Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

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munster#1
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Re: Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by munster#1 »

Keith wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 8:47 pm
munster#1 wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 7:28 pm
Keith wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 6:50 pm

They asked the IRFU to push the move? I never said nobody had left, read what was wrote.
Ok, I get what you wrote, but not really sure of the relevance? Are you now saying that they may wish to leave, but won’t go to the irfu for permission?
How did you link a player going to the irfu demanding a transfer, with your point that Leinster can keep all 3 happy?

Fairly sure, like others before them, if any player wanted to leave they would be on their way to Cullen’s office rather than Farrell’s.

Again, if Leinster manage to keep them all happy, then more power too them, but I would question the players mentality if any of those 3 are happy to be playing for the Leinster A team just to avoid leaving Leinster.
How in the world are you getting that from what I wrote???
So rather than having a he said/ she said type of conversation, can you please explain what you meant when you made the statement that you can’t think of any players who have ran to the IRFU looking for a move to another province recently?

What is the relevance of that statement?
Because you are not denying that players have looked for transfers to other provinces recently right?

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munster#1
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Re: Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by munster#1 »

Jonny tight lips wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 9:06 pm
munster#1 wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 7:28 pm
Keith wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 6:50 pm

They asked the IRFU to push the move? I never said nobody had left, read what was wrote.
Ok, I get what you wrote, but not really sure of the relevance? Are you now saying that they may wish to leave, but won’t go to the irfu for permission?
How did you link a player going to the irfu demanding a transfer, with your point that Leinster can keep all 3 happy?

Fairly sure, like others before them, if any player wanted to leave they would be on their way to Cullen’s office rather than Farrell’s.

Again, if Leinster manage to keep them all happy, then more power too them, but I would question the players mentality if any of those 3 are happy to be playing for the Leinster A team just to avoid leaving Leinster.
If they think that if they are the best they will get to play and back themselves to be the best there is no reason why they would need to leave. People thought Will Connors had too many in front of him and tried to send him off west but he stayed and look at him now.
Definitely, in the short term that will be the case, and again, if Leinster can keep all 3 players motivated enough to stay long term, then massive credit has to go to Leinster.

Such a great predicament to have.

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Serb
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Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by Serb »

The reality here is that Leinster have an abundance of back row talent and you can be sure that that will be spread across the provinces come the summer. Players may not ask for it, they may not even want it, but it will happen.

The argument about how attritional 7 is works both for and against us. Munster have Hodnett coming though, looks class, but... 7 is attritional. Gonna need another to back him up. Welcome aboard Scott Penny.

We’ll likely be “allowed” keep two top tier players in each slot. It’s the reason we’ve experimented so much with Doris and Deegan in 6 and 7 even though they’re both probably most suited to 8. Leo and Stu know this is coming.

The way I see it, the primary players look like:

6: Doris, Ruddock
7: van der Flier, Connors, Leavy
8: Deegan, Conan

I think anyone beyond that is in danger of being moved on. Penny’s contract expires in the summer. You can 100% guarantee an offer from Munster will be tabled, it’ll be sweetened somehow, maybe an Ireland cap in an autumn international against Romania, he will be pushed hard to accept it.

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Re: Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by riocard911 »

riocard911 wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 7:55 pm
If I knew playing Leinster A put me one injury away from playing in a Heino final, as opposed to joining another province, thereby lessening my chances of involvement in such a scenario, then I might prefer to stay put.

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ronk
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Re: Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by ronk »

Having lost Deegan for the season, just as Leavy was coming back we have ended up with a pool of 8 again.

Munster have 7 backrowers supplying half the internationals right now and can draw on Beirne and Wycherley. They also have Hodnett from the academy who should be getting loads of game time soon.

They would probably not be interested in Murphy and might not be a good fit for Penny.

If he moved, Penny would be another Nick McCarthy to them

Jonny tight lips
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Re: Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by Jonny tight lips »

Not interested..... I think they had 5 senior 9s when they went after McCarthy. They had to get rid of Parker to make space to go after a leinster tighthead. They had more 10s than us when to chased down Joey.

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Re: Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by Oldschool »

Jonny tight lips wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 3:58 pm
Not interested..... I think they had 5 senior 9s when they went after McCarthy. They had to get rid of Parker to make space to go after a leinster tighthead. They had more 10s than us when to chased down Joey.
That a quantity rather than quality issue.
They therefore need to be a little more astute in their signings of both players and coaches.
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Re: Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by backrower8 »

They need, simply, to develop the ability to develop players. Either their own or anyone they sign.

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munster#1
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Re: Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by munster#1 »

backrower8 wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 8:28 pm
They need, simply, to develop the ability to develop players. Either their own or anyone they sign.
I think this is more a discussion for how Leinster handle this situation.
Leinster may be forced to chose the route the take with regards to the 7 jersey.

What Munster want, or how they handle their player development shouldn’t even get a mention in this discussion.

Great position to be in, but a difficult one all the same.

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ronk
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Re: Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by ronk »

munster#1 wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 10:28 pm
backrower8 wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 8:28 pm
They need, simply, to develop the ability to develop players. Either their own or anyone they sign.
I think this is more a discussion for how Leinster handle this situation.
Leinster may be forced to chose the route the take with regards to the 7 jersey.

What Munster want, or how they handle their player development shouldn’t even get a mention in this discussion.

Great position to be in, but a difficult one all the same.
If Munster had been able to do player development there wouldn't have been anything to discuss.

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Re: Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by wixfjord »

ronk wrote:
October 26th, 2020, 2:49 pm


If Munster had been able to do player development there wouldn't have been anything to discuss.
That doesn't change the root of the issue though - we've a conveyor belt of talented back rows who all need game time. One is bound to make the (fairly logical) choice to move at some stage, particularly if he's 'guided' to.

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munster#1
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Re: Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by munster#1 »

wixfjord wrote:
October 26th, 2020, 3:35 pm
ronk wrote:
October 26th, 2020, 2:49 pm


If Munster had been able to do player development there wouldn't have been anything to discuss.
That doesn't change the root of the issue though - we've a conveyor belt of talented back rows who all need game time. One is bound to make the (fairly logical) choice to move at some stage, particularly if he's 'guided' to.
Well said, I think some posters just can’t believe that not everything comes down to how rubbish Munster are.

Even using the term issue nearly seems inappropriate here, as it is far from an issue when you have an over supply of quality players.

Even if one or more of these players don’t move on, you then create an issue of a bottle neck, where you will have to force your up and coming open sides to try to convert position.

This will be a very enviable headache for Leinster to have, but a headache none the less.

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ronk
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Re: Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by ronk »

wixfjord wrote:
October 26th, 2020, 3:35 pm
ronk wrote:
October 26th, 2020, 2:49 pm


If Munster had been able to do player development there wouldn't have been anything to discuss.
That doesn't change the root of the issue though - we've a conveyor belt of talented back rows who all need game time. One is bound to make the (fairly logical) choice to move at some stage, particularly if he's 'guided' to.
Supply and demand. The equilibrium is determined by both.

We’ve seen players move to positions where there is more depth than what they were leaving.

Nucofora won’t be shifting Penny to Connacht or to Ulster (Jordi Murphy). The biggest factor in whether we can hold onto Penny is whether Munster develop Hodnett.

If it’s a straight shootout between us and an overseas club then I think we can back ourselves if we want to keep Penny. He’s due to get a load of starts for us and the ascension of Connors (& Doris) actually strengthens his position vis-a-vis game time in the medium term. By extension also in the long term.

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Re: Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by wixfjord »

Listen I understand the desire to get a dig in at Munster or Nucifora, but the reality is we have enormous inbuilt advantages, compounded by brilliant coaching. So we can't expect to keep every guy who comes through, nor can we expect them all to be happy to sit on the bench (if even that).

"The biggest factor in whether we can hold onto Penny is whether Munster develop Hodnett." eh?

Well I mean what about if Scott Penny decides he wants to leave for more game time?!

Again, you're falling into the trap of thinking Nucifora is the only one making the decision here.
Last edited by wixfjord on October 26th, 2020, 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by wixfjord »

Also what players moved to a position where there's more depth than what they left?

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Re: Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by neiliog93 »

Most (not all) young Leinster players who've moved have not done that well. Any promising young Leinster players currently getting even some game time here should remember that. They have a good chance of unseating established starters at Leinster over the next 1-2 years (see what happened to Jordi Murphy in the back row). Staying is more likely than leaving to lead to both better development of their ability, and better career outcomes.
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Re: Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by hugonaut »

wixfjord wrote:
October 26th, 2020, 6:32 pm
Also what players moved to a position where there's more depth than what they left?
Arguably Nick McCarthy? Comfortably third choice here when he decided to leave [and getting plenty of games] and at best third choice when he arrived in Munster [and got fewer games].

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Re: Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by wixfjord »

hugonaut wrote:
October 26th, 2020, 7:38 pm
wixfjord wrote:
October 26th, 2020, 6:32 pm
Also what players moved to a position where there's more depth than what they left?
Arguably Nick McCarthy? Comfortably third choice here when he decided to leave [and getting plenty of games] and at best third choice when he arrived in Munster [and got fewer games].
He was the one I thought of, but you could argue he was third choice here behind a guy who wasn't getting into many Irish 23s and JGP who was due to become IQ.

In Munster he moved to be second choice behind Murray. Mathewson's extension was the red herring. As you mention, when he arrived at Munster he was third choice, but when he made the deal Mathewson was due to be gone.

He clearly made the wrong choice in hindsight (and partly down to maybe overrating himself or being shafted by Munster who extended Alby) but at the time it made total sense.

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Re: Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by munster#1 »

Another thing to consider is if having 4 7s is financially viable in the current climate.

Leinster currently have a 47 man squad, which is a considerable size, and given the calibre of players in that 47 man squad, you’d imagine that it is not cheap to maintain.

Leinster like the other 3 provinces are going to have to cut their salary bill over the next 24 months.
With some players likely to come off of central contracts in that time, will having so many 7s make any sense?

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Re: Zebre at home, 23 Oct. 19:35

Post by ronk »

wixfjord wrote:
October 26th, 2020, 6:31 pm
Listen I understand the desire to get a dig in at Munster or Nucifora, but the reality is we have enormous inbuilt advantages, compounded by brilliant coaching. So we can't expect to keep every guy who comes through, nor can we expect them all to be happy to sit on the bench (if even that).

"The biggest factor in whether we can hold onto Penny is whether Munster develop Hodnett." eh?

Well I mean what about if Scott Penny decides he wants to leave for more game time?!

Again, you're falling into the trap of thinking Nucifora is the only one making the decision here.
I wasn’t having a dig at Nucifora (this time) and I’m saying that Munster have the ability to develop the talent they already have. Nucifora is always part of the decision, provinces have to get permission for all contracts.

The advantages that you refer to support the idea of players staying at Leinster rather than moving. If Penny wanted to leave, his destination would be determined by a number of factors including the need at the position of clubs looking to sign him.

Deegan played 7 a fair few times for Leinster in spite of our supposed depth.

Munster had 5 outhalves when Carbery arrived. They had to clear out 2 scrum halves to make room for McCarthy (& they still extended Mathewson). It’s a bit of a stretch but with the amount of international rugby that Furlong and Porter are due to play then 5th choice tight head at Leinster is at least as good as 4th choice at Munster. And Munster released Parker and signed Salanoa. The net effect to Irish rugby was the loss of a young player (reprieve through rare good fortune), and Knox has missed out.

What would be the benefit to Irish rugby if Munster cut bait on Hodnett to sign a shiny Penny?

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