Leinster Squad 20-21

[neiliog93]

Penny is a solid 5'11"/6'0". Opensides don't actually need to be 6'2". George Smith, Michael Hooper and Heinrich Brussouw are 5'11", Phil Waugh is 5'9", and David Pocock is variously listed as 6'0" or 6'1". All of those guys were world class in their position at their peak (Hooper still is). Other examples of 'not particularly tall' elite (or at least, near elite) level opensides would be Matt Todd and Tom Curry (6'1"), Hamish Watson and Kwagga Smith (5'11"), and even Chris Cloete (5'9"). The list goes on.

Also, the recent change in emphasis of the laws which favour the jackler at the ruck actually suits shorter opensides.

Penny is disproportionately powerful to his size (in the same sense as Hooper and Brussouw), is quick, a strong carrier, a hard hitter, and has a high work rate, good hands, and an ideal physique for jackling, and is also noticeably aggressive and displays apparent leadership potential, etc., etc. There's not much he doesn't have. Physically, while smaller than our other back-row prospects, he appears to be more athletic, more powerful (in a pound-for-pound sense), faster, and more aggressive.

[Keith]

Very early to be calling Penny potentially world class. I don't think Ireland's problem is the size of our pack (although it wouldn't hurt to have a heavier pack), we were on top of the world in 2018 with a similar sized pack but our players, especially our top performers form fell off a cliff for whatever reason. We still haven't replaced the lads from 2018 (and the lads still havent returned to their 2018 form) hence why they still haven't been dropped for the most part.

[neiliog93]

Very early to be calling Penny potentially world class. I don't think Ireland's problem is the size of our pack (although it wouldn't hurt to have a heavier pack), we were on top of the world in 2018 with a similar sized pack but our players, especially our top performers form fell off a cliff for whatever reason. We still haven't replaced the lads from 2018 (and the lads still havent returned to their 2018 form) hence why they still haven't been dropped for the most part.

For playing the structured, collision and phase-based Schdmidt gameplan, we could have done with a big, bruising, athletic second-row of 120kg+, and a beefier, 115-120kg + option at number 8.

With the new emphasis at the ruck which favours the jackler, a possession-based, phase-by-phase approach no longer works (for anyone). You basically have to offload more often and be generally riskier when in possession (rather than trying to retain possession through numerous phases, which is now very difficult), and/or kick the ball away more often. Look at England, New Zealand and South Africa for proof.

[elephantman]

I’d be pretty shocked if Leinster let Penny go. Leinster will fight tooth and nail to keep him.

I wonder will Leinster consider letting Conan go if they are forced to lose an 8. Conan is 29 next summer and is very injury prone.

[Keith]

Very early to be calling Penny potentially world class. I don't think Ireland's problem is the size of our pack (although it wouldn't hurt to have a heavier pack), we were on top of the world in 2018 with a similar sized pack but our players, especially our top performers form fell off a cliff for whatever reason. We still haven't replaced the lads from 2018 (and the lads still havent returned to their 2018 form) hence why they still haven't been dropped for the most part.

For playing the structured, collision and phase-based Schdmidt gameplan, we could have done with a big, bruising, athletic second-row of 120kg+, and a beefier, 115-120kg + option at number 8.

With the new emphasis at the ruck which favours the jackler, a possession-based, phase-by-phase approach no longer works (for anyone). You basically have to offload more often and be generally riskier when in possession (rather than trying to retain possession through numerous phases, which is now very difficult), and/or kick the ball away more often. Look at England, New Zealand and South Africa for proof.

I do agree it helps, absouletly no doubt about that, but we didn't have any of that under Schmidt for 2018. We had Stander at 8 (whose carrying is completely nullified at international level) with Toner and Ryan in the 2nd row when we beat NZ for instance. Our few world class players were in form and being complimented by the rest of the squad. We would be better off finding out why our players form fell off a cliff rather then trying to find a juiced up forward, which Ireland has always lacked.

[Serb]

How many Leinster players have been forced to move mid contract? Carberry is the only one I can think of.

Conway had a year on his contract too when he moved to Munster too. Possibly Nick McCarthy too.

[munster#1]

How many Leinster players have been forced to move mid contract? Carberry is the only one I can think of.

Conway had a year on his contract too when he moved to Munster too. Possibly Nick McCarthy too.

I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that Conway requested to leave?
No idea about McCarty?

[Peg Leg]

They've got David McCann coming through at No.8. He looked a real blue chip prospect when captaining the U-20's last season. They should be looking to back him rather than importing yet another solution.

He's a fantastic player but is still only 20, and not an immediate replacement for their best player.
Deegan would go straight into the first 15.

If he comes back from the ACL and he's interested in a move it's a no brainer.

With less contracts and less money to go around it makes a lot of sense from an IRFU POV too.

Rhys would be another one I'd look at if I were Ulster. He'd be an incredible signing and give them an edge that their pack still lacks a bit.

Generally best not to try to replace a player like that like-for-like. Get other guys to do more carrying rather than find another elite carrier.

My thought's exactly, POM heading north is the best medicine.

[wixfjord]

They've got David McCann coming through at No.8. He looked a real blue chip prospect when captaining the U-20's last season. They should be looking to back him rather than importing yet another solution.

He's a fantastic player but is still only 20, and not an immediate replacement for their best player.
Deegan would go straight into the first 15.

If he comes back from the ACL and he's interested in a move it's a no brainer.

With less contracts and less money to go around it makes a lot of sense from an IRFU POV too.

Rhys would be another one I'd look at if I were Ulster. He'd be an incredible signing and give them an edge that their pack still lacks a bit.

Generally best not to try to replace a player like that like-for-like. Get other guys to do more carrying rather than find another elite carrier.

That's not really dealing with reality though. None of their back row are in any way powerful carriers. Asking them to 'just carry a bit more and a bit better' isn't a great strategy. Now you night get a bit more out of the Rea bros, but Jones, Jordi, Reidy, Timony aren't going to turn into Billy V over night.

They need to make up the power deficit of losing Coetzee, which means Deegan might seem the obvious choice but may find it tough going in a pack without the carriers that we have.

[Peg Leg]

Penny is a solid 5'11"/6'0". Opensides don't actually need to be 6'2". George Smith, Michael Hooper and Heinrich Brussouw are 5'11", Phil Waugh is 5'9", and David Pocock is variously listed as 6'0" or 6'1". All of those guys were world class in their position at their peak (Hooper still is). Other examples of 'not particularly tall' elite (or at least, near elite) level opensides would be Matt Todd and Tom Curry (6'1"), Hamish Watson and Kwagga Smith (5'11"), and even Chris Cloete (5'9"). The list goes on.

Also, the recent change in emphasis of the laws which favour the jackler at the ruck actually suits shorter opensides.

Penny is disproportionately powerful to his size (in the same sense as Hooper and Brussouw), is quick, a strong carrier, a hard hitter, and has a high work rate, good hands, and an ideal physique for jackling, and is also noticeably aggressive and displays apparent leadership potential, etc., etc. There's not much he doesn't have. Physically, while smaller than our other back-row prospects, he appears to be more athletic, more powerful (in a pound-for-pound sense), faster, and more aggressive.

Brussow is exactly who he reminds me of

[munster#1]

He's a fantastic player but is still only 20, and not an immediate replacement for their best player.
Deegan would go straight into the first 15.

If he comes back from the ACL and he's interested in a move it's a no brainer.

With less contracts and less money to go around it makes a lot of sense from an IRFU POV too.

Rhys would be another one I'd look at if I were Ulster. He'd be an incredible signing and give them an edge that their pack still lacks a bit.

Generally best not to try to replace a player like that like-for-like. Get other guys to do more carrying rather than find another elite carrier.

My thought's exactly, POM heading north is the best medicine.

In all seriousness you have to feel for Ulster.
They haven’t just lost a skilful player, they have lost their main ball carrier.

They are losing the player who gets them over the gain line more than any other player.
If they do not sign a big ball carrier to replace him, then they need to either hope that another player steps up to take over this responsibility, or make 2 signings.

To state that it’s not best practice to replace like for like is a very simplistic statement, and lacks any consideration for what Coetzee actually brings to the party.

[ronk]

To say you have to sign a carbon copy of a player with a rare and highly sought skill set is simplistic. And it's also a consistently losing formula.

Teams should adapt to changing circumstances rather than immediately try to do the same again without the players to pull it off.

When Ulster lost Pienaar, they didn't go to market with everything they had. They signed a guy struggling to get gametime at Connacht. When Ross Byrne plays we dont ask him to try to be Sexton.

Ulster will have to play wthout relying on someone who can reliably punch through the best defensive lines, or they can find another unicorn.

[deco]

Is David Nucifora posting on here under an alias to soften us up before another raid?

[wixfjord]

To say you have to sign a carbon copy of a player with a rare and highly sought skill set is simplistic.

Nobody is saying that.

Ulster will have to play wthout relying on someone who can reliably punch through the best defensive lines, or they can find another unicorn.

So just don't bother trying to replace your most important player and hope some of the other guys, who have consistently shown they are not top level carriers can just 'up their levels'?

That's not really a strategy is it?!

Like I'm not sure what you're actually arguing here?

It seems to be 'Ulster should just cough and move on, don't bother trying to replace Coetzee's ball carrying ability'?

[Keith]

Is David Nucifora posting on here under an alias to soften us up before another raid?

I think so. He seems to have a love in for Penny moving away from Leinster too, despite him getting loads of game time the last few years.

[munster#1]

Is David Nucifora posting on here under an alias to soften us up before another raid?

I think so. He seems to have a love in for Penny moving away from Leinster too, despite him getting loads of game time the last few years.

The plan is to start the rumour that Penny is going to Munster, then at the last minute send him to Ulster instead.
That way Leinster fans will accept the move without complaint, as it is great that he didn’t go to Munster.

[Jcahill1]

Penny is a solid 5'11"/6'0". Opensides don't actually need to be 6'2". George Smith, Michael Hooper and Heinrich Brussouw are 5'11", Phil Waugh is 5'9", and David Pocock is variously listed as 6'0" or 6'1". All of those guys were world class in their position at their peak (Hooper still is). Other examples of 'not particularly tall' elite (or at least, near elite) level opensides would be Matt Todd and Tom Curry (6'1"), Hamish Watson and Kwagga Smith (5'11"), and even Chris Cloete (5'9"). The list goes on.

Also, the recent change in emphasis of the laws which favour the jackler at the ruck actually suits shorter opensides.

Penny is disproportionately powerful to his size (in the same sense as Hooper and Brussouw), is quick, a strong carrier, a hard hitter, and has a high work rate, good hands, and an ideal physique for jackling, and is also noticeably aggressive and displays apparent leadership potential, etc., etc. There's not much he doesn't have. Physically, while smaller than our other back-row prospects, he appears to be more athletic, more powerful (in a pound-for-pound sense), faster, and more aggressive.

Fair enough, I had it in my head he was 5'9 and pushing it. I'd agree that you don't need to be huge, but I had him pegged as being quite a bit shorter than he was. Happy to be wrong in this case.

[dropkick]

Penny is a solid 5'11"/6'0". Opensides don't actually need to be 6'2". George Smith, Michael Hooper and Heinrich Brussouw are 5'11", Phil Waugh is 5'9", and David Pocock is variously listed as 6'0" or 6'1". All of those guys were world class in their position at their peak (Hooper still is). Other examples of 'not particularly tall' elite (or at least, near elite) level opensides would be Matt Todd and Tom Curry (6'1"), Hamish Watson and Kwagga Smith (5'11"), and even Chris Cloete (5'9"). The list goes on.

Also, the recent change in emphasis of the laws which favour the jackler at the ruck actually suits shorter opensides.

Penny is disproportionately powerful to his size (in the same sense as Hooper and Brussouw), is quick, a strong carrier, a hard hitter, and has a high work rate, good hands, and an ideal physique for jackling, and is also noticeably aggressive and displays apparent leadership potential, etc., etc. There's not much he doesn't have. Physically, while smaller than our other back-row prospects, he appears to be more athletic, more powerful (in a pound-for-pound sense), faster, and more aggressive.

It's a bit of a conundrum for Leo. He can't keep them all happy. He's choosing between 2 ireland players and a promising youngster. From what I've seen I think Penny has the highest ceiling and it would be foolish to let him go. I think VDF will fall down the pecking order in the next season or two.


If Leavy moves to 6 then there might be a chance to keep VDF, Connors and Penny happy.

[fourthirtythree]

I can see VdF being the next Jordi. Who had a good game against Connacht. As did Madigan.

[Keith]

Is David Nucifora posting on here under an alias to soften us up before another raid?

I think so. He seems to have a love in for Penny moving away from Leinster too, despite him getting loads of game time the last few years.

The plan is to start the rumour that Penny is going to Munster, then at the last minute send him to Ulster instead.
That way Leinster fans will accept the move without complaint, as it is great that he didn’t go to Munster.

You would be devastated no doubt.