Leinster v Salarysins

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The Doc
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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by The Doc »

outcast eddie wrote:
July 21st, 2020, 12:15 pm
BTW, 'segregate', 'cocoon' 'bubble' and 'isolate', what's the difference between these? Maybe they can segregate the bubble and cocoon while in isolation. That should do it. :wink:
Cocooning means not leaving the house for any reason - as was / is the case with "at risk" people. If you come from the UK, you can still go out to exercise and go to the shops if necessary but just not generally mix around in public without reason (isolating). Do that with a group and you have a "bubble" - where you hang around in a group but not circulate in public.

I assume that's what they'll do with the team
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Up Wexford
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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by Up Wexford »

This might be a lot trickier to get across the line than previously imagined - it will be the first meeting of an extremely high Covid rate team (UK) with a relatively low one in Europe? And as I understand it, even with all the measures in place in the Premier League they get about one player a week testing positive? I could not imagine a more perfect situation for transferring respiratory droplets from one person to another than the front row of the scrum.
johng wrote:
July 21st, 2020, 12:52 pm
The prem are playing 4 rounds of their comp in August then nothing til October. Sarries could get over here and stay for 2 weeks if they needed.
Sarries going to be travelling all over the UK too, to get a good spread. What happens if a Saracens players tests positive? I see the NBA have their remaining playoff teams quarantining together, before the resumption of their league in August, and it seems to be working.

This is not to scaremonger, more to highlight the salient issues playing sport pre vaccine. I'm sure it will go ahead, and I think it should, but I think all players should be aware of the risks. Obviously the PRO 14 rounds beforehand will be an important bellweather as to the feasibility of rugby as a covid sport on the British Isles.

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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by The Doc »

Up Wexford wrote:This might be a lot trickier to get across the line than previously imagined - it will be the first meeting of an extremely high Covid rate team (UK) with a relatively low one in Europe? And as I understand it, even with all the measures in place in the Premier League they get about one player a week testing positive? I could not imagine a more perfect situation for transferring respiratory droplets from one person to another than the front row of the scrum.
johng wrote:
July 21st, 2020, 12:52 pm
The prem are playing 4 rounds of their comp in August then nothing til October. Sarries could get over here and stay for 2 weeks if they needed.
Sarries going to be travelling all over the UK too, to get a good spread. What happens if a Saracens players tests positive? I see the NBA have their remaining playoff teams quarantining together, before the resumption of their league in August, and it seems to be working.

This is not to scaremonger, more to highlight the salient issues playing sport pre vaccine. I'm sure it will go ahead, and I think it should, but I think all players should be aware of the risks. Obviously the PRO 14 rounds beforehand will be an important bellweather as to the feasibility of rugby as a covid sport on the British Isles.
I heard Eanna Flavley being interviewed on the covid assessment. One interesting point was that the higher risk of infection was during the setups for scrums rather than the scrums themselves. It's the face to face time that was highest risk.


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curates_egg
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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by curates_egg »

The Doc wrote:
July 21st, 2020, 11:51 am
curates_egg wrote:
July 21st, 2020, 10:53 am
Certainly, I cannot see how the provinces or national side can expect to compete if there is no travel without a two-week movement restriction.
There isn't a two week movement restriction. If you travel here from the UK, you have to segregate (not fully cocoon) for up 2 weeks. If you're here shorter than 2 weeks, you need to isolate for the length of time here.

So if they come over and have arrangements to remain in a bubble they'll be fine

Edit : assuming the actual playing of the game is signed off of course
How can you segregate in the middle of a rugby game?
I know some wingers I played with in my time tried...but seriously.

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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by johng »

They wouldn't have to do it in the middle of a game. Their last prem fixture is 31st of August. They have 3 days to get over here and isolate for 2 weeks.

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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by The Doc »

johng wrote:They wouldn't have to do it in the middle of a game. Their last prem fixture is 31st of August. They have 3 days to get over here and isolate for 2 weeks.
Huh? They don't have to. They can come over day before and go home day after. Just not go down Grafton Street for coffees


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riocard911
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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by riocard911 »

I'm dying to see how Leo et al navigate the upcoming fixture list.....

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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by curates_egg »

johng wrote:
July 21st, 2020, 8:09 pm
They wouldn't have to do it in the middle of a game. Their last prem fixture is 31st of August. They have 3 days to get over here and isolate for 2 weeks.
That might work as a solution for you, but I don't see how we can expect Saracens to come here for two weeks before the game, for one game.

Beyond the cost, it is just not a practical way to organise cross-border tournaments, even if they have a gap in domestic games.
The semi finals are scheduled one week later. Do you expect Clermont and Racing to play their quarter final in Dublin, and come over two weeks earlier, in case we win our quarter final and they have to play us in Dublin?

The only way these fixtures go ahead is if Ireland changes its rules. The other countries don't need to change their rules.

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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by johng »

I was just saying that they COULD. Not that they will. I think Doc's solution is better.

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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by curates_egg »

Fair enough. Looking in from abroad, the debate (or lack of it) on travel is hard to fathom.

I think it’s cakeism and unicornism to think you can have a rugby season and keep the current travel policy.
But they have let the public debate get so far, and allowed travel to be so toxicly portrayed, I’m not sure how you roll it back. Certainly, the public will not care about rugby.

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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by Workhorse »

A simple solution would be to get all the teams self isolating in one place like the NBA are doing, maybe not in the one hotel but in the one country would do it . No shortage of hotel capacity about anyway, just pick somewhere with 2/3 stadiums close enough together to just be a bus ride away from each other and you're sorted

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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by curates_egg »

Workhorse wrote:
July 21st, 2020, 9:48 pm
A simple solution would be to get all the teams self isolating in one place like the NBA are doing, maybe not in the one hotel but in the one country would do it . No shortage of hotel capacity about anyway, just pick somewhere with 2/3 stadiums close enough together to just be a bus ride away from each other and you're sorted
That would be fine if it concerned teams from one national jurisdiction. I just don't see how it is practicable or realistic for cross-border tournaments.

At some point, the strategy in Ireland switched from suppressing to eliminating the virus. The public seems to totally support that, which is fair enough.
But there are enormous social and economic consequences of this approach, which do not appear to have not been discussed at all (but which expats like me are already keenly aware of).

To get back to topic: one pretty obvious consequence is that Irish rugby teams will not be able to play in pan-European competitions (like the Champions Cup or the Pro14) if the measures currently in place continue to be applied. Or, if they do, it is the Irish teams that will need to leave to jurisdictions that enable them to travel more freely, and not vice-versa.

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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by The Doc »

curates_egg wrote:
July 21st, 2020, 8:28 pm
johng wrote:
July 21st, 2020, 8:09 pm
They wouldn't have to do it in the middle of a game. Their last prem fixture is 31st of August. They have 3 days to get over here and isolate for 2 weeks.
That might work as a solution for you, but I don't see how we can expect Saracens to come here for two weeks before the game, for one game.

Beyond the cost, it is just not a practical way to organise cross-border tournaments, even if they have a gap in domestic games.
The semi finals are scheduled one week later. Do you expect Clermont and Racing to play their quarter final in Dublin, and come over two weeks earlier, in case we win our quarter final and they have to play us in Dublin?

The only way these fixtures go ahead is if Ireland changes its rules. The other countries don't need to change their rules.
I think people are over-complicating things. There isn't a need to isolate for 2 weeks. That only applies if you are staying here for 2 weeks or more. If staying less than 2 weeks then people just need to avoid unnecessary public interaction for the period of time here. If that's a couple of days, then fine. So a team can travel in and out as normal - in fairness these teams pretty much isolate anyway when they come over. Probably very little difference except in the hotel

A separate question is about playing a game - and given the IRFU have agreed a schedule with the HSE then I have to assume there is an agreed protocol around the ongoing environment of continuous checks on both teams.
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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by curates_egg »

The Doc wrote:
July 22nd, 2020, 9:04 am
curates_egg wrote:
July 21st, 2020, 8:28 pm
johng wrote:
July 21st, 2020, 8:09 pm
They wouldn't have to do it in the middle of a game. Their last prem fixture is 31st of August. They have 3 days to get over here and isolate for 2 weeks.
That might work as a solution for you, but I don't see how we can expect Saracens to come here for two weeks before the game, for one game.

Beyond the cost, it is just not a practical way to organise cross-border tournaments, even if they have a gap in domestic games.
The semi finals are scheduled one week later. Do you expect Clermont and Racing to play their quarter final in Dublin, and come over two weeks earlier, in case we win our quarter final and they have to play us in Dublin?

The only way these fixtures go ahead is if Ireland changes its rules. The other countries don't need to change their rules.
I think people are over-complicating things. There isn't a need to isolate for 2 weeks. That only applies if you are staying here for 2 weeks or more. If staying less than 2 weeks then people just need to avoid unnecessary public interaction for the period of time here. If that's a couple of days, then fine. So a team can travel in and out as normal - in fairness these teams pretty much isolate anyway when they come over. Probably very little difference except in the hotel

A separate question is about playing a game - and given the IRFU have agreed a schedule with the HSE then I have to assume there is an agreed protocol around the ongoing environment of continuous checks on both teams.
What you are suggesting would not comply with the current guidelines on people arriving into Ireland: I know because I went through them.
So what you are suggesting is an exception for a rugby team.
Now, I would be fine with that. But I would also want a similar exception myself to go and visit my family, which - despite my love of Leinster rugby - is a far greater priority for me.
However, beyond how I feel about it, I just can't see - in the context of the current public debate - the public accepting an exception for a rugby team.

Assuming we win, you will then need an exception for another rugby team from a different jurisdiction the following week.

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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by johng »

curates_egg wrote:
July 22nd, 2020, 9:28 am
Assuming we win, you will then need an exception for another rugby team from a different jurisdiction the following week.
A fair point well made. And if we won that too then yet another.

Pro14 looks like Leinster v Munster and Embra v Ulster.

Both semi finals in the same political jurisdiction. Scarlets with an outside chance of getting in and Glasgow with a faint mathematical one.

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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by Dave Cahill »

johng wrote:
July 22nd, 2020, 10:37 am
A fair point well made. And if we won that too then yet another.

Pro14 looks like Leinster v Munster and Embra v Ulster.

Both semi finals in the same political jurisdiction. Scarlets with an outside chance of getting in and Glasgow with a faint mathematical one.
Healthcare is a devolved competency so Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and England are different jurisdictions with different pandemic responses
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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by curates_egg »

Rightly or wrongly, I believe we are the only country in the EU (including those in the withdrawal period), other than maybe Malta, going for a strategy of elimination, as opposed to suppression (or whack-a-mole, as even WHO officials have described it).

Now, if we continue that - and there is no evidence either from the government or opposition, or the public debate, that we won't - the coffee smells like no rugby, other than interpros, until there is a vaccine (if there ever is).
I think rugby fans need to wake up and smell that coffee.
To me, it smells a lot like decaf Cafe Hag. But maybe people are willing to live with Cafe Hag for a few years.
I'm going to have to start getting reinvested into Top14 I fear.

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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by cormac »

The final stages of the Champions League and Europa League (from the quarter-finals onwards) will be played in one country next month. CL in Portugal, EL in Germany.
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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by The Doc »

curates_egg wrote:
July 22nd, 2020, 9:28 am

What you are suggesting would not comply with the current guidelines on people arriving into Ireland: I know because I went through them.
So what you are suggesting is an exception for a rugby team.
How does it not comply with current guidelines....
HSE wrote: Most people who arrive in Ireland from another country need to restrict their movements for 14 days.

This includes:
Irish citizens coming home
people with no symptoms
people who have tested negative for the virus in another country

Restricting your movements means staying at home and avoiding contact with other people and social situations as much as possible.

Do not:
use public transport
visit others
meet face-to-face with anyone who is at higher risk from coronavirus
go to the shop unless absolutely necessary - wear a face covering if you do

You can travel to where you plan to restrict your movements. But avoid using public transport if possible. Ask a relative or household member to collect you when you arrive in Ireland. Household members who were not travelling with you do not need to restrict their movements.
McCann Fitzgerald legal advice wrote: If an international passenger’s stay in the State will be for less than 14 days, the residence at the specified temporary “place of residence” is to be for the entire duration of the person’s stay in the State.
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Re: Leinster v Salarysins

Post by Workhorse »

curates_egg wrote:
July 22nd, 2020, 8:52 am
That would be fine if it concerned teams from one national jurisdiction. I just don't see how it is practicable or realistic for cross-border tournaments.
And why wouldn't it work for cross border tournaments?

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