Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

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neiliog93
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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by neiliog93 »

We've lost Tomane, McFadden and Salanoa and as a squad are weaker than last season. They've gained two world class, world cup winning boks, Salanoa and Gallagher, and as a squad are significantly stronger. They'll be missing Carbery but we'll be missing two of our three best forwards (Leavy, Ryan). O
Meanwhile our momentum from a perfect season has been disrupted.

In terms of overall strength, Munster appear to be roughly at Leinster's level for the first time in many years, but the proof will be in the pudding. I wouldn't read too much into the result from the first game in the Aviva, but we're likely to play them again in a semi-final and if they won that game it would definitely signal that something meaningful has changed.
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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by mildlyinterested »

think you are overrating Salanoa's impact on munsters squad quality right now... and McFadden hasn't left the Leinster squad... yet.

wixfjord
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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by wixfjord »

Leavy is back right? Didn't McBryde say he'd be available for selection?
Wouldn't select him personally mind.

I think if you look at overall squad strength and coaching line-up (on paper at least) Munster have definitely closed the gap.

They've also addressed one of their biggest failings - relying on Kilcoyne and Stander to carry 20+ times a game each and give them momentum. Both Snyman and De Allende will help with this.

The biggest differences at the moment are probably our front row and squad depth.

Obviously our style and the clarity of what we're trying to do is stronger, but that might be diminished by the big gap in game time since March.

If Munster can overcome us in a semi, they could easily steal a league which would be a big shot in the arm and shift in momentum.

Which is why the next two months are so, so important for us to extend our dominance imo.

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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by leinsterforever »

neiliog93 wrote:
August 9th, 2020, 11:59 am
We've lost Tomane, McFadden and Salanoa and as a squad are weaker than last season. They've gained two world class, world cup winning boks, Salanoa and Gallagher, and as a squad are significantly stronger. They'll be missing Carbery but we'll be missing two of our three best forwards (Leavy, Ryan). O
Meanwhile our momentum from a perfect season has been disrupted.

In terms of overall strength, Munster appear to be roughly at Leinster's level for the first time in many years, but the proof will be in the pudding. I wouldn't read too much into the result from the first game in the Aviva, but we're likely to play them again in a semi-final and if they won that game it would definitely signal that something meaningful has changed.
Are you basing that purely on players in/out? I think it'd be a bit simplistic to do that because there's a largish cohort of players who are better options now than they were at the start of the 2019/2020 season. Milne, Ronan Kelleher, Baird, Murphy, Connors, Doris, Osborne, Harry Byrne, Tommy O'Brien and Hugo Keenan would fall into this category. Dooley, Dan Sheehan, Molony, Penny, Jimmy O'Brien and Cian Kelleher are arguable.

Yes, some quality players have departed, but if you want to be able to promote from the academy to the senior squad, which you have to if you want to sustain from within, then other players have to be removed from the squad. The squad can't really be much bigger than around the 45 mark.

Of course, of the current squad, there are a few who are another year past their prime as well - the likes of Healy, Cronin, Fardy, Sexton. You'd have to take that into account when comparing squad strength between now and before.

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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by Oldschool »

leinsterforever wrote:
August 9th, 2020, 5:17 pm
neiliog93 wrote:
August 9th, 2020, 11:59 am
We've lost Tomane, McFadden and Salanoa and as a squad are weaker than last season. They've gained two world class, world cup winning boks, Salanoa and Gallagher, and as a squad are significantly stronger. They'll be missing Carbery but we'll be missing two of our three best forwards (Leavy, Ryan). O
Meanwhile our momentum from a perfect season has been disrupted.

In terms of overall strength, Munster appear to be roughly at Leinster's level for the first time in many years, but the proof will be in the pudding. I wouldn't read too much into the result from the first game in the Aviva, but we're likely to play them again in a semi-final and if they won that game it would definitely signal that something meaningful has changed.
Are you basing that purely on players in/out? I think it'd be a bit simplistic to do that because there's a largish cohort of players who are better options now than they were at the start of the 2019/2020 season. Milne, Ronan Kelleher, Baird, Murphy, Connors, Doris, Osborne, Harry Byrne, Tommy O'Brien and Hugo Keenan would fall into this category. Dooley, Dan Sheehan, Molony, Penny, Jimmy O'Brien and Cian Kelleher are arguable.

Yes, some quality players have departed, but if you want to be able to promote from the academy to the senior squad, which you have to if you want to sustain from within, then other players have to be removed from the squad. The squad can't really be much bigger than around the 45 mark.

Of course, of the current squad, there are a few who are another year past their prime as well - the likes of Healy, Cronin, Fardy, Sexton. You'd have to take that into account when comparing squad strength between now and before.
45 is a small squad considering the number of players we lose to international games.
This is going to be especially so given the rescheduled 6Ns games and pre-Christmas 8N tournament.
We should have our begging bowl at the ready.
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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by leinsterforever »

Oldschool wrote:
August 9th, 2020, 6:47 pm
leinsterforever wrote:
August 9th, 2020, 5:17 pm
neiliog93 wrote:
August 9th, 2020, 11:59 am
We've lost Tomane, McFadden and Salanoa and as a squad are weaker than last season. They've gained two world class, world cup winning boks, Salanoa and Gallagher, and as a squad are significantly stronger. They'll be missing Carbery but we'll be missing two of our three best forwards (Leavy, Ryan). O
Meanwhile our momentum from a perfect season has been disrupted.

In terms of overall strength, Munster appear to be roughly at Leinster's level for the first time in many years, but the proof will be in the pudding. I wouldn't read too much into the result from the first game in the Aviva, but we're likely to play them again in a semi-final and if they won that game it would definitely signal that something meaningful has changed.
Are you basing that purely on players in/out? I think it'd be a bit simplistic to do that because there's a largish cohort of players who are better options now than they were at the start of the 2019/2020 season. Milne, Ronan Kelleher, Baird, Murphy, Connors, Doris, Osborne, Harry Byrne, Tommy O'Brien and Hugo Keenan would fall into this category. Dooley, Dan Sheehan, Molony, Penny, Jimmy O'Brien and Cian Kelleher are arguable.

Yes, some quality players have departed, but if you want to be able to promote from the academy to the senior squad, which you have to if you want to sustain from within, then other players have to be removed from the squad. The squad can't really be much bigger than around the 45 mark.

Of course, of the current squad, there are a few who are another year past their prime as well - the likes of Healy, Cronin, Fardy, Sexton. You'd have to take that into account when comparing squad strength between now and before.
45 is a small squad considering the number of players we lose to international games.
This is going to be especially so given the rescheduled 6Ns games and pre-Christmas 8N tournament.
We should have our begging bowl at the ready.
It'll be 46 actually, once McFadden and Kearney depart. Anything larger would be unwieldy, I think. What they're doing now in terms of backing the academy players to step up and fill gaps is working well.

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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by cormac »

leinsterforever wrote:
August 9th, 2020, 5:17 pm
neiliog93 wrote:
August 9th, 2020, 11:59 am
We've lost Tomane, McFadden and Salanoa and as a squad are weaker than last season. They've gained two world class, world cup winning boks, Salanoa and Gallagher, and as a squad are significantly stronger. They'll be missing Carbery but we'll be missing two of our three best forwards (Leavy, Ryan). O
Meanwhile our momentum from a perfect season has been disrupted.

In terms of overall strength, Munster appear to be roughly at Leinster's level for the first time in many years, but the proof will be in the pudding. I wouldn't read too much into the result from the first game in the Aviva, but we're likely to play them again in a semi-final and if they won that game it would definitely signal that something meaningful has changed.
Are you basing that purely on players in/out? I think it'd be a bit simplistic to do that because there's a largish cohort of players who are better options now than they were at the start of the 2019/2020 season. Milne, Ronan Kelleher, Baird, Murphy, Connors, Doris, Osborne, Harry Byrne, Tommy O'Brien and Hugo Keenan would fall into this category. Dooley, Dan Sheehan, Molony, Penny, Jimmy O'Brien and Cian Kelleher are arguable.

Yes, some quality players have departed, but if you want to be able to promote from the academy to the senior squad, which you have to if you want to sustain from within, then other players have to be removed from the squad. The squad can't really be much bigger than around the 45 mark.

Of course, of the current squad, there are a few who are another year past their prime as well - the likes of Healy, Cronin, Fardy, Sexton. You'd have to take that into account when comparing squad strength between now and before.
We're also getting Leavy and Conan back. Two players who haven't featured for over a year.
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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by elephantman »

Good point. Conan hasn’t played for Leinster since May 2019.

Gonna be very interesting to see who is our first choice number 8..

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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by joooooe »

Oldschool wrote:
August 9th, 2020, 6:47 pm
We should have our begging bowl at the ready.
No we shouldn't, unless a there's a prop injury clusterf*ck.

Leinster have managed to develop a level of self-sufficiency that ensures the "next cab off the rank" is always ready to slot into the team (or, more accurately, where management are always willing to trust the "next cab" to play, whether he is ready or not).

The idea that an injury to a couple of senior squad players in the same position would force us into the market is something we have hopefully outgrown. That attitude to squad development is rarely successful in the short-term and destabilising in the medium- to long-term (Exhibit A: Albie Matthewson, m'lud).

Brad Thorn is the last example of a player being brought in short-term where Leinster management looked at the squad and realised there was no cab at the rank. It worked then, but it could have backfired. Hindsight is 20:20.

I would hope that if a similar situation arose today we could promote from within even if a player of Thorn's ability were available. The long-term benefits of that for the organisation are incalculable and the short-term costs (financial and otherwise) are avoided.

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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by mildlyinterested »

Munster Squad update: https://www.munsterrugby.ie/2020/08/...full-training/

It appears that Salanoa, Beirne, Carbery, Goggin and Haley will be unavailable for the game.

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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by FLIP »

mildlyinterested wrote:
August 10th, 2020, 3:11 pm
Munster Squad update: https://www.munsterrugby.ie/2020/08/...full-training/

It appears that Salanoa, Beirne, Carbery, Goggin and Haley will be unavailable for the game.
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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by TMC »

Something about all this stinks and I suspect it will come out in time. There is no way Munster can afford these players (with their stadium debt) without something very dodgy happening at the IRFU level in the background. In essence there is no longer a level playing field and they are being favoured over the other three provinces to a massive extent. I want to understand how are they bankrolling all the signings in Shelbyville? How can they buy another South African to replace the cr@p flat track bully they bought when they signed Kelyn. overrated and only shows his “power” when cleaning out significantly smaller men?
Leinster’s success has had direct financial benefits for the IRFU - who look like they have expanded their policy of directly cannibalising Leinster and are now also ploughing money they receive from Leinster’s success into a non-performing Munster. Why favour them over 2 other non performing provinces? O ’Mahony & Earls are the only links to the old boot and bollock Munster, everyone else is a blow in trying to buy in to that ethos. Murray is the last Munster born and bred player to become a guaranteed starter for Ireland & its 9 years since he made his debut. The IRFU have also agreed to release these very expensive newly acquired baubles to International rugby? At lest the French clubs are up front and say well here are the dollars, kiss the international career goodbye. The IRFU are paying for 20% of the starting team for one of their competitors? Stinks to high heaven.
This season there will be 6/7 Munster born bred and developed players in their first choice XV, that is where Munster are at. Culture eats strategy every time - if you dilute your team and ethos to the extent that over half your starting team have no link to the culture and its values you are on a hiding to nothing. Munster are like Man United, obsessed with their past and with delusions of adequacy with respect to their present.

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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by blockhead »

Tis called private funding (re the new saffas).
We've had a bit of that too from time to time, it's also how we got our shiny new gym.
I'm all for it tbh, getting money into the game that is.
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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by mildlyinterested »

no sign of leavy in last two sets of training photos..

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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by mildlyinterested »

Winger Adam Byrne underwent a procedure last week on a hamstring injury and will now be out of action for up to 12 weeks.

There are no new updates on James Ryan (shoulder), Peter Dooley (shoulder), Vakh Abdaladze (back) or Dan Leavy (knee).

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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by mildlyinterested »

Lancaster on

Dan has made amazing progress, I think. But they're not involved in team sessions at the moment. Both of them, it would be a stretch, to say the least, for Dan to be involved in the Munster game. Because, obviously, the injury - with as severe as it was - and the length of time out - we had to make sure we manage him back appropriately.

"But he's been doing units and stuff; he's been doing bits and pieces; but he's still got to do full training for a full week. We're obviously just over a week away from playing Munster now.

"James has made good progress, really. I think Leo was saying that last week. He wouldn't be training with us at the moment but we're optimistic that, if things go well, that he can get towards the finals. The semi-final and finals stages, which is three or four weeks from that Munster game."

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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by riocard911 »

TMC wrote:
August 10th, 2020, 4:34 pm
Something about all this stinks and I suspect it will come out in time. There is no way Munster can afford these players (with their stadium debt) without something very dodgy happening at the IRFU level in the background. In essence there is no longer a level playing field and they are being favoured over the other three provinces to a massive extent. I want to understand how are they bankrolling all the signings in Shelbyville? How can they buy another South African to replace the cr@p flat track bully they bought when they signed Kelyn. overrated and only shows his “power” when cleaning out significantly smaller men?
Leinster’s success has had direct financial benefits for the IRFU - who look like they have expanded their policy of directly cannibalising Leinster and are now also ploughing money they receive from Leinster’s success into a non-performing Munster. Why favour them over 2 other non performing provinces? O ’Mahony & Earls are the only links to the old boot and bollock Munster, everyone else is a blow in trying to buy in to that ethos. Murray is the last Munster born and bred player to become a guaranteed starter for Ireland & its 9 years since he made his debut. The IRFU have also agreed to release these very expensive newly acquired baubles to International rugby? At lest the French clubs are up front and say well here are the dollars, kiss the international career goodbye. The IRFU are paying for 20% of the starting team for one of their competitors? Stinks to high heaven.
This season there will be 6/7 Munster born bred and developed players in their first choice XV, that is where Munster are at. Culture eats strategy every time - if you dilute your team and ethos to the extent that over half your starting team have no link to the culture and its values you are on a hiding to nothing. Munster are like Man United, obsessed with their past and with delusions of adequacy with respect to their present.
The Munster gang are already dreaming of a "seachange" à la Croker 2009 on the 22nd. They're not even "hiding in the long grass". Paulie - among others of the red persuasion - has been openly bigging up their chances of doing a job on us in Dublin for the first time in years. I hope we effin' stuff them!!!!!

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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by Gearzbox2 »

I’d 100% agree with sentiments on here relating to the “suspect” funding and where Munster are getting it for some of these players
A few things bug me big time on this front
1. munster are in serious debt with a stadium deficit budget and poor crowds to go along with it

2. How they still managed to get the irfu to sign off on these 2 signings especially when they were stacked with centres

3. Ive heard on the grape vine that Leinster were due to sign a utility back from Clermont (Toeava) I think was the guy which was then cut because of Covid due to finance which seems to be ridiculous considering Munster just got 2 500k plus a year players

On the match front, I think it’s comical that some people think Munster will have a change of the guard ala Croker 2009...we’ll probably go 50/50 starters for first 2 games, we’re already qualified and realistically using these as warm ups for a semi final

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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by deco »

Quality rant a few posts up 😀. What if IRFU aren't footing the bill for the new SA imports to the team formerly known as Munster? Rumour was that JP wouldn't put money in until Fitzgerald left, so maybe that's what happened. Certainly that's what my Munster pal says has happened. Didn't Lucifira say a few years ago that outside money was being encouraged?
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Re: Munster in the Aviva, August 22nd, 7.35pm KO

Post by mildlyinterested »

a close win with a 50/50 side in 12 days would be lovely, with a convincing win the semi to follow please. :mullet 1:

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