blockhead wrote:Who would want the title in these circumstances? At the very least have a final V Edinburgh. Even then it would'nt sit right.
They should hand it to Munster. Give us all a laugh.
Agreed on both counts. Even with our perfect record we've not won anything yet.
And on the second case, it's the only chance they've got of winning anything these days.
I agree with Dave Rennie's proposal. The idea of having a final between Leinster and Edinburgh would not be acceptable to Munster or Ulster who would rightly claim that they had a very good chance of finishing the regular season with more points than Edinburgh. And would there really be time to play both semi finals and a final, if Munster and Ulster objections were to be accommodated? If there are any weeks available at the start of next season I would prefer to see them used to finish the HC. Sure, awarding the Pro14 trophy to Leinster is not ideal but the circumstances are unprecedented.
The organisers clearly do not want this season declared null and void. And I empathise with that. It is a horrible look and if it can be avoided it should.
Working under the assumption that no more games can be played, the team with the most points should be declared winners (something that is 100% going to be written into competition rules around the world)
It is a horrible way to win if it goes ahead and I imagine the players and coaching staff would be quite dismissive about it.
To people who don't like it I'd be inclined to say. We're in an unprecedented pandemic. If they're unwilling to compromise about something as inconsequential as rugby I'd hate to see what their priorities are in the rest of their life
arsebiscuits1 wrote: If they're unwilling to compromise about something as inconsequential as rugby I'd hate to see what their priorities are in the rest of their life
says the guy unwilling to compromise and just null the season despite the "unprecedented pandemic".
arsebiscuits1 wrote: If they're unwilling to compromise about something as inconsequential as rugby I'd hate to see what their priorities are in the rest of their life
says the guy unwilling to compromise and just null the season despite the "unprecedented pandemic".
Nice one Dave. Misinterpret a post and goad said poster. Least we know you're consistent even in times like these
My point is the organisers don't want the season voided. And that's my preferred stance.
Should they null it, I will obviously accept it. I will be mildly disappointed but there are more important things in my life
I will happily accept your concession that you misrepresented me should you choose to give it. Especially as I've cleared it up.
Dave Cahill wrote:Very easy to argue with it. The Pro14 isn't a league. The team with the most points aren't the champions, the team that wins the final are. The prize for having the most points is a home semi final. In the 10 years since the League moved to play offs, the team with the most points have won the league only three times
The other argument is that the season has gone beyond halfway, so the results should stand. That is extrapolating from the World Rugby regulations with regards to a match - if the match is called off at halftime or afterwards, the score stands as the final result.
Obviously I'm a Leinster fan, I'd rather see us getting the trophy than not get it. There's no doubt that we have the only claim to it of anybody in the league – we've won every single game we've played.
Whether Leinster are nominated winners now or whether the season is nulled probably makes little difference to most. Leinster will enter next season as the current Pro14 champions either way and will be the top seeded team from the Pro14 for next season's HCC either way. The only difference is that Leinster will have one less Pro14 trophy if the season is nulled. I am not sure whether the average supporter even knows ho many Pro 14 trophies we have. We do not put stars on our jersey for Pro14 wins. As a fanatical Leinster supporter, however, it makes a difference to me and I would like that extra trophy even if it is only for half a season.
arsebiscuits1 wrote: If they're unwilling to compromise about something as inconsequential as rugby I'd hate to see what their priorities are in the rest of their life
says the guy unwilling to compromise and just null the season despite the "unprecedented pandemic".
Nice one Dave. Misinterpret a post and goad said poster. Least we know you're consistent even in times like these
My point is the organisers don't want the season voided. And that's my preferred stance.
Should they null it, I will obviously accept it. I will be mildly disappointed but there are more important things in my life
I will happily accept your concession that you misrepresented me should you choose to give it. Especially as I've cleared it up.
Dave Cahill wrote:Very easy to argue with it. The Pro14 isn't a league. The team with the most points aren't the champions, the team that wins the final are. The prize for having the most points is a home semi final. In the 10 years since the League moved to play offs, the team with the most points have won the league only three times
The other argument is that the season has gone beyond halfway, so the results should stand. That is extrapolating from the World Rugby regulations with regards to a match - if the match is called off at halftime or afterwards, the score stands as the final result.
Obviously I'm a Leinster fan, I'd rather see us getting the trophy than not get it. There's no doubt that we have the only claim to it of anybody in the league – we've won every single game we've played.
Competitions have different regulations for what is considered a void match after abandonment. 60 minutes is the threshold in the Pro14 and Champions Cup. Thats 75%, we've played just over 60% of the games.
There is just too much uncertainty - clubs don't know what to do about training, contracts, venues, season tickets for next year, refunds on season tickets for this year (personally I'd be okay forgoing the latter and going ahead and buying the former), sponsorship deals, broadcasting rights, kit deals. All this is up in the air and the clubs have no income coming in. The provinces will probably be okay due to the union backing us, but there is a wider picture - not much point in us surviving if we don't know who we're going to be able to play. A clear and decisive call needs to be made now - either in terms of voiding the season or awarding the trophy. Either way the season has to be terminated so clubs can plan for next season and plan how to fill the holes in their coffers.
And the club game isn't even the most pressing problem - we have one union already gone into Chapter 11 in the USA, and another very close in Australia.
Fully appreciate that there are bigger issues in the world right now, but on the singular consideration of whether there should be no name, with just an asterisk beside the 2019/20 Pro 14 season champions, or the name of the team that were head and shoulders above all others in the competition, I will go with my natural bias and argue that Leinster should be given the award.
I'm not a Liverpool supporter, but I would regard it as a similar travesty if they were denied the Premiership this year.
I wouldn't make the same argument for Leinster (or any other team) being awarded the Heineken Cup, even though technically a higher proportion of the requisite games were played.
There are players and short careers involved here; recognition should be given to all of Leinster's players and coaches for what they achieved this season. They deserve it. Nobody else does.
But winning our conference dosen't give us the title (ala Liverpool). Just a home semi. A final v Edinburgh is the minimum requirement for a semi acceptable outcome. And we should play it in Murrayfield, just to make it hard.
You know I'm going to lose,
And gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby, I don't want to live FOREVER!
There is a third option. Recommence the season next January/February and play it out. Award the title whoever wins the 19/20/21 season final.
This is not going away anytime soon. If we are surprised and sporting events are allowed to commence in, say, September, well then we can start a pre-season and play out a special set of inter-pros and internationals or something similar to fill the gap until Jan/Feb, when you recommence the season proper.
For the Premier League and Champions League it makes sense to play games behind closed doors. For the Pro14 and ERCC it doesn't: match-day revenue is too important and they would be playing at a loss. Realistically, unless broadcasters increase the amount they can pay for TV rights (why would they and how could they?) there is little chance of playing games behind closed doors.
There is a third option. Recommence the season next January/February and play it out. Award the title whoever wins the 19/20/21 season final.
This is not going away anytime soon. If we are surprised and sporting events are allowed to commence in, say, September, well then we can start a pre-season and play out a special set of inter-pros and internationals or something similar to fill the gap until Jan/Feb, when you recommence the season proper.
For the Premier League and Champions League it makes sense to play games behind closed doors. For the Pro14 and ERCC it doesn't: match-day revenue is too important and they would be playing at a loss. Realistically, unless broadcasters increase the amount they can pay for TV rights (why would they and how could they?) there is little chance of playing games behind closed doors.
Dave Cahill wrote:
No, I think I represented you quite accurately .
Why? Feel free to take it to PM if you'd like. But you're always happy to bullishly back a claim rather than seeing the other side of the argument so I'm keen to hear Dave Cahills latest justification on why he feel's his opinion is the most valid.
Last edited by arsebiscuits1 on April 30th, 2020, 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dave Cahill wrote:
No, I think I represented you quite accurately .
Why? Feel free to take it to PM if you'd like.
You've made the same point in a few different locations across the net and gotten similar responses - I think this is definitely a case of you not communicating correctly.
Dave Cahill wrote:
No, I think I represented you quite accurately .
Why? Feel free to take it to PM if you'd like.
You've made the same point in a few different locations across the net and gotten similar responses - I think this is definitely a case of you not communicating correctly.
Really? I feel I've been very consistent with my stance
lotmc wrote:Fully appreciate that there are bigger issues in the world right now, but on the singular consideration of whether there should be no name, with just an asterisk beside the 2019/20 Pro 14 season champions, or the name of the team that were head and shoulders above all others in the competition, I will go with my natural bias and argue that Leinster should be given the award ... there are players and short careers involved here; recognition should be given to all of Leinster's players and coaches for what they achieved this season. They deserve it. Nobody else does.
blockhead wrote:But winning our conference dosen't give us the title (ala Liverpool). Just a home semi. A final v Edinburgh is the minimum requirement for a semi acceptable outcome. And we should play it in Murrayfield, just to make it hard.
Thats the crux of the matter for me, it is neither fair nor consistent to award a title based upon points won for a competition where the title isn't awarded based upon points won. Points won don't even decide the playoffs in and of themselves.
joooooe wrote:There is a third option. Recommence the season next January/February and play it out. Award the title whoever wins the 19/20/21 season final.
It's an option, but it can't work in isolation as the teams won't have any competition income for an entire year Some sort of local competition perhaps over what remains of 2020 - an Irish Interpro series played home and away (which would also take care of the problem of players being unavailable due to refixed international games) with a final in the Aviva and a Welsh-Scots series on similar lines
