Ulster v Leinster Sat 29th 19:35

[Up Wexford]

Also Birch made an interesting point on de telly, when referring to this very aspect and the possibility last year of Will Connors moving to Connacht. Jackman reckons - and I too have long believed - that ambitious Leinster players, who've come through the academy etc. would prefer to be getting their five or six starts with a successful Leinster - and the best of training, S&C, living in your native province, studying in UCD, etc. etc. - than 10 or 15 in some other less successful club where they know no one and would only be journeymen. Last night and the opposition involved, with nearly half the Ulster team former Leinster players, was the proof of that particular pudding, IMO.

This is the only real argument for ambitious, successful players staying at Leinster. Strip away all the guff about salaries, Nucifora, gametime, being "from" Munster, Ulster etc, IRFU diktats etc etc. If you're good enough you'll stay, end of. We can spend reams of posts enjoyably arguing about this move and that move because we are rugby obsessives but the above post sums the whole thing up perfectly.

[joooooe]

Munster lose money, we don't.

Is Leinster Rugby a profitable entity in its own right?

Not even close.

[wixfjord]

Munster lose money, we don't.

Is Leinster Rugby a profitable entity in its own right?

Not even close.

I didn't think so!

[Ruckedtobits]

Munster lose money, we don't.

Is Leinster Rugby a profitable entity in its own right?

Nobody can ever know for certain.

National Contract values, if funded alone by Leinster, could not be afforded from current income without substantial reduction in support of Community Rugby i.e. sacking CROs etc. On the other hand without continually developing the game we wouldn't have the quality within our Academy which means we don't have to recruit highly expensive, already developed overseas players.

Overall, if necessary Leinster could probably adapt to being self-sufficient, but the ultimate cost would be to Ireland as players would leave to get success and higher salaries.

[OTT]

Also Birch made an interesting point on de telly, when referring to this very aspect and the possibility last year of Will Connors moving to Connacht. Jackman reckons - and I too have long believed - that ambitious Leinster players, who've come through the academy etc. would prefer to be getting their five or six starts with a successful Leinster - and the best of training, S&C, living in your native province, studying in UCD, etc. etc. - than 10 or 15 in some other less successful club where they know no one and would only be journeymen. Last night and the opposition involved, with nearly half the Ulster team former Leinster players, was the proof of that particular pudding, IMO.

This is the only real argument for ambitious, successful players staying at Leinster. Strip away all the guff about salaries, Nucifora, gametime, being "from" Munster, Ulster etc, IRFU diktats etc etc. If you're good enough you'll stay, end of. We can spend reams of posts enjoyably arguing about this move and that move because we are rugby obsessives but the above post sums the whole thing up perfectly.

I think that is a bit simplistic.

Look at our backrow now. We have 9 players who imo meet the 'if you're good enough you'll stay' criteria, they are all class players but realistically if you are the guy who who is good enough but not getting selected for the big games it will probably come to a time where no matter how great training is you'll back yourself to go and play for another big club/province and be a starter and push on for Ireland. We saw with Jordi Murphy he was a guy who had fallen into being a backup at Leinster but when he was needed he went into the team and played really well and started all our knockout games on the way to winning the Cup in 2018 proving he was good enough but he had decided for whatever reason (probably age and the calibre of young guys coming through) that he needed to leave to play more big games going forward.

I think it would be a miracle if we manage to keep our 9 backrowers happy going forward because they are all players who could easily slot into our first 15 imo.

[Up Wexford]

For sure, I take your point and I don't want to sound trite or simplistic. But there is so much to be said for staying in the Leinster set up as opposed to joining the one in a row champions down south, becoming a "legend" in the west, or a comfortable but inoffensive life in Belfast. I personally would take the Belfast option if I was in any of our back-rowers positions but that is why I only have an under 18s towns cup medal to my name

[Flash Gordon]

Is Leinster Rugby a profitable entity in its own right?

Not even close.

I didn't think so!

It's admittedly hard to read because of the central contracts but with Dev and Rob moving off that list I think we have one more than Munster, so not a huge difference. Obviously, the reason behind central contracts is that the IRFU control the players so it's not really an artificial subsidy in my mind. Ireland obviously benefit hugely from our Academy too. When the the central contracts are taken out of the equation we make a small profit. This year obviously is different with Covid. Our financial position is (in a normal year) much healthier than Munster.

The mortgage is being paid by the IRFU for TP which is a genuinely artificial inervention. Not having a go at them, good luck to them it is what it is and I'm sure they are working hard to rectify the player supply but not facilitating a pathway to the first team isn't helping. Hopefully that all gets rectified but it will take a while, Leinster and the league need the other provinces to be strong.

[Flash Gordon]

Also Birch made an interesting point on de telly, when referring to this very aspect and the possibility last year of Will Connors moving to Connacht. Jackman reckons - and I too have long believed - that ambitious Leinster players, who've come through the academy etc. would prefer to be getting their five or six starts with a successful Leinster - and the best of training, S&C, living in your native province, studying in UCD, etc. etc. - than 10 or 15 in some other less successful club where they know no one and would only be journeymen. Last night and the opposition involved, with nearly half the Ulster team former Leinster players, was the proof of that particular pudding, IMO.

This is the only real argument for ambitious, successful players staying at Leinster. Strip away all the guff about salaries, Nucifora, gametime, being "from" Munster, Ulster etc, IRFU diktats etc etc. If you're good enough you'll stay, end of. We can spend reams of posts enjoyably arguing about this move and that move because we are rugby obsessives but the above post sums the whole thing up perfectly.

I think that is a bit simplistic.

Look at our backrow now. We have 9 players who imo meet the 'if you're good enough you'll stay' criteria, they are all class players but realistically if you are the guy who who is good enough but not getting selected for the big games it will probably come to a time where no matter how great training is you'll back yourself to go and play for another big club/province and be a starter and push on for Ireland. We saw with Jordi Murphy he was a guy who had fallen into being a backup at Leinster but when he was needed he went into the team and played really well and started all our knockout games on the way to winning the Cup in 2018 proving he was good enough but he had decided for whatever reason (probably age and the calibre of young guys coming through) that he needed to leave to play more big games going forward.

I think it would be a miracle if we manage to keep our 9 backrowers happy going forward because they are all players who could easily slot into our first 15 imo.

I hear what you are saying on backrow forwards. Game time has never really been an issue at Leinster. The nature of the position is so attritional that players are regularly injured and/or rotated. That being said, the production line recently has been freakishly good.

[LeinsterLeader]

Will connors performance for me on sat against coetze and his amazing ability to chop tackle has made a very strong arguement for him being our 7 against sarries. The only way to stop big bruisers like vunipola etc is to stop them behind the line with ankle tackles

Really good piece on his showing at the weekend here - https://www.the42.ie/will-connors-leins ... /#comments

How he dealt with Big Marcel was interesting. Would be a big selection call to start him against Sarries but if any coaches have the sthones to do it, it's Leo/Stu.

That chop tackle on Threadwell........ Jesus Christ!

He's some man, for one man!

[mildlyinterested]

You'd wonder how long Deegan will be happy with his current role.. same with Penny.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I wasn’t a fan of the way Osborne gave up on Cooney after the intercept.

You could see Ulster lining it up a few times before they actually got one, think they might have known when we were getting ready to launch one of those big carriers like that, especially because they had people waiting to make the tackle as well as go for the intercept.

[wixfjord]

I wasn’t a fan of the way Osborne gave up on Cooney after the intercept.

You could see Ulster lining it up a few times before they actually got one, think they might have known when we were getting ready to launch one of those big carriers like that, especially because they had people waiting to make the tackle as well as go for the intercept.

I was annoyed at this too, what was he at?

Don't think he would've caught Cooney but he was close enough to at least join JOB in the chase.

Cooney showed a fair turn of foot though. JOB is fast and was fresh and still couldn't make up much ground on him.

[joooooe]

I wasn’t a fan of the way Osborne gave up on Cooney after the intercept.

You could see Ulster lining it up a few times before they actually got one, think they might have known when we were getting ready to launch one of those big carriers like that, especially because they had people waiting to make the tackle as well as go for the intercept.

I was annoyed at this too, what was he at?

Don't think he would've caught Cooney but he was close enough to at least join JOB in the chase.

Cooney showed a fair turn of foot though. JOB is fast and was fresh and still couldn't make up much ground on him.

I was a little confused by this too, but a different aspect of it. JOB was close enough 30 yards out to at least make a grab at Cooney's ankles. He didn't get any closer and then tackled him when he was going over the line, which only showed he had been close enough for the previous 30 yards. Maybe Cooney has a Christian Cullen goose step and would have evaded him but surely a better option?

All moot as Cooney had a toe offside but still some weird decisions all round.

[hugonaut]

I hear what you are saying on backrow forwards. Game time has never really been an issue at Leinster. The nature of the position is so attritional that players are regularly injured and/or rotated. That being said, the production line recently has been freakishly good.

Absolutely, on both counts.

Leinster 2019 backrow injuries:
1. Leavy: https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rug ... 14663.html [knee surgery]
2. Conan: https://www.the42.ie/jack-conan-leinste ... 6-Oct2019/ [foot surgery]
3. Will Connors: https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/rugby- ... n-14706498 [2018 ACL surgery]
4. Penny: https://www.the42.ie/scott-penny-should ... 2-Jun2019/ [double shoulder surgery]
5. van der Flier: https://www.the42.ie/josh-van-der-flier ... 5-Apr2019/ [groin surgery]
6. Ruddock: https://www.balls.ie/rugby/rhys-ruddock ... ons-406106 [hamstring]
7. Doris: https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/squad-inju ... to-france/ [concussion]
8. Josh Murphy: https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/injury-upd ... up-action/ [concussion]
9. Miracle Max Deegan: did not officially miss a game due to injury in 2019.

That's just one year.

The backrow is dangerously attritional. We've got a really strong corps of players from whom the coaches aren't worried about selecting anybody, we vary selections week-to-week, we limit gametime, we've great player welfare and we still suffer a horrific injury rate.

[ronk]

I wasn’t a fan of the way Osborne gave up on Cooney after the intercept.

You could see Ulster lining it up a few times before they actually got one, think they might have known when we were getting ready to launch one of those big carriers like that, especially because they had people waiting to make the tackle as well as go for the intercept.

I was annoyed at this too, what was he at?

Don't think he would've caught Cooney but he was close enough to at least join JOB in the chase.

Cooney showed a fair turn of foot though. JOB is fast and was fresh and still couldn't make up much ground on him.

I was a little confused by this too, but a different aspect of it. JOB was close enough 30 yards out to at least make a grab at Cooney's ankles. He didn't get any closer and then tackled him when he was going over the line, which only showed he had been close enough for the previous 30 yards. Maybe Cooney has a Christian Cullen goose step and would have evaded him but surely a better option?

All moot as Cooney had a toe offside but still some weird decisions all round.

Maybe he thought he would catch him. He did enough that it took a 2nd effort to ground the ball.

Anyway trying the tap tackle let's Cooney score under the posts for an easy conversion.

[Blueberry]

Posted on MFans after the game

Honestly, if Leinser manage to keep the bulk of the younger talent coming thru while keeping the guys like Ruddock, JVDF, both Porter and Furlong, re-sign Sexton, etc, the other provinces should demand an opening of the books b/c something wouldn't be right. Most, if not all of Leinster's B team could be starting elsewhere in Europe, there's no way their budget isn't outsized compared to the other provinces, and that isn't right. If that's the case,that their budget is far above the others, be open about it, but it would sort of cheapen their success.

Bitter?

Munster lose money, we don't. Our model is built on the academy and strong commercial practice not big money imports, lot of the lads who played this weekend would not be on big money. When things become unbalanced players leave, we retain the best of them that's why the model is so successful.

Bit much really for someone from Munster to complain about financial irregularites given hat the IRFU wrote of the mortgage on their stadium partly because they were too precious to sell the naming rights.

+ 1 - It is just miserable jealousy, some of the comments on here are pathetic........................really at this stage it's becoming pathetic, nicking players, buying in half of SA etc etc......Munster have made their own bed and need to lie in it now - if 5-7 years ago they had rebuilt and prioritized their academy and only playing local talent instead of endless quick fixes maybe just maybe they might be in a better place on the pitch and at least they could cheer on a local team and have a bit of self respect............and maybe provided some talent to the Irish team too.

Hats off to Leinster - a phenomenal achievement, without a doubt the single most impressive club rugby team in the world..........would be lovely if the Munster brigade looked for a bit of inspiration and motivation rather than bitterness. In reverse after 2006 & 2008 when Munster were riding high we didn't get bitter - we got even and used the bloody awful hidings as motivation, still remember that day in 2009 when we won the first HC and it felt like something special was about to happen and bloody hell it was......you don't get anything like this level of bitterness from Connacht or Ulster fans.....

Hope we stuff them on Friday..............again......

[paddyor]

Munster lose money, we don't.

Is Leinster Rugby a profitable entity in its own right?

How many Rugby clubs are profitable entities?

[Morf]

Munster lose money, we don't.

Is Leinster Rugby a profitable entity in its own right?

How many Rugby clubs are profitable entities?

Do Exeter without their convention centre count?

[paddyor]

Also Birch made an interesting point on de telly, when referring to this very aspect and the possibility last year of Will Connors moving to Connacht. Jackman reckons - and I too have long believed - that ambitious Leinster players, who've come through the academy etc. would prefer to be getting their five or six starts with a successful Leinster - and the best of training, S&C, living in your native province, studying in UCD, etc. etc. - than 10 or 15 in some other less successful club where they know no one and would only be journeymen. Last night and the opposition involved, with nearly half the Ulster team former Leinster players, was the proof of that particular pudding, IMO.

An underappreciated element in this IMO is that much as the IRFU might want more players to move they don't want to have to pay them anymore than they already do. And a big part of that is they don't have the money to do it. It's one thing to do it for a "marquee" player like Joey Carbery or bumping an academy player to a development deal like Salanoa, but looking to shift a half or a dozen senior pros over 2-3 years every couple of years? It gets expensive PDQ. It's not a one time expense and it will have an effect on wages across the board. I'd love to know how much of Rugby Australia's bankruptcy was self inflicted wage inflation.

[ronk]

We’ll see over the coming season. A disrupted season makes it easy to run another lap and decide later.

Connors was getting near international teams and was early in development. He’s more obviously a target for Munster now as he’s proven enough that a new coach will adapt to his strengths.

Munster haven’t changed one little bit. Lots of fans will tell you that Synman and de Allende were necessary after the HC failure. The deal was in the Times in November. Munster brought in Haley and Gallagher; rising Prem players with experience and market value. Then they went for Daly as the main guy. Fair enough Salanoa is injured, but he wasn’t gonna get called anyway and Leinster just gave a debut to a younger tighthead.

Munster have plenty of young backrow talent. They shouldn’t be any more likely to sign a backrow than we are.