desire to stay together sparked what will go down as one of the signature ‘Wolf Pack’ displays that proves that Saracens are far from finished. Soon they go into exile but this victory proves that they will return with the same drive that got them to the top of the pile.

Robbie Henshaw absolutely needed to inform Johnny Sexton of Rhodes’s flying head butt in the opening seconds, so his captain could ask referee Pascal Gauzère to make the TMO check for foul play.
Munster attempted to prepare Leinster for what Saracens brought to the Aviva Stadium. That was the only opposition that came close to the onslaught we witnessed on Saturday. But, in the Pro14 semi-final, Leinster scraped past a poor man’s version of the European champions – the glaring differences being Wigglesworth’s accurate box kicking, tortuous scrums and a defensive set for the ages

Maro Itoje’s turnover on 60 minutes could not have been more important. It was 22-10 and Leinster had carried through 28 phases as Sarries defended the 22 like it was their try line. Jack Conan is tackled by Duncan Taylor before Itoje gets over the ball without even trying to support his own body weight. Fair enough. He rode his luck by previously showing Gauzère the ‘pictures’ a ref needs to award a penalty.

In fact, Saracens most ferocious period of resistance ended with Jordon Larmour’s try to make it 22-17 but Leinster had used up most of their energy reserves and Rhodes survived a sanction for the high tackle on Sexton (at least a yellow card in a World Cup year but, hey, there you go).

The next fear is that Ireland will be exposed in the same brutal fashion at an empty Twickenham on November 21st. Itoje, with Owen Farrell back in harness, will attack the Irish lineout, scrum and maul because that is the proven route to continued dominance in a rivalry that has swung their way since February 2019.

The Leinster selection policy, a rotational system that yielded 25 straight wins against mediocre opposition, did not work in the Champions Cup quarter-final. Leinster missed the Scott Fardy nuisance factor and their back three was exposed.

The decision to go with Dev Toner’s lineout security and a genuine Irish talent in 21-year-old Ryan Baird over a 36-year-old Wallaby who last played international rugby in 2015 is what the Irish system is supposed to be about. And while Baird was impressive off the bench, veterans across the ditch like Mako Vunipola won this game.
Again, Captain Hindsight to the rescue. McCall said afterwards that the Saracens strategy was to put Leinster’s backfield under pressure that they were unaccustomed to “20, 30 metres” from their own try line.

This worked. Larmour did enough problem solving from the first Munster game to last weekend to keep the 15 jersey. But the difference between what Munster attempted (twice) and what Saracens delivered proved significant; front foot possession allowed Wigglesworth to box kick with killer accuracy.

When you get overrun in one area on a rugby pitch everything begins to wobble. If the props are struggling the hooker or locks must overcompensate to steady matters. The backrow cannot scan for danger as they have to literally put their shoulders to the wheel.

There is panic in the backline. When you’re not sure about your inside defender you cannot make a dominant hit because you are hedging for the possibility of needing to rescue a team-mate. That brings the offload into play.

When your fullback cannot claim the high ball, everyone is scrambling to plug holes.

Every sentence that starts with ‘I am no _____ expert but’ should be taken with a pinch of salt. However, I am no scrum expert but Andrew Porter should not be dragged over the coals for the damage Mako Vunipola inflicted. Porter is relatively new to the position. He has started four Test matches at tighthead – against Wales, Fiji and Italy (twice) – and his preparation before facing the best loosehead in the business was Jeremy Loughman, Eric O’Sullivan and Cian Healy in training.

Scrummaging against Vunipola is an experience. Saracens went after him. Maybe Porter’s long-term future is as Healy’s successor.

Losing such a big game shines a very harsh light on certain players. The Leinster scrum coughed up seven penalties, so we blame the props. High balls hit the grass, so we blame the fullback.

The Leinster try scorers in this 25-17 season-ending defeat were Andrew Porter and Jordan Larmour but if they want to follow Tadhg Furlong and Rob Kearney into starting Ireland jerseys they need to showcase their technical excellence in European club games of this magnitude.
The end either exposes or justifies the means. Both players represent the long-term future of Irish rugby – alongside James Ryan, Baird, Ronán Kelleher and Caelan Doris – but these young men will need to exceed the performances of all the great players I wore the green jersey alongside if Ireland are to break that quarter-final ceiling in 2023.

The World Cup is still happening in France, right?
What of the Irish provincial report cards?

There are big decisions to be made in every province. Unfortunately, everyone has to make do in the current financial crisis as most of the €5 million the IRFU are “burning” every month is on coach and player salaries.

Connacht burst out of lockdown with the sort of style – working off stable halfbacks who move opposing forwards all over the park – that could be an ideal blueprint for Ireland if we were ever to rely on one distinct way of playing. Abraham Papali’i was the ideal Big Man to recruit so long as he abandons the Owen Farrell tackle technique. An extra player or two in key positions may need to be borrowed from other squads.

Leinster will recover but they measure themselves on success in Europe. This is new to them but Saracens will make them take a long hard look at structural flaws.

Joe Schmidt may be off the scene but I can hear his analysis of the Saracens match; fix one of three areas – physicality, aerial contests, scrums – and the game was there to be stolen.

The promotion of Shane Daly and Craig Casey are immediate positives for Munster but losing RG Snyman after just seven minutes is beyond cruel.
Toulouse rammed home the reality that Dan McFarland’s Ulster only performed for 20 minutes across the five matches since quarantine. They were light years off the pace at Stade Ernest-Wallon.

I believe it was Socrates who wrote: ‘it is what it is.’ Not to worry. Pull all the players together and Ireland are where they like to be, flying under the radar.

Leinster B-

Connacht C+

Ulster C+

Munster D-

[Oldschool]

Outcast.
It is always better to learn from someone else's hindsight if possible.
However!
Hindsight is a much maligned beast.
With hindsight comes experience.
With hindsight you have identified the danger (England) that lies ahead.
However with the foresight that comes from hindsight it is obvious that Wales will thinking......

[riocard911]

Any chance of a kindly subscriber to the IT block-copying the Darce's take on our defeat last Saturday and popping it in here?

e’re putting on the hindsight goggles again.

Leinster used the World Cup analogy coming out of lockdown. The theory was sound. Pool matches were the interpros and Pro14 finale with Saracens the first major obstacle in a do-or-die quarter-final.

It proved a little too prescient. Their 2019/20 season went the same way as Ireland’s last three World Cup campaigns. No semi-final and far too many regrets.

In normal circumstances – whatever that means anymore – Leinster have two vital Champions Cup matches in October, before losing their best players for a month, two vital Champions Cup matches in December after which the elite players enter Ireland camp before two vital Champions Cup matches in January.

The Sextons, Ringroses, Van der Fliers are gone again for the Six Nations until late March – a few do not return due to injury after playing at a higher standard than what they face in a European quarter-final.

These are truly weird times when we miss such convoluted structures. Thing is though, they work for us. I am turning a negative into a positive. Normally Leo Cullen is quietly lamenting the lack of access to key players as April looms but the players do come back battle hardened.

Now, Saracens deserved their victory all ends up, but the Leinster players will not see it this way. With the pink and black on their spots, they badly miscued the blue ball. In the first 20 minutes we saw ageing heavyweights, hastened by the absence of international calibre reserves, bringing Leinster down a dark alley.

Cullen’s team had not experienced a remotely similar stranglehold since St James’s Park in May 2019. Actually, it must have felt familiar to what Sexton et al experienced at Twickenham last March or chasing shadows in Tokyo.
The ‘here we are again’ perspective after Leinster’s maul and scrum were dismantled presents a seemingly insurmountable problem for Irish rugby. I don’t buy that. There are multiple reasons for the season ending so abruptly last Saturday.
Leinster were taken apart by half the English pack, the Springbok tighthead, a powerful Scottish lock and two dyed in the wool Saracens operating off a simple, efficient strategy.

In the motivational stakes Sarries won by a distance. They played for each other as if their time together depended upon it. Because it did; Richard Wigglesworth, Brad Barritt and lucky, lucky Michael Rhodes are leaving the club as soon as they lose a game.

All three of them were exceptional.

Defeat, or retaining their European title, marks the end of a dynasty – kept together by illicit financial means – and despite so many key figures, like George Kruis and Owen Farrell, being unavailable Mark McCall kept the skeleton intact.

From Mako to Maro, all the big game hunters showed up as their desire to stay together sparked what will go down as one of the signature ‘Wolf Pack’ displays that proves that Saracens are far from finished. Soon they go into exile but this victory proves that they will return with the same drive that got them to the top of the pile.

Robbie Henshaw absolutely needed to inform Johnny Sexton of Rhodes’s flying head butt in the opening seconds, so his captain could ask referee Pascal Gauzère to make the TMO check for foul play.
Munster attempted to prepare Leinster for what Saracens brought to the Aviva Stadium. That was the only opposition that came close to the onslaught we witnessed on Saturday. But, in the Pro14 semi-final, Leinster scraped past a poor man’s version of the European champions – the glaring differences being Wigglesworth’s accurate box kicking, tortuous scrums and a defensive set for the ages

Maro Itoje’s turnover on 60 minutes could not have been more important. It was 22-10 and Leinster had carried through 28 phases as Sarries defended the 22 like it was their try line. Jack Conan is tackled by Duncan Taylor before Itoje gets over the ball without even trying to support his own body weight. Fair enough. He rode his luck by previously showing Gauzère the ‘pictures’ a ref needs to award a penalty.

In fact, Saracens most ferocious period of resistance ended with Jordon Larmour’s try to make it 22-17 but Leinster had used up most of their energy reserves and Rhodes survived a sanction for the high tackle on Sexton (at least a yellow card in a World Cup year but, hey, there you go).

The next fear is that Ireland will be exposed in the same brutal fashion at an empty Twickenham on November 21st. Itoje, with Owen Farrell back in harness, will attack the Irish lineout, scrum and maul because that is the proven route to continued dominance in a rivalry that has swung their way since February 2019.

The Leinster selection policy, a rotational system that yielded 25 straight wins against mediocre opposition, did not work in the Champions Cup quarter-final. Leinster missed the Scott Fardy nuisance factor and their back three was exposed.

The decision to go with Dev Toner’s lineout security and a genuine Irish talent in 21-year-old Ryan Baird over a 36-year-old Wallaby who last played international rugby in 2015 is what the Irish system is supposed to be about. And while Baird was impressive off the bench, veterans across the ditch like Mako Vunipola won this game.
Again, Captain Hindsight to the rescue. McCall said afterwards that the Saracens strategy was to put Leinster’s backfield under pressure that they were unaccustomed to “20, 30 metres” from their own try line.

This worked. Larmour did enough problem solving from the first Munster game to last weekend to keep the 15 jersey. But the difference between what Munster attempted (twice) and what Saracens delivered proved significant; front foot possession allowed Wigglesworth to box kick with killer accuracy.

When you get overrun in one area on a rugby pitch everything begins to wobble. If the props are struggling the hooker or locks must overcompensate to steady matters. The backrow cannot scan for danger as they have to literally put their shoulders to the wheel.

There is panic in the backline. When you’re not sure about your inside defender you cannot make a dominant hit because you are hedging for the possibility of needing to rescue a team-mate. That brings the offload into play.

When your fullback cannot claim the high ball, everyone is scrambling to plug holes.

Every sentence that starts with ‘I am no _____ expert but’ should be taken with a pinch of salt. However, I am no scrum expert but Andrew Porter should not be dragged over the coals for the damage Mako Vunipola inflicted. Porter is relatively new to the position. He has started four Test matches at tighthead – against Wales, Fiji and Italy (twice) – and his preparation before facing the best loosehead in the business was Jeremy Loughman, Eric O’Sullivan and Cian Healy in training.

Scrummaging against Vunipola is an experience. Saracens went after him. Maybe Porter’s long-term future is as Healy’s successor.

Losing such a big game shines a very harsh light on certain players. The Leinster scrum coughed up seven penalties, so we blame the props. High balls hit the grass, so we blame the fullback.

The Leinster try scorers in this 25-17 season-ending defeat were Andrew Porter and Jordan Larmour but if they want to follow Tadhg Furlong and Rob Kearney into starting Ireland jerseys they need to showcase their technical excellence in European club games of this magnitude.
The end either exposes or justifies the means. Both players represent the long-term future of Irish rugby – alongside James Ryan, Baird, Ronán Kelleher and Caelan Doris – but these young men will need to exceed the performances of all the great players I wore the green jersey alongside if Ireland are to break that quarter-final ceiling in 2023.

The World Cup is still happening in France, right?
What of the Irish provincial report cards?

There are big decisions to be made in every province. Unfortunately, everyone has to make do in the current financial crisis as most of the €5 million the IRFU are “burning” every month is on coach and player salaries.

Connacht burst out of lockdown with the sort of style – working off stable halfbacks who move opposing forwards all over the park – that could be an ideal blueprint for Ireland if we were ever to rely on one distinct way of playing. Abraham Papali’i was the ideal Big Man to recruit so long as he abandons the Owen Farrell tackle technique. An extra player or two in key positions may need to be borrowed from other squads.

Leinster will recover but they measure themselves on success in Europe. This is new to them but Saracens will make them take a long hard look at structural flaws.

Joe Schmidt may be off the scene but I can hear his analysis of the Saracens match; fix one of three areas – physicality, aerial contests, scrums – and the game was there to be stolen.

The promotion of Shane Daly and Craig Casey are immediate positives for Munster but losing RG Snyman after just seven minutes is beyond cruel.
Toulouse rammed home the reality that Dan McFarland’s Ulster only performed for 20 minutes across the five matches since quarantine. They were light years off the pace at Stade Ernest-Wallon.

I believe it was Socrates who wrote: ‘it is what it is.’ Not to worry. Pull all the players together and Ireland are where they like to be, flying under the radar.

Leinster B-

Connacht C+

Ulster C+

Munster D-

Muchos gracias!!!

[leinsterforever]

Have to laugh a bit at Darce giving Munster a D- when their tactics were almost identical to Saracens'. A few of these pundits could do with remembering the line from If- about treating the two impostors, triumph and disaster, the same.

On foot of an article about the match on The Irish Times Sports Page on Facebook, "Scrum Doctor" Peter Bracken, who Dave, Jason and John a while back had as a guest on Blues Talk TV, posted a series of comments analysing Leinster's misfortunes at scrum time vs Jamie George et al. I found them very interesting and am block-copying them unredacted here for the rest of ye. He didn't do it in one big piece, but in a series of individual comments. Here they are:

***

Saracens wanted to physically and mentally dominate at scrum time. They saw it as an area of the game they could get an advantage and went for it. It was a calculated risk. It looks as if they put a lot of effort into it during the week and then in the match itself. If all that effort wasn't rewarded Leinster would have won.
Leinster have an excellent scrum, they were targeted at scrum time by a team that have only one competition to play for.
In many ways similar to SA v England in the last world cup final. England had an excellent scrum all tournament but SA picked the scrum as the way to beat England that day and it worked.

Saracens have been working a lot on an isometric hold, build tension and potential energy and then explode forward type of scrum.
Makes sence as they purchased a scrum machine that does that from me, 2 years ago, and they use it regularly! Leinster weren't interested in the machine btw! A side point, I digress

Scrum 1: excellent tight, elbow down, perfectly legal right arm bind from Saracens 3. Leinster 1 can't get full extension on his left arm and is left in a weak position. This senario repeats itself throughout the match. Leinster flanker bails out prematurely, ie, sticks his head up in the air before scrum is over. Leinster are now down to 7 men scrummaging. Saracens would have felt this and exerted the forward push. Leinster locks hips come up, under the pressure and Saracen carnage insues.

Scrum 1 senario is repeatedly continually throughout the match.

Leinsters scrum failures couldn't be rectified on the day. The damage was done in the weeks leading up to the match. To get the efficiency, timing, team work that Saracens had only comes from hours of intense practice. Especially the isometric hold training. Takes hours to get that right. The safest and most effective way to train the isometric hold is on my machine but nobody believes me and I'm fed up trying to convince anyone any more. But maybe Saracens have done it for me!
Probably not, Irish clubs love those big metal, useless, expensive Rhino and Predator machines.

By scrum 4 the referee was in Saracens pocket. He was going to give them every 50/50 penalty scrum time which is what happened. He is only human and Saracens had deservedly put themselves in this advantageous position with regard the ref with they're destruction of Leinster in the previous scrums. Scrum 4 was a penalty against Leinster 3 for slipping to his knee. Extremely harsh. Should not have been anything. Leinster 3 immediately regained his footing and scrum was safe. Should have been play on. But the ref was looking to give Saracens the advantage at scrum time from this scrum onwards.

Scrum 5: sheer power from Saracens but Leinster get the ball away. Great strik from Leinster 2.

Scrum 6: Leinster getting nervous now. They don't want to get hosed again so over commit and push before the ball is in. Penalty. Correct decision

Scrum 7: Leinster got the LH side up fairly in a controlled manner. Not a spin. Incorrect decision to penalize Leinster. It should have been Leinsters penalty.

Scrum 8: Pure brute force combined with straight scrummaging with excellent low height and body position from Saracens. Saracens had the mental scrum battle well won at this stage

***

At this point the person who asked Peter for the explanation made the following comment:

Excellent analysis, have you offered your services to Leinster, they should have listened to you first time!!

To which Peter replied:

Thank you *****. I haven't offered my services in a few years *****. Might strick when the iron is hot!
To be fair, it's only one bad scrum performance. They'll rectify it I'm sure. Excellent players, excellent coaches, excellent organisation, they'll be fine.
Anyway, Pro14 Winners!

It's always good to see channel one ball and out to the backs. A quick heel and fast out is something Leinster used a number of times over the last five games. Just need to work now on not being vulnerable to getting shoved back on opposition put-in.

[Ruckedtobits]

Bristol versus Bordeaux gave a good tactical example of how to outwit a bigger more abrasive pack by taking quick penalties and varying line-out numbers, but sometimes even mauling a four man line-out. From half-time onwards they managed to keep the tempo high and along the way, including injury time, they scored four tries and at half-time in the extra time led 34-20.

Rule one when playing a bigger stronger pack is to break them up, easiest done at line-outs, and don't allow them to travel and work as a pack. Bristol's tactics were Lam at his tactical best. Just like the Pro14 final of Connacht v Leinster. Don't allow your stronger opponents to impose their style of game, by thinking faster than them. Lots of mistakes but smart rugby for the most part.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

Bristol versus Bordeaux gave a good tactical example of how to outwit a bigger more abrasive pack by taking quick penalties and varying line-out numbers, but sometimes even mauling a four man line-out. From half-time onwards they managed to keep the tempo high and along the way, including injury time, they scored four tries and at half-time in the extra time led 34-20.

Rule one when playing a bigger stronger pack is to break them up, easiest done at line-outs, and don't allow them to travel and work as a pack. Bristol's tactics were Lam at his tactical best. Just like the Pro14 final of Connacht v Leinster. Don't allow your stronger opponents to impose their style of game, by thinking faster than them. Lots of mistakes but smart rugby for the most part.

impressive stuff from bristol. I like them. pat lam is some man for one man. only his second season with bristol, is that right?

I agree with your point btw. I can see racing varying their game against saracens tomorrow but in the same breath I think they had their "final" last saturday...ala england in the WC against NZ. can't see them pulling off the same intensity as they did against us again.

[Dave Cahill]

only his second season with bristol, is that right?

His third - 17-18, 18-19 and this season, 19-20

[LeinsterLeader]

Do we really have problems with big packs? In recent seasons we've beaten bigger packs in sides like Toulouse, Montpelier, Lyon etc.

Really in the last two years, we've just had a problem with ......well, Saracens!

[Dave Cahill]

Really in the last two years, we've just had a problem with ......well, Saracens!

Like every team, we have a problem with teams that are better than us. There is only one team better than us, Saracens. Saracens are and have been better than us, we have two years to change that situation.

[neiliog93]

One of the main reasons they are better than us is because they're bigger and more powerful (AND accurate). If we are to beat them in two years' time, assuming they are still strong, we'll probably need two more world class bruisers in the pack (either by our own players developing into that, or foreign signings).

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Bristol did some good things but I thought the officials only reffed one team tonight. Not sure how they missed Luatua pulling someone’s head into touch, and the offside from the grubber for the try looked pretty blatant to me.

One thing they did very well that I think we need to copy is that they were really aggressive in going for the poach. It bugs me that we often take a look and then just get back into the defensive system. You could practically see Ireland players being afraid to mess up and get a bollocking from Joe at times but I’m surprised Leinster haven’t been more proactive in that area.

[ronk]

We have 2 years to have a run in Europe and potentially have to figure out a way to beat them, if they come back the same.

[Oldschool]

Far too much fixation on Saracens.
You play what is in front of you.
Two years from now we could be going for our sixth *.

The Racing v Saracens SF is Virgin 1 and Channel 4.
Good chance to see Zeebs (didn't look as overfed as some would have us believe) and Don.etc Ryan.
Good luck to both of them.

[riocard911]

Really in the last two years, we've just had a problem with ......well, Saracens!

Like every team, we have a problem with teams that are better than us. There is only one team better than us, Saracens. Saracens are and have been better than us, we have two years to change that situation.

I refuse to believe that Saracens are better than us. We get the ball off the park in Newcastle at 10-3 before half time and/or Ringer doesn't fluff the overlap in the second and one has potentially quite a different outcome. Similarly last Saturday - Saracens started that game like their lives depended on it, our fellas didn't. No one has been able to explain that one to me yet, despite the fact that at this sporting level it is absolutely inexcusable. In 2018 the bulk of that Leinster team was only seconds away from inflicting the heaviest ever defeat on England in Twickenham - with their team including Mako, Faz óg, Itoje, Daly etc. And all of a sudden they're automatically better than us? Gimme a break. Since the start of 2019 England/Saracens have done a job on numerous occasion on Ireland/Leinster. Why is that? IMO, cos for some reason we are missing the "manic f%~king aggression" Paulie invoked in Croker fadó, fadó. Ireland's and Leinster's recent problems with England and Sarries respectively are all in the mind. Sure they're fabulous teams - no question. But if one goes out from the get go assuming their superiority, one is going to get one's arse kicked. To quote The Stranglers: "Something better change"!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSEOzimKnEY

[Dave Cahill]

Belief doens't come it to it, people can believe anything they want - but the hard reality is that this Leinster team has played this Saracens team three times and lost twice.

I'm not sure that comparing Ireland vs England to Leinster vs Saracens makes the point you think it does - Ireland, with fewer Leinster players than Leinster, were better than England, with fewer Saracens players than Saracens. The conclusion being that having more Leinster players weakened Leinster, and having more Saracens players strengthened Saracens. Not that it actually matters because what a different team with different players and a different coach in a different competition at a different level of rugby does isn't really relevant.

Oh, and 'manic f%~king aggression'? We lost that game, costing us a Grand Slam.

[riocard911]

Belief doens't come it to it, people can believe anything they want - but the hard reality is that this Leinster team has played this Saracens team three times and lost twice.

I'm not sure that comparing Ireland vs England to Leinster vs Saracens makes the point you think it does - Ireland, with fewer Leinster players than Leinster, were better than England, with fewer Saracens players than Saracens. The conclusion being that having more Leinster players weakened Leinster, and having more Saracens players strengthened Saracens. Not that it actually matters because what a different team with different players and a different coach in a different competition at a different level of rugby does isn't really relevant.

Oh, and 'manic f%~king aggression'? We lost that game, costing us a Grand Slam.

The Paulie quote I was referring to was in the dressing room just before the historic match vs England in Croker, which Ireland won and according to all involved had in the bag before the starting whistle was blown, such was the intensity they brought to match and perhaps also due to England being overwhelmed by the occasion - the anthems etc. I refer to that match, because in a similar fashion last Saturday Saracens played like men possessed from the first second on, while Leinster team did not. I am still waiting for someone to explain that to me. How could Leinster start the game not at the same mental pitch as Saracens? During the coverage one or other of the TV commentators said that Saracens had appeared to be more intense and focussed in the warm up compared to Leinster. How can that be? We're playing at home, ffs!!! Of course, Dave, all comparisons can be reduced to apples and oranges, no question. I also do not want to take away from the Saracens performance and the way they successfully targetted us in the scrums, in the maul and via box kicks. After the Newcastle match the Leinster coaching staff expressed dissatisfaction with the team performance. It was described as a match, where we had a chance to win, but failed to take. They had more than a year to prepare for the rematch. In their heart of hearts I believe Leo et al will similarly look back at last Saturday also as a game we should have won, not because Saracens were so absolutely fantastic, but because we didn't perform to the height of our powers. And that is why I refuse to accept Saracens are per se a better team and suggest the problem could be a mental one.

[ronk]

On a given day either side can win if they are closely matched. Especially once injuries are factored. We could have beaten Saracens if we had played better.

Saracens have 3 Heineken Cups in 4 years. We have 1. They are clearly the best side in Europe for that period and they backed it up by beating us some of the time.

I'm glad that the team I support have been 2nd best in Europe in recent years even though I would prefer first.

[neiliog93]

In a neutral venue, I think we'd win 3 in 10, they'd win 7 in 10. They have too much power (and accuracy with that power) for us at the moment.

[Dave Cahill]

The Paulie quote I was referring to was in the dressing room just before the historic match vs England in Croker, which Ireland won and according to all involved had in the bag before the starting whistle was blown, such was the intensity they brought to match and perhaps also due to England being overwhelmed by the occasion - the anthems etc. I refer to that match, because in a similar fashion last Saturday Saracens played like men possessed from the first second on, while Leinster team did not. I am still waiting for someone to explain that to me. How could Leinster start the game not at the same mental pitch as Saracens? During the coverage one or other of the TV commentators said that Saracens had appeared to be more intense and focussed in the warm up compared to Leinster. How can that be? We're playing at home, ffs!!! Of course, Dave, all comparisons can be reduced to apples and oranges, no question. I also do not want to take away from the Saracens performance and the way they successfully targetted us in the scrums, in the maul and via box kicks. After the Newcastle match the Leinster coaching staff expressed dissatisfaction with the team performance. It was described as a match, where we had a chance to win, but failed to take. They had more than a year to prepare for the rematch. In their heart of hearts I believe Leo et al will similarly look back at last Saturday also as a game we should have won, not because Saracens were so absolutely fantastic, but because we didn't perform to the height of our powers. And that is why I refuse to accept Saracens are per se a better team and suggest the problem could be a mental one.

It was before the France game. We lost.

[ronk]

Leinster are built to maintain high standards through rotation (& competition) and be a well oiled machine for the finals in May.

We couldn't do that with the disruption. We had barely enough time to get a core of players up to speed and we had a schedule that didn't allow us to peak. Lots of guys didn't really get the chance to build form.

Saracens got an early start and ramped under no pressure. We had big derbies, an unbeaten Pro14 albatross and knockout games. We needed to be 100% to beat them. We clearly weren't coming into the game.