Pack size problems moving forward?

[wixfjord]

VDF's carrying isn't good enough to be one of the top 7s in the world. He hasn't as many strings to his bow as the top 5-6 opensides globally, which is no shame, but it is a reality.

He's physically not in the same league as some of the backrows we've had over the years.

He's oppressive defensively though and he's much better than an 'average' European player. Has had a fantastic season.

But he would be one of the people I'd be thinking of personally when I think about a potential lack of power in our pack. You're relying a lot on your 6 and 8 to carry (which is partly why POM, VDF, Stander really doesn't work!).

[ronk]

VDF is a different style openside. Many Irish fans expect Wallace or O'Brien. They did carries where fans would wonder how did they do that.

You won't get that with VDF and hence you need a different balance back row. Doesn't mean he's not a good player, but it does make it hard to balance a back row with him and POM.

[TMC]

No one throws digs anymore, you live for late tackles and smashing someone getting up at the edge of a ruck. And we don’t bother with that either.

Great clip btw Hugo, some big hits going in and a really lovely one from Ryan to force the knock after a bad, bad missed touch that was quickly forgotten about.

We played against the biggest of the big teams (probably the most powerful club sides ever) and we usually did ok. Even the 19 final could have gone differently, they had 7 players who made 18 or more tackles. We were missing a fair few players and carrying guys with niggles. SOB, Toner and McGrath all missed the RWC.

We did cope well against some of the most powerful club sides ever, that's true. But in Saracens in 2019 were the most powerful club side ever and despite a valiant effort, we were eventually found wanting. No shame in it but we might have stood a better chance if we had had a giant beast of a second-row; even ignoring that one match, more generally I think our team could objectively be improved by having one such second-row in that mould.

For me the 2019 final was lost in the 5 minutes either side of halftime because of poor game management and the criminal butchering of a massive overlap. It wasn’t lost because of a lack of size up front.

[neiliog93]

I never said it was only lost because of a lack of size, but it definitely contributed to it. They dominated the collisions, especially in the second half, and just shut us out of the game with their physical dominance.

[Peg Leg]

I broadly agree with you - the days of forwards getting away with throwing digs are long over.

I do think that Schmidt's teams were almost too disciplined at times, and not in the obvious sense that the game plan was too structured and prescribed. I mean more in the sense that we were too afraid of giving away penalties.

Nathan Hines, Leo Cullen and Shane Jennings were all in Schmidt's team.

[neiliog93]

I broadly agree with you - the days of forwards getting away with throwing digs are long over.

I do think that Schmidt's teams were almost too disciplined at times, and not in the obvious sense that the game plan was too structured and prescribed. I mean more in the sense that we were too afraid of giving away penalties.

Nathan Hines, Leo Cullen and Shane Jennings were all in Schmidt's team.

I should have said Schmidt's Ireland team.

[Peg Leg]

I broadly agree with you - the days of forwards getting away with throwing digs are long over.

I do think that Schmidt's teams were almost too disciplined at times, and not in the obvious sense that the game plan was too structured and prescribed. I mean more in the sense that we were too afraid of giving away penalties.

Nathan Hines, Leo Cullen and Shane Jennings were all in Schmidt's team.

I should have said Schmidt's Ireland team.

Gotcha, totally different. Agree and I think Joe did too, right up until the RWC when he opted to bring "an enforcer" who... well, it didn't quite work out.

[Twist]

I never said it was only lost because of a lack of size, but it definitely contributed to it. They dominated the collisions, especially in the second half, and just shut us out of the game with their physical dominance.

Yeah, I agree with the notion that we lost it either side of half time, but I think with a dominant pack we could have recovered from that.

[Morf]

I never said it was only lost because of a lack of size, but it definitely contributed to it. They dominated the collisions, especially in the second half, and just shut us out of the game with their physical dominance.

Yeah, I agree with the notion that we lost it either side of half time, but I think with a dominant pack we could have recovered from that.

How many teams are matching Billy V for size though?

Pick up Jason Taumalolo from NRL maybe.

[wixfjord]

Those potential pack size issues have been eased by the news we've signed up some beefy Saffer blindside during the lockdown.

He looks weirdly familiar...

[Morf]

Be interesting to see Leavy after a long time to work on upper body.

For a 7 to have that much time to work on shoulder integrity can't be anything but good career wise.

[mildlyinterested]

He can be spotted in the videos posted yesterday.

[neiliog93]

Those potential pack size issues have been eased by the news we've signed up some beefy Saffer blindside during the lockdown.

He looks weirdly familiar...

Packed on a lot of muscle by the looks of things, will hopefully make him a bit more powerful and durable. Looks a bit weird actually because his shoulders are so narrow for that amount of muscle.

[blockhead]

Bit of a tangent, but this is data from rugbypass on height and weight across the 3 leagues.

Total Forwards
Top 14: 1.89m (6ft 2ins)/ 112kgs (17st 9lbs)
Premiership: 1.89m (6ft 2ins)/ 113kgs (17st 11lbs)
PRO14: 1.89m (6ft 2ins)/ 111kgs (17st 7lbs)

Total Backs
Top 14 1.82m (6ft)/ 90kgs (14st 2lbs)
Premiership 1.825m (6ft)/ 93kgs (14st 9lbs)
PRO14 1.83m (6ft)/ 91.5kgs (14st 6lbs)

Total
Top 14: 185.5m (6ft 1in)/ 101kgs (15st 13lbs)
Premiership: 1.86m (6ft 1in)/ 103kgs (16st 3lbs)
PRO14: 1.86m (6ft 1in) / 101kgs (15st 13lbs)

Loosehead prop
Top 14: 1.83m (6ft)/ 118kgs (18st 8lbs)
Premiership: 1.84m (6ft)/ 117kgs (18st 6lbs)
PRO14: 1.84m (6ft)/ 115kgs (18st 1lbs)
Hooker
Top 14: 1.81m (5ft 11ins)/ 107kgs (16st 12lbs)
Premiership: 1.82 (6ft 0ins)/ 106kgs (16st 10lbs)
PRO14: 1.83m (6ft 0ins)/ 106kgs (16st 10lbs)
Tighthead prop
Top 14: 1.85m (6ft 1ins)/ 118kgs(18st 8lbs)
Premiership: 1.87m (6ft 2ins)/ 121kgs (19st)
PRO14: 1.85m (6ft 1ins)/ 118kgs (18st 8lbs)
Lock
Top 14: 2m (6ft 7ins) / 117.5kgs (18st 7lbs)
Premiership: 1.98m (6ft 6ins) / 117.7kgs (18st 8lbs)
PRO14: 1.98m (6ft 6ins)/ 114kgs (17st 13lbs)
Flanker
Top 14:
No7: 1.92m (6ft 4ins)/ 107kgs
No6: 1.92m (6ft 4ins)/ 105kgs
Overall: 1.92m (6ft 4ins)/ 106kgs (16st 10lbs)
Premiership
No7: 1.87m (6ft 2ins)/ 105kgs (16st 7lbs)
No6: Avg. 1.95m (6ft 5ins)/ 113kgs (17st 11lbs)
Overall: 1.91m (6ft 3ins)/ 109kgs (17st 2lbs)
PRO14
No7: 1.88m (6ft 2ins)/ 104kgs(16st 5lbs)
No6: 1.91m (6ft 3ins)/ 109kgs (17st 2lbs)
Overall: 1.895m (6ft 3ins)/ 106.5kgs (16st 11lbs)
No8
Top 14: 1.91m (6ft 3ins)/ 113kgs (17st 11lbs)
Premiership: 1.9m (6ft 3ins)/ 113kgs (17st 11lbs)
PRO14 : 1.91m (6ft 3ins)/ 108kgs (17st)
Scrum-half
Top 14: 1.76m (5ft 9ins)/ 79kgs (12st 6lbs)
Premiership: 1.76m (5ft 9ins)/ 84kgs (13st 3lbs)
PRO14: 1.77m (5ft 10ins)/ 84kgs (13st 3lbs)
Fly-half
Top 14: 1.82m (6ft)/ 88kgs (13st 12lbs)
Premiership: 1.82m (6ft)/ 90kgs (14st 2lbs)
PRO14: 1.84m (6ft)/ 90kgs (14st 2lbs)
Inside centre
Top 14: 1.84m (6ft)/ 97kgs (15st 4lbs)
Premiership: 1.84m (6ft)/ 101kgs (16st)
PRO14: 1.86m (6ft 1in)/ 99.5kgs (15st 9lbs)
Outside centre
Top 14: 1.84m (6ft)/ 94kgs (14st 11lbs)
Premiership: 1.87m (6ft 2ins)/ 99kgs (15st 8lbs)
PRO14: 1.83m (6ft)/ 94kgs (14st 11lbs)
Wingers
Top 14:
Left wing: 1.83m (6ft)/ 90kgs (14st 2lbs)
Right wing: 1.84m (6ft)/ 91kgs (14st 5lbs)
Overall: 1.835m (6ft)/ 90.5kgs (14st 4lbs)
Premiership:
Left wing: 1.84m (6ft)/ 95kgs (14st 13lbs)
Right wing: 1.84m (6ft)/ 96kgs (15st 2lbs)
Overall: 1.84m (6ft)/ 95.5kgs (15st1lb)
PRO14:
Left wing: 1.83m (6ft)/ 90kgs (14st 2lbs)
Right wing: 1.84m (6ft)/ 93kgs (14st 9lbs)
Overall: 1.835m (6ft)/ 91.5kgs (14st 8lbs)
Fullback
Top 14: 1.83m (6ft)/ 91kgs (14st 5lbs)
Premiership: 1.82m (6ft)/ 90kgs (14st 2lbs)
PRO14: 1.84m (6ft)/ 90kgs (14st 2lbs)
Total Forwards
Top 14 1.89m (6ft 2ins)/ 112kgs (17st 9lbs)
Premiership 1.89m (6ft 2ins)/ 113kgs (17st 11lbs)
PRO14 1.89m (6ft 2ins)/ 111kgs (17st 7lbs)
Overall Backs
Top 14 1.82m (6ft)/ 90kgs (14st 2lbs)
Premiership 1.825m (6ft)/ 93kgs (14st 9lbs)
PRO14 1.83m (6ft)/ 91.5kgs (14st 6lbs)
Total
Top 14 185.5m (6ft 1in)/ 101kgs (15st 13lbs)
Premiership 1.86m (6ft 1in)/ 103kgs (16st 3lbs)
PRO14 1.86m (6ft 1in) / 101kgs (15st 13lbs)

[Oldschoolsocks]

Without Zebo the T14 average for fullback would probably be around 88kgs

[riocard911]

Without Zebo the T14 average for fullback would probably be around 88kgs

Brilliant!!!!